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Suicide to avoid killing blows


pandetta

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I recently came back to the game after stepping away and I remember why I dislike a portion of the community that plays gsf. When you have a lock and they are being targeted, select players rather than die by your hand will suicide into the nearest object and rob you of the kill. They then respawn in the game with no penalty robbing you of any killing blow medals you may have achieved. I tried to get a couple of my friends into gsf and after they witnessed this they were like what is the point of playing if they cant get the rep to raise their ships.. Lets be honest why would new players be interested if they only get a portion of what they should get? I would say that suicide should have a negative effect. So we only do it on multiple incidents, that way if someone suicides on accident its not a real big deal. but if its their second or third why not have them sit out for like 30 seconds WHICH IS HUGE.

 

Why did this become a thing anyway? hey instead of a community where we want people to play and enjoy their time we are going to nerf their ability to gather the resources. Keep the rich richer and those new players dont need the upgrades.

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Its a thing, and always has been.

 

Like a person bent on throwing a game because they are mad, by self destructing 30 times in a TDM.

 

None of that will change, its been brought to the attention of swtor many times.

 

Self destructers are reported, and nothing seems to happen to them. I imagine its along the lines of, its their ships they can do what they want.

 

That mentality mostly is spiteful acting out, plain and simple.

 

What you could do is remember who they are, and get a DO and kill them before they self destruct, or use slicing to prevent them form using engine, while also draining engine power. Then, they cant get away.

 

But yeah it isnt going away. And its not like everyone is doing it. Like self destructing to throw a match isnt an every day occurrence, it does happen time to time during a week.

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This is indeed quite common, but I am not sure if it is intentional or just a desperate maneuver in a tight spot.

 

Lets be honest why would new players be interested if they only get a portion of what they should get?

 

However, unless you have not managed to hit the enemy except locking that missile, you will get an assist for the self-destruct, which gives you the same requisition as a kill.

 

Hard to see that there is a problem here.

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There's quite a bit wrong here, and other stuff that is merely irrational opinion.

 

I recently came back to the game after stepping away and I remember why I dislike a portion of the community that plays gsf. When you have a lock and they are being targeted, select players rather than die by your hand will suicide into the nearest object and rob you of the kill.

 

This is an irrational opinion. If someone is so helpless that their only way of trying to get under your skin is by attacking the scoreboard stats (instead of you, or the game state), then you have done far more damage than a mere killing blow could ever do.

 

It's far more preferable for someone to self destruct what would be your killing blow, and I'll explain why.

 

The phenomena you describe is absolutely real: in our group, we call it "getting their soul". See, if you blow up some ship, you got their "body"- their ship exploded, and it will respawn. But if they self destruct instead of allowing the killing blow to happen, then they gave you their soul- not only did they blow themselves up (instead of you having to do it), they exposed their absolute and utter irrationality and tilt. We call this out in voice and sometimes track souls for the night.

 

Keep in mind when tracking souls though: it has to actually be a soul. If someone has barrel roll and takes too tight a turn around a rock trying to get a clear barrel and dies by hitting the rock, that doesn't count- they were trying to live. Likewise if someone does a bad power dive instead of taking a point blank proton- they were rolling the dice from their point of view. It's only a soul if they literally were concerned about dying and chose to self destruct instead.

 

I'll get back to this part here later, but know that your anger is not rational- you're getting angry about the "map" (the scoreboard) and not the "territory" (the game state). These two are not the same!

 

They then respawn in the game with no penalty robbing you of any killing blow medals you may have achieved.

 

It's true that the Onslaught devs were not aware of how GSF medals are never to be keyed off for any game rewards (unlike Warzone medals), and that, in fact, you can end up with fewer medals now (but trust me, enemies giving you souls has been around for long before that- since somewhat near the beginning, really). But note that assists often give medals as well, and in any event these things are a rounding error when it comes to handing out conquest. You are likely incorrect to be concerned about this. And the internal satisfaction of seeing an enemy have to dash HIMSELF into a rock instead of allowing the scoreboard to record a kill is truly sublime. He had no hope, in that moment, and you did that to him. What could be better? Could you imagine setting out to design a game where an enemy would willingly humiliate himself when you had bested him, instead of shrugging and moving on? I wouldn't know where to begin! Yet, here we are.

 

I tried to get a couple of my friends into gsf and after they witnessed this they were like what is the point of playing if they cant get the rep to raise their ships..

 

Nah, this didn't happen. This is both a lie, and wrong, simultaneously.

First I'll break down why it is wrong. If you dealt any damage to a target, such as with a laser, then you will get an assist. Assists give the exact same bonus as kills. The only time you'll ever see less requisition from a soul-giving player is if you never even once land a shot- which should be a very rare occurrance, not worth sweating, not worth noticing, and definitely not worth three or more players (you and "a couple" of your friends) getting worked up over.

