I’m going to qualify this right away by saying that I have only played the stories from the female perspective, doing straight romances. If my view of events is skewed because of that, feel free to point it out. Just be kind

 

It seems to me that the straight female lead is the one who is always suffering the most betrayal in SWTOR (and BioWare games in general), although that changes with the availability of Theron’s romance for everyone. Prior to that, I remember my SW being betrayed by Quinn, her romance option. The female smuggler who pursues any kind of relationship with Darmas likewise gets betrayed. My first Jedi consular was into Tharan Cedrax, but guess what? She got dumped for a hologram. I honestly don’t know if there are any male players who get betrayed by females in their storylines along the way, but I’m pretty sure it doesn’t come from any of their romanceable companions.

 

Anyway, this post isn’t to complain about all of that. I enjoy the stories with all their ups and downs. What I’m trying to say is that I feel like people who don’t experience these betrayals at the level of someone who romanced the character are getting left out. While the betrayals can be frustrating, puzzling, and even infuriating (I’m looking at you, Quinn!), there is no doubt that they add a depth to the story that makes it memorable.

 

For example, I’ve read a whole lot of posts discussing the Crisis on Umbara and its plot twists, with lots of players speculating on whether or not they will kill Theron. There is similar discussion over Quinn, with his betrayal still standing, I think, as one of the most polarizing events in the game.

 

This makes us look deeper into the NPCs in question, trying to second-guess their motives and thought processes, and reveals them to us in a way that we don’t see otherwise. I appreciate stories that have a greater focus on the NPCs, because even though my character is the Alliance Commander, Empress, or whatever, she doesn’t exist in a vacuum. I know her because I play her. I want to know more about my favorite NPCs that I surround her with.

 

On the other hand, it’s become a thing with BioWare writing to betray, or at least give the short end of the stick, to the straight female/gay male. I won’t drift too far out of SWTOR territory, but I want to point out Anders in DA2, the horrible Alistair choices in Origins, and the way a couple of ME2 romances came to abrupt ends in ME3. It’s a pattern, and one that I think needs to be broken. Not only is it a disservice to the players who choose to romance these characters (usually straight females and gay males), but it’s also a disservice to the players who never get to feel that tumultuous aspect of a storyline through their affection for characters who betray them.

 

Share the love, BioWare. Or I guess in this case, share the angst.

 

TL/DR

The current Theron story arc is great, because I’m really into his character and I appreciate the attention his story is getting along with my character’s. I think other players – straight males/gay females – would benefit from having their heart strings plucked the way BioWare always does for their counterparts.

Edited December 5, 2017 by basbaker

I honestly don’t know if there are any male players who get betrayed by females in their storylines along the way, but I’m pretty sure it doesn’t come from any of their romanceable companions.

You mean apart from the Wheezer incident for the Agent?

 

That's ...

 

 

 

(It's worth running that romance all the way to the end of Chapter X of KotFE at least once, because "tender and touching" is about the last word I'd use for it, unlike pretty much all the others(1).)

 

(1) Except for the end of the basic companion story at the end of Chapter Three.

You mean apart from the Wheezer incident for the Agent?

 

That's ...

 

A male agent betrayed by his sorta kinda girlfriend, The Anarchist, Firebrand, The Rattataki, Kaliyo Djannis.

 

 

(It's worth running that romance all the way to the end of Chapter X of KotFE at least once, because "tender and touching" is about the last word I'd use for it, unlike pretty much all the others(1).)

 

(1) Except for the end of the basic companion story at the end of Chapter Three.

 

doesnt she betray you regardless of your gender ? and honestly , compared to others romance..thats not really a betrayer lol

doesnt she betray you regardless of your gender ?

True, but so does the Betrayer of IokathUmbaraCopero.

 

 

 

 

doesnt she betray you regardless of your gender ? and honestly , compared to others romance..thats not really a betrayer lol

 

Quinn also betrays you regardless of your gender. Aaand so does every other example listed here, I think.

 

As for the topic, I feel that the betrayals listed here all made sense when thinking about the character, so imo the question is, who is Bioware not making female characters that have the kind of personality that they might betray you? Or, when they do, why don't they put them in situations where it makes sense to stab you in the back?

 

I kind of hope it's just something they haven't thought of, but I can't help to wonder if the current atmosphere is making it difficult. Fictional characters that are women or represent some sort of minority seem to come under a lot of scrutiny, which imo discourages people from making unpleasant female characters -- and betrayers are usually unpleasant.

Quinn also betrays you regardless of your gender. Aaand so does every other example listed here, I think.

 

As for the topic, I feel that the betrayals listed here all made sense when thinking about the character, so imo the question is, who is Bioware not making female characters that have the kind of personality that they might betray you? Or, when they do, why don't they put them in situations where it makes sense to stab you in the back?

 

I kind of hope it's just something they haven't thought of, but I can't help to wonder if the current atmosphere is making it difficult. Fictional characters that are women or represent some sort of minority seem to come under a lot of scrutiny, which imo discourages people from making unpleasant female characters -- and betrayers are usually unpleasant.

 

You're right - they all betray your character regardless of gender. What I was getting at is that the ones I mentioned are most likely to be romanced by straight women and gay men, which I think gives the betrayals more impact for those specific players. I do seriously wonder why it's never the female NPC involved in a romance with a male character that behaves this way - Kaliyo is a stretch for me, btw, because you find out about her activities and resolve the situation with her firmly on your side in the course of one encounter.

 

Maybe you're right about the minorities being more scrutinized these days, with people just waiting to read something into the most innocent of actions. Maybe I'm reading into things! Or maybe not, because I can think of plenty of games where antagonists are women.

 

Would straight guys and gay women have more of a problem being betrayed by their romance option than straight women and gay guys? I have no idea. Like you, I hope it's just something they haven't thought of.

Fictional characters that are women or represent some sort of minority seem to come under a lot of scrutiny, which imo discourages people from making unpleasant female characters -- and betrayers are usually unpleasant.

Discourages? Yes. Prevents? No. Not in this game, anyway.

* Darth Lachris (a better match for the male SW than either Vette or DSJ, but in no way a nice person)

* Darth Zash

* Leontyne Saresh

* Vaylin

* Kaliyo (she isn't what anyone sane would call *pleasant*).

* DSJ

* the Lady of Pain (one of the Imp class stories on Tatooine)(1)

 

(1) Not to be confused with the Mistress of Pain, the true name of the being commonly called RNGesus.

Female NPCs betraying you used to be Bioware's thing. It happened in both Neverwinter Nights and KOTOR, before they got on a kick of party members dying instead. It pops up again in Dragon Age and Mass Effect somewhat, but those are depending choices you make in the game and if you don't complete loyalty missions. Edited January 2, 2018 by FarSide

Not sure I'd count Tharan as a betrayer. One of the options starting off that possible romance is "What about Holiday."

The problem with saying "let lesbians have their heartstrings plucked the same way" - I would entirely agree with you IF there were more than one F/F love interest in the game. Making the only F/F NPC a betrayer would be pretty cr***y. I don't want to hear "well, but for gay men..." because it's actually possible to play through the story without one of them betraying you at all (easy peasy - don't blow up the Spire. Two convo choices) and the other looks as though he might be undercover and saving the day.

 

Also, three points:

 

1. Every traitor is a traitor regardless of the player's gender or if they are being romanced - so men and lesbians playing through the SW story get shafted by Quinn, too, for instance. No, it might not be a romantic thing, but if one's developed a rapport with that character it's still a kick in the teeth.

 

2. There have been several female love interests who *have* betrayed: Kailyo, Ashara (who tells the Jedi the player is going to be somewhere and has them ambushed) and one could argue Elara Dorne if the player chooses to side with the Empire on Iokath.

 

3. There ARE many female NPCs who have betrayed during the game. Off the top of my head:

- Lord Zash, which can have a huge impact on the player because she is their central quest giver and up until that point, she is presented as a benevolent, kindly mentor.

- SCORPIO. whose betrayal is so huge that it nearly takes down the entire Alliance.

- Senya. Yes, you can save her but the fact remains that she screws you over in KOTFE 16 by rescuing the person you tried to kill.

- The woman from House Cortez in the Agent story

Edited January 3, 2018 by IoNonSoEVero

Ashara (who tells the Jedi the player is going to be somewhere and has them ambushed)

For the record, this won't happen if you go full light side.

...Prior to that, I remember my SW being betrayed by Quinn, her romance option.

He betrays you regardless of character sex. His betrayal is part of the Warrior storyline (he was put up to it by Darth Baras), not the Quinn romance storyline.

For the record, this won't happen if you go full light side.

 

Wow, really? Good to know. My SI is always very kind to Ashara (not full light side, but really nice to her) and I've never had the scene without the Jedi there.

Wow, really? Good to know. My SI is always very kind to Ashara (not full light side, but really nice to her) and I've never had the scene without the Jedi there.

Oh, the Jedi will always be there, but you can be totally honest about everything and say that you need to go to the site to grab the ghost, so you'll be expecting to meet them there; however, they're the only ones who turn on you, not Ashara.

Oh, the Jedi will always be there, but you can be totally honest about everything and say that you need to go to the site to grab the ghost, so you'll be expecting to meet them there; however, they're the only ones who turn on you, not Ashara.

 

Aha, I see. Ashara herself has never full out turned on me when I've been in that scene, but my SI did *not* know the Jedi were waiting for her. Ashara said something like, "I had to tell the Jedi you were coming!" and then got mad at me when I defeated them.

Aha, I see. Ashara herself has never full out turned on me when I've been in that scene, but my SI did *not* know the Jedi were waiting for her. Ashara said something like, "I had to tell the Jedi you were coming!" and then got mad at me when I defeated them.

With mine, she was upset, but not actually mad at me, given that it was self-defense.

Wasn't there a Jedi master who turned out to be a sith spy in one of the sith stories on Corellia?

With mine, she was upset, but not actually mad at me, given that it was self-defense.

 

I have a SIN coming up, and I'm going to see if I can get that reaction from Ashara too. In my case, she has yelled at my SI for killing the Jedi, and when my SI tried to explain that *they* attacked *her* and it was self defense, Ashara's response was something like "don't even give me that, you tried to recruit me to the Dark Side!"

 

Ashara and my SI were pals, though, despite that rocky start. I really like that the game allows you to have some pretty in-depth conversations about the Sith Code and philosophy with her, and that by the end of the SI story, as a result of those conversations, she's become a good friend and opened her mind to a more grey way of thinking about the Force.

I have a SIN coming up, and I'm going to see if I can get that reaction from Ashara too. In my case, she has yelled at my SI for killing the Jedi, and when my SI tried to explain that *they* attacked *her* and it was self defense, Ashara's response was something like "don't even give me that, you tried to recruit me to the Dark Side!"

 

Ashara and my SI were pals, though, despite that rocky start. I really like that the game allows you to have some pretty in-depth conversations about the Sith Code and philosophy with her, and that by the end of the SI story, as a result of those conversations, she's become a good friend and opened her mind to a more grey way of thinking about the Force.

 

My SI always wavers around Dark 1 and Ashara has never turned on her. And if I remember correctly, she actually fights with the SI when the Jedi attack...and then she's like "ONOES, WHAT HAVE I DONE?"

 

But yes, contrary to what a lot of people seem to think of her, Ashara is one of my favorite companions. She plays wonderfully off of a SI and has some amazing conversation topics.

Edited January 5, 2018 by Dracofish

My SI always wavers around Dark 1 and Ashara has never turned on her. And if I remember correctly, she actually fights with the SI when the Jedi attack...and then she's like "ONOES, WHAT HAVE I DONE?"

 

But yes, contrary to what a lot of people seem to think of her, Ashara is one of my favorite companions. She plays wonderfully off of a SI and has some amazing conversation topics.

 

It seems like there are a lot of different reactions for Ashara in that scene - more than I knew about, for sure. I don't think my SI fought with her, and after the thing with the Jedi, Ashara helped her get the ghost, but she did have a little freakout when she realized she had pretty much just alienated herself from the Jedi. My SI is also aligned DS (she makes LS or DS choices, but I just left the alignment at DS and since one gets alignment points from everything...) and Ashara was cool with that.

 

Ashara's one of my favorites too and I'm sorry they haven't had her come back into the story yet. I thought they could have an interesting chapter with her in KOTFE/KOTET. IMHO she's a really nuanced character who's wrestling with a lot because she's faced with a major paradigm shift, and if the SI treats her like a person and actually discusses things with her, they end up building a good friendship.

Wasn't there a Jedi master who turned out to be a sith spy in one of the sith stories on Corellia?

 

You're right. Can't remember the name, but she was one of Darth Baras's operatives.

You're right. Can't remember the name, but she was one of Darth Baras's operatives.

Master Injaye.

There is a female betrayer in the game - her letter to the Outlander is awful, one of my guild mates is really unhappy about this - DS Jaesa. Not sure if she has another man in her life ( i wouldn't blame her if she moved on..) .

There is a female betrayer in the game - her letter to the Outlander is awful, one of my guild mates is really unhappy about this - DS Jaesa. Not sure if she has another man in her life ( i wouldn't blame her if she moved on..) .

Read. It. More. Carefully.

 

My analysis in the spoiler box.

 

 

There were some female betrayers, Kaliyo for instance. But I think with the last one in "Crisis on Umbara" was the last drop for me in this game. They took away old companions for 2 years, bring them back too slowly, and when they eventually come back, they don't really matter. You get emotionally attached to the new companions (not talking about leveling the influence with presents, lots of credits there). Betrayal together with a romance arc, repeated several times on different characters and companions, is no longer fun.