Please upgrade your browser for the best possible experience.

Chrome Firefox Internet Explorer
×

After playing Group Ranked tonight, healers need to be buffed

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > PvP
After playing Group Ranked tonight, healers need to be buffed

Jinre_the_Jedi's Avatar


Jinre_the_Jedi
11.15.2019 , 06:11 PM | #1
Did about 2-3 hours of Group Ranked tonight. The results were really jarring.

https://i.imgur.com/Uc71jXl.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/6s0D60X.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/MlRxNSp.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/2DLL0kM.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/xyi8R9M.jpg

This is just a small handful of pictures, there were many more games than this. Our comp was Lightning Sorc, Veng Jugg and Deception/Hatred DPS with a Sorc Healer. We faced comps who had 3 dps and 1 healer, as well as traditional tank/heal/dps comps. The results were as follows:
  • Tanks don't do enough DPS or protection to warrant bringing them over a 3rd DPS who can guard
  • The cumulative DPS of my team was about 35k-40k
  • The max HPS we saw came from an Operative healer, who did 18k HPS

Regarding DPS, for Assassin specifically, Deception is leagues better than Hatred. It's better to actually bring a DPS who can guard instead of a full blown tank. The strat between the teams we faced (the other team was double Vanguard DPS, Scoundrel Healer, Sentinel DPS) showed that it's better to bring multiple DPS who can cross guard when one gets low, since a DPS will do 4-5x more DPS than a full blown tank in DPS gear while doing similar protection as a fully spec'd tank. Because of this, Deception performed much better because it has much better passive DR than Hatred, while also having very strong burst.

Regarding healers, Operative healer just seemed much better than Sorc. They were able to put up incredible HPS numbers and even then, it still wasn't enough to put a dent in the 40k~ dps our team was outputting. Our lightning sorc over the course of 2-3 hours managed to output about 16k DPS on average. As Hatred, I was managing 10k DPS compared to Deception, where I was managing roughly 12-13k DPS. Our veng jug was pretty consistently hitting 13k~. Even when focused, the Operative was putting up almost 5k more HPS than Sorc, though Operative healer has always been best against cleave/pressure comps. I can't comment on Merc healer yet, haven't seen them in action.

HPS of Op:

https://i.imgur.com/iuFgLyS.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/AiuVrv3.jpg

So basically, the new Group Ranked meta looks like:
  • 2 DPS who can guard (Jugg/Sin/PT)
  • 1 DPS with either very strong burst or very strong cleave (Lightning sorc is incredible right now)
  • Operative healer

__________________________________________________ ___________________________________________

Ok so the conclusion is, with the shift of the meta moving to triple DPS (with guard) and 1 healer, it's probably best for Bioware to do one of the following:
  1. Buff the damage output of tanks
  2. Buff the healing output of healers

One of these two things needs to be done probably because currently, a healer is only barely better than bringing a 4th DPS. In fact, I almost believe that it may be better to just bring something like a Lightning Sorc in place of a healer since Lightning sorc can output almost equal damage to a healer's current maximum HPS. I'm not sure what Bioware will decide to do to balance this, but right now things are not balanced, DPS are doing WAY too much damage relative to a healer's maximum HPS and bringing a tank atm is just gimping your team when a DPS with guard just does it better. There is only 1 tank who can keep up and that's PT tank, who are capable of pulling roughly 10k+ DPS. Sin and Jugg tank are cancelled for Season 12 it seems.

JediMasterAlex's Avatar


JediMasterAlex
11.15.2019 , 06:33 PM | #2
Quote: Originally Posted by Jinre_the_Jedi View Post
One of these two things needs to be done probably because currently, a healer is only barely better than bringing a 4th DPS. In fact, I almost believe that it may be better to just bring something like a Lightning Sorc in place of a healer since Lightning sorc can output almost equal damage to a healer's current maximum HPS. I'm not sure what Bioware will decide to do to balance this, but right now things are not balanced, DPS are doing WAY too much damage relative to a healer's maximum HPS and bringing a tank atm is just gimping your team when a DPS with guard just does it better. There is only 1 tank who can keep up and that's PT tank, who are capable of pulling roughly 10k+ DPS. Sin and Jugg tank are cancelled for Season 12 it seems.
I love when people pretend that group ranked is relevant. It was completely dead throughout season 11. I predict it will get played by a few decent teams in the first few weeks of season 12. Then the decent teams will start dodging each other, and the queues will die rather quickly...again.

As far as the substance of what you're saying, it honestly sounds like a welcome change. Skanks have always done too much damage. And tank/heal games were already plagued by healers doing too much healing, leading to frequently un-fun, long rounds. Now, maybe it has swung too much in the opposite direction. If tanks and healers are actually rendered obsolete, I guess that's a problem, but I'm deeply skeptical that 2-3 hours of play is enough to definitively establish what a new meta will be.

Also, the dps sorc is freecasting in all of those screenshots. The amount of healing done (by the sorc) makes that abundantly clear.

Jinre_the_Jedi's Avatar


Jinre_the_Jedi
11.15.2019 , 06:59 PM | #3
Quote: Originally Posted by JediMasterAlex View Post
I love when people pretend that group ranked is relevant. It was completely dead throughout season 11. I predict it will get played by a few decent teams in the first few weeks of season 12. Then the decent teams will start dodging each other, and the queues will die rather quickly...again.
I respect that you have a different opinion than myself and I'll leave it at that.

Quote:
As far as the substance of what you're saying, it honestly sounds like a welcome change. Skanks have always done too much damage. And tank/heal games were already plagued by healers doing too much healing, leading to frequently un-fun, long rounds. Now, maybe it has swung too much in the opposite direction. If tanks and healers are actually rendered obsolete, I guess that's a problem, but I'm deeply skeptical that 2-3 hours of play is enough to definitively establish what a new meta will be.

Also, the dps sorc is freecasting in all of those screenshots. The amount of healing done (by the sorc) makes that abundantly clear.
Thing is, it was this way on PTS too. And people said the same thing I'm saying here, but I assumed things between PTS and live were changed. Now I can see first hand that everything is the same as PTS. Healers and Tanks are questionable choices to bring when DPS is as high as it is currently. Feel free to queue up some team ranked yourself and see it first hand as well, it will become very apparent very quickly that tank specs are strictly worse than bringing a DPS spec who can guard, and the enemy teams noticed that pretty quickly too when they tried using a tank vs our 3 dps comp. Average DPS of a tank in full DPS mods is almost 3x lower than that of a DPS with guard who could instead take their spot. Whether you felt 5.0 era of healing was too strong or not, something needs to be changed because as it is currently, bringing multiple DPS is vastly superior than bringing a tank at a competitive level.

NogueiraA's Avatar


NogueiraA
11.15.2019 , 07:07 PM | #4
Things die now, healers are fine.
If something needs nerf is Guard.
La'izen | Sentinel
Jedi Laizen | Guardian
Satele Shan
BETA tester

SlimeyDoom's Avatar


SlimeyDoom
11.15.2019 , 08:26 PM | #5
A few notes from a long time group ranked healer main:

A) Sorceror and Operative healers are both substandard this expansion. Sorcs just donít heal enough, and operatives have always struggled with being the squishiest healer. This expansion has severely aggravated this issue, and triple tunnel healer strats against an op healer will completely demolish them. Merc heals are the strongest healer right now, as theyíre not far behind operatives in hps but are much more durable.

B) Tanks are still important in group ranked. Prior to this recent nerf to the pt setbonus for explosive fuel, Pt tanks were capable of easily pulling over 10k dps while also outputting trauma. The nerfs have definitely hurt pt tank, but tanks are still very valuable. You have to know when to drop guard and kite out of aoes in this meta, and thatís why we are so many tank players contributing nothing to their team. A good tank, however, is invaluable. None of the better teams would run serious matches without a tank.

C) Certain classes are very very strong right now. Most of the better teams on SF run at least one or more of the following specs: Lightning Sorc, Concealment Operative, Pyrotech PT, or AP PT. Other dps classes can certainly work, but these are the ones that are most prevalent in the matches going on this season.

I would really like sorcs and ops to be buffed so thereís more than one viable healer pick. Also as a side note, you came up with a conclusion as to the whole group ranked meta after 2-3 hours of playing it? You realize that thatís not a very big sample size right?

septru's Avatar


septru
11.15.2019 , 08:33 PM | #6
Quote: Originally Posted by Jinre_the_Jedi View Post
fat snip
Lol Krea. Calm down. You did group ranked for the first time in 6.0. You played against 1 team. And by the looks of it you briefly changed up your comp and they didn't change up their comp.

You don't know the meta. I'm not saying this to be toxic or egotistical. It's just a fact. Most NA teams have been doing 4s for a couple nights on SF now. And while we don't know the exact hierarchy of comps and meta, we are much closer. You haven't even yet touched the classes or comps that are actually strong in 4s.

Edit:

Quote: Originally Posted by SlimeyDoom View Post
Also as a side note, you came up with a conclusion as to the whole group ranked meta after 2-3 hours of playing it? You realize that thatís not a very big sample size right?
This.