 

Which brings us to my second point, why it is a lie. GSF has a bunch of things that are very hard to learn when getting in to the game- even knowing when an enemy is in range is kind of an acquired skill. Players that are so tilted that they willing hand out souls left and right all game happens every night, sure, but it doesn't happen every kill. It's not like endemic- most players will not veer off and lunge into rocks the moment that they think they are doomed, instead trying to use that time to escape, get a break back, get a heal, damage you, or occupy you (all correct actions for a foe). I get more souls playing on my mains than on my alts, but even then, it's never a majority of targets.

 

The most realistically imaginable version of your claimed scenario- that you and two others started playing, and all three noticed the same guy who would give you souls (which it is criminal that you did not appreciate and savor, by the way), and all three of you didn't understand at all how requisition is handed out, and that two of them quit, and you made this post- is still too hard for me to believe. It's just too far fetched. But to whatever extent your equally confused friends exist, be sure to let them know that kills and assists grant the exact same amount of requisition, and furthermore, let them know that the majority of requisition in this game comes from neither kills, nor assists, and that no one is unable to gear their ships as a result of such a rounding error.

 

 

Lets be honest why would new players be interested if they only get a portion of what they should get?

 

Incorrect, they get everything. Only in the event that the ONLY interaction was launching a missile would they be denied anything- and generally, if that's all you did, you probably didn't earn a full kill's worth of req or whatever anyway. Shoot a laser bro!

 

I would say that suicide should have a negative effect. So we only do it on multiple incidents, that way if someone suicides on accident its not a real big deal. but if its their second or third why not have them sit out for like 30 seconds WHICH IS HUGE.

 

A penalty for repeat self destructs would actually help the game, but not for any req-related reason. Players who self destruct repeatedly (to throw the game) can be reported, and Bioware will eventually go through their entire slow process of disciplining players (normally this goes under "win trading", but it's the broad category of pvp play that cannot be countered because the players pvping against you are on YOUR team, which the rules of the game prevent). Adding a penalty for repeat self destructs in a small window of time would act to stop games being thrown by these players.

 

But that's not what you mean- you want a player who gives you a soul, then four minutes later, runs into a rock (either on purpose or by accident) to get a penalty. This would not be great- new players tend to die by landing on rocks more often than other causes, and it would not be pleasing to have to keep a mental calculus when evading a missile, knowing that if you turn too tightly and hit the rock, you may face a respawn penalty. On top of this, you can force a non-soulgranting player into self destructs reasonably often by tricking them into a bad dive, a bad retro, or even using EMP + sab probe, removing his ability to change his heading. None of these are souls, of course- the player was doing his best to harry and destroy you, as is his duty as a red ship, and you simply outplayed him.

 

So I wouldn't want it implemented just over a silly non-real issue like "some players demonstrate their oh-so superior tactics by blowing themselves up on rocks". If you really absolutely had to ask for a change here, I can already tell you what to agitate for: ask for self-destructs to be a sortable field on the primary scoreboard, next to deaths.

 

Why did this become a thing anyway?

 

Some players are so terrible you can crawl under their skin just by playing. And it's amazing

 

hey instead of a community where we want people to play and enjoy their time we are going to nerf their ability to gather the resources. Keep the rich richer and those new players dont need the upgrades.

 

Nah, none of that is true. A self destructor doesn't make you get less upgrades, resources, or any other thing.

 

 

All they do is give you more soul.

Edited by Verain
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SOULHUNTER BUILDS

====================

Strikes

To get souls as a Type 1 Strike, I recommend any piledriver build you enjoy, plus a concussion missile instead of a proton torpedo.

(Piledriver here: https://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=944782 )

 

To get souls as a Type 2 Strike is one of the easiest, but cluster / concussion or any build with EMP seem very good at it. Protons also work here.

 

To get souls as a Type 3 Strike, obviously, select remote slicing and proton torpedo.

 

As a strike fighter, your primary method for getting souls is to get a lock on a soul-granting target, usually one who suspects you have proton torpedo (rightly or wrongly). Concussion missile is excellent at this, as it has a tone that sounds very similar in pacing to proton, but in practice locks fast enough, and with a huge arc, to be much easier to lock than proton. A soul-granting target with a concussion on him may well believe he has a proton lock on him. In normal play, if a target has a break available, you will hold the lock on him for awhile, to try to get him to use the break, or move away- to get a soul, a target usually has to have no break, but consider holding the lock anyway, as it will give a potential soul-granter more time to find a rock to bash his own head out with. The entire play with the type 1 and type 2 strikes is to make him convinced that a proton is coming, and the concussion makes this easier than an actual proton. By contrast, as a type 3 strike, you will want to slice him (obviously), and then move at him with the proton, such that the distance you release will be very short. This will make him more likely to dash himself into a wall, as once the proton is released, he will have almost no time react if the launch is short range or point blank, and he will know this.

To be clear:

1- The most hilarious souls are the one where your only lock is an EMP, cluster, or other low damage missile.

2- Almost as hilarious is the non-missile- where you slice a target, fly to point blank range, and don't even release the missile as they bash their own head in with a rock. Sometimes it even takes them two tries, which is vastly more hilarious than anything, but you can't really control for this case.

3- A step down in hilarity, but still very amusing, is the soul granted from a concussion missile- the piledriver usually wants a concussion for raw damage purposes, or easier locks (that's why I play with a concussion on piledriver usually, but the soul piece becomes clear after a few nights of play- I still just prefer the fast acting easy lock though), but can often spook soul-granters into walls because they think it is proton.

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====================

Gunships

To get souls as a Gunship is very difficult- even the missile bearing gunships spend a lot of their time on railguns. Gunships are the worst ship for getting souls, but bringing plasma railgun can sometimes accomplish this. I wouldn't recommend this as a primary goal- simply be happy if someone self destructs a possible railshot (which could ALWAYS miss from evasion anyway), or burst laser cannon or something.

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====================

Scouts

By far the best weapon for getting souls on a scout is the EMP missile. Though it feels similar, the type 1 scout doing EMP Field into sabotage probe isn't the same- forcing an opponent into a vector from where he has no escape is a standard attack that meets a standard end, not an opponent willingly going over and doing your bidding. But, don't despair, battlescout pilots! Simply holding a cluster lock and landing a few bursts is enough to tilt some soul-granting players. The scout doesn't have as many options here as the strike, as, similar to gunships, they have a ton of burst and less tactical tricks... but it's a very close second.

As a note, you can get souls with a thermite, but you often have to shoot them enough to get them low and stop shooting as they go for a rock. Most of the time an enemy can survive a thermite, and knows it (and will not give you the soul). But watch for allied ships with protons- it's possible that they will confuse your equivalent lock for the proton and give you the soul regardless.

---

 

====================

Bombers

Sadly, I know of no reliable way to get souls as a bomber. EMP Field + Proton can work on a type 3 bomber, very similar to slicing + proton on a clarion, but it's harder to fly and has less of the resources to make this work. It's not inconceivable for a scout to self destruct some seeker mines as a type 2 bomber, but (a) it's hard to be sure it's a soul in these cases, it often is just regular defensive flying, which doesn't count and (b) because bombers can't apply pressure directly, tiltable soul-granters will often not fly into an area you have warded. It's rare to get a soul as a bomber, but when it does happen, you get a few new iron hairs on your chest, so don't give up!

Edited by Verain
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Here's a point people are missing: if you know you're going to die to a protorp DoT or something, it's faster to ram the nearest wall. It has nothing at all to do with the person who killed me or being mad or anything. It's just about respawning faster. I can't be the only person who does that.
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That sort of thing never bothered me much, the main thing is I had defeated the opponent. If some guy chases me and I lead him to teammates who kill him, I feel just as much satisfaction as if I killed him myself.

 

Every once in a while I see a good player self destruct when missile is going to hit. Maybe they just want to respawn sooner. But I never deliberately do that myself, though I have self destructed taking more chances with missile breaks or tight spaces when being attacked. Sometimes I get lucky and escape. Maybe opponent was using a low damage quick lock missile and I survive with a trail of smoke.

 

I play chess online on my tablet and sometimes an opponent who is clearly lost will do the analog to self destruct by breaking the connection (I see a red bar growing next to their name) to make me wait until it declares me the winner, rather than just resigning. Once or twice opponents on that app have used temporary disconnect as an exploit in a game with a short time limit, such as 5 minutes for each player for the game. They will disconnect for a while, their clock stops, they get more time to think, then they reconnect before they lose the game, giving them a big advantage for fast time controls.

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Here's a point people are missing: if you know you're going to die to a protorp DoT or something, it's faster to ram the nearest wall.

 

Sure, but do you think this is all that common? Given how many SDs I see from non-released missiles or missiles that won't be lethal, I think what you are describing is reasonably rare. Certainly, you're correct- if the situation is invariably fatal, dying faster can get you respawned faster- but I think that's a small minority of deliberate SDs.

 

I can't be the only person who does that.

The only person? No, probably not, but I'm pretty sure it's rare. I want to point out that whenever any of us have reasoned "Well, thing X is pretty rational so I'd expect a lot of GSFers would do thing X", a moment later we are standing in a field watching almost every single person do everything but X.

Edited by Verain
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Certainly, you're correct- if the situation is invariably fatal, dying faster can get you respawned faster- but I think that's a small minority of deliberate SDs.

 

It might also be noted that you rarely know you are invariably fatal. It is hard to tell when a missile is going to hit and there are quite a few times when the cooldown of your missile break is finishes just in time to avoid the missile. Maybe you can manage to escape back to your own lines, maybe you can keep an enemy ace occupied for some time more (releasing pressure from the rest of your team). I prefer to take my chances rather than try to spawn a few seconds earlier.

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Sure, but do you think this is all that common? Given how many SDs I see from non-released missiles or missiles that won't be lethal, I think what you are describing is reasonably rare. Certainly, you're correct- if the situation is invariably fatal, dying faster can get you respawned faster- but I think that's a small minority of deliberate SDs.

I'm not exactly sure what DOES determine that respawn timer... Sometimes I can hyper-in right away, and sometimes i have to wait 5-10 seconds. So if you self-destruct to avoid dying to a protorp dot, but you get an unlucky timer, was it really worth it?

 

The only ground warzone that does anything similar is Odessen Proving Grounds, where respawns are sort of batched, though I'm not sure you would know what I am talking about. Ancient Hypergate and Huttball run on cycles, but we can actually see the timer because it shows up on our buff bar ... perhaps GSF is the same thing, and we're just not seeing the timer and the de-facto "gate" preventing us from constantly zerging?

Edited by phalczen
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In my experience only low skill regulars do this. Newbies don't do it because they haven't figured out to do it yet. Medium to high skill players have too much self respect to do it. Only low skill players who have been playing for a decent length of time do it because they cannot abide giving someone the kill. I also do not buy for one second that people do it to spawn quicker. I 100% believe that is a made up reason to justify what is simply denying someone the kill out of spite. On DM there are 2 players well known for doing this, and both of them fit the low skill veteran category.

 

Its a cheap move and the real answer for someone who does this is to learn to get better. Often I know that simply getting lock on them when they are without evade but otherwise at FULL HEALTH is enough for them to ram the nearest rock.

 

But as others have said its so few people doing it that its really not a problem, and its easily turned to your advantage in a TDM.

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Having played maybe 1500 matches on Star Forge, my anecdotal evidence differs greatly from your anecdotal evidence. I mist have seen someone self destruct to avoid getting killed maybe once or twice? I've seen plenty of them self destruct using an engine maneuver to avoid a missile, or just trying to escape trough a tight space (and I do this myself, not to avoid getting killed but because I suck), but intentional self destructs to deny people kills? Very rare.

 

There are people that self destruct as soon as they spawn, to sabotage their team, and they deserve to be reported, but that's a completely different case.

Edited by Urthal
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Here's a point people are missing: if you know you're going to die to a protorp DoT or something, it's faster to ram the nearest wall. It has nothing at all to do with the person who killed me or being mad or anything. It's just about respawning faster. I can't be the only person who does that.

 

I do this. I cannot imagine suiciding to spite someone, that's terrible sportsmanship.

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I do this. I cannot imagine suiciding to spite someone, that's terrible sportsmanship.

 

It amounts to the same thing. You may not intend to rob them off the kill out of spite ( I still don't believe that) but it makes literally no difference. You still deny them the kill. If you're beaten, take it like a man and let them have the kill.

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There are many time I feel that I should just eat a missile instead of using my engine ability. If you get anyone this way you should feel proud.

 

I do deliberately kill myself to respawn faster if I know I'm going to die by a missile & my engine ability will not be available before the missile hits. Such a situation is extremely rare & the missile might get me before I self destruct. A lot of the times that this has happened, It's due to piloting error & I'm not close to cover anyway.

 

A point is a point & a win is a win. They know they lost the encounter & you know you won. You don't need a numbers on a scoreboard to show off.

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  • 2 months later...

Frankly, I love it when people suicide intentionally, because I truly enjoy getting stuff for free, including points. I’ve been playing long enough to know it when I see it, and even though I see it very rarely, it puts a smile on my face. When I queue, I’m going for wins, not just kills. Every self destruct is a point to the other team, at least in TDM. If people do it in a Dom match, hey, they’re no longer in my way.

 

As for new players, gsf is already such a monumental grind. I doubt they’ll notice the slightly increased grind time from the few req points they didn’t get due to the self destruct. It all comes out in the wash.

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  • 4 weeks later...
I don't generally SD on purpose - but if I'm being chased across the map by 3 or more and my team is insanely behind, I just start to experiment, like trying to pull a powerdive that will get me killed if I'm angled wrong but will be slick if I actually survive it.
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  • 4 weeks later...
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