Quote: Originally Posted by JediMasterAlex View Post
I love when people pretend that group ranked is relevant.
And not this.
-Prum, Satele Shan
"The real endgame is general chat."
The only real top 3 operative btw

septru's Avatar


septru
11.15.2019 , 08:43 PM | #7
One final point. Krea, if you really want to see 4s you should come SF with your team. Most of the players in ur screenshots have NA toons. And its not like it is that taboo for EU players to come NA. NA players have been going EU for years now.
-Prum, Satele Shan
"The real endgame is general chat."
The only real top 3 operative btw

Lhancelot's Avatar


Lhancelot
11.15.2019 , 08:48 PM | #8
Quote: Originally Posted by Jinre_the_Jedi View Post
Did about 2-3 hours of Group Ranked tonight. The results were really jarring.

https://i.imgur.com/Uc71jXl.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/6s0D60X.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/MlRxNSp.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/2DLL0kM.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/xyi8R9M.jpg

This is just a small handful of pictures, there were many more games than this. Our comp was Lightning Sorc, Veng Jugg and Deception/Hatred DPS with a Sorc Healer. We faced comps who had 3 dps and 1 healer, as well as traditional tank/heal/dps comps. The results were as follows:
  • Tanks don't do enough DPS or protection to warrant bringing them over a 3rd DPS who can guard
  • The cumulative DPS of my team was about 35k-40k
  • The max HPS we saw came from an Operative healer, who did 18k HPS

Regarding DPS, for Assassin specifically, Deception is leagues better than Hatred. It's better to actually bring a DPS who can guard instead of a full blown tank. The strat between the teams we faced (the other team was double Vanguard DPS, Scoundrel Healer, Sentinel DPS) showed that it's better to bring multiple DPS who can cross guard when one gets low, since a DPS will do 4-5x more DPS than a full blown tank in DPS gear while doing similar protection as a fully spec'd tank. Because of this, Deception performed much better because it has much better passive DR than Hatred, while also having very strong burst.

Regarding healers, Operative healer just seemed much better than Sorc. They were able to put up incredible HPS numbers and even then, it still wasn't enough to put a dent in the 40k~ dps our team was outputting. Our lightning sorc over the course of 2-3 hours managed to output about 16k DPS on average. As Hatred, I was managing 10k DPS compared to Deception, where I was managing roughly 12-13k DPS. Our veng jug was pretty consistently hitting 13k~. Even when focused, the Operative was putting up almost 5k more HPS than Sorc, though Operative healer has always been best against cleave/pressure comps. I can't comment on Merc healer yet, haven't seen them in action.

HPS of Op:

https://i.imgur.com/iuFgLyS.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/AiuVrv3.jpg

So basically, the new Group Ranked meta looks like:
  • 2 DPS who can guard (Jugg/Sin/PT)
  • 1 DPS with either very strong burst or very strong cleave (Lightning sorc is incredible right now)
  • Operative healer

__________________________________________________ ___________________________________________

Ok so the conclusion is, with the shift of the meta moving to triple DPS (with guard) and 1 healer, it's probably best for Bioware to do one of the following:
  1. Buff the damage output of tanks
  2. Buff the healing output of healers

One of these two things needs to be done probably because currently, a healer is only barely better than bringing a 4th DPS. In fact, I almost believe that it may be better to just bring something like a Lightning Sorc in place of a healer since Lightning sorc can output almost equal damage to a healer's current maximum HPS. I'm not sure what Bioware will decide to do to balance this, but right now things are not balanced, DPS are doing WAY too much damage relative to a healer's maximum HPS and bringing a tank atm is just gimping your team when a DPS with guard just does it better. There is only 1 tank who can keep up and that's PT tank, who are capable of pulling roughly 10k+ DPS. Sin and Jugg tank are cancelled for Season 12 it seems.
I consider this a great representation of class balance.

I mean, when you have players like Krea and friends pushing classes to their limits it really shows when a toon is played at it's maximum performance just what they are capable of.

I can appreciate when Krea and others take the time to note the numbers of performance versus all the different other teams, even noting types of teams so that you can find the optimum classes to fight them with.

It's like testing out race cars on a track! The best way to do it is to let the best drivers have a run with each vehicle, then you can really see what each car is capable of.

Anyway, I'd be shocked if BW considers this thread or even cares one bit that heals and/or tanks are underperforming. Even if 100% true, the problem is you are not going to have the support of PVPers.

In general most PVPers seem to favor DPS classes, to a point where they resent healers. Before 6.0, many would even post "nerf heals." So, whether it's purposeful or BW meant for heals to be far less effective in PVP now, getting them to change this will take a miracle.

The only way this will get changed is if healers and tanks in PVE are gimped so badly they are broken, imo. If it's just a matter of PVP, I could see this meta staying intact for years.
TRUE
Quote: Originally Posted by DarthSpuds View Post
RNG is counterproductive because it massively increases player dissatisfaction.
FALSE
Quote: Originally Posted by olagatonjedi View Post
As I detailed in another thread, RNG give the players more control over their gearing.

Nickodemous's Avatar


Nickodemous
11.15.2019 , 09:12 PM | #9
Buff healers so u can win Ö.. Bwahahahahahahahahahahaahahahaha
Clandestu TyranticusTyranticus
Elite Warlord - Elite Warlord - Elite Warlord

The Harbinger - POT5 - Jedi Covenant

Nickodemous's Avatar


Nickodemous
11.15.2019 , 09:13 PM | #10
Wait.....Bwahahahahahaahahahahahahahahahahahahahah ahahaahahaha
Clandestu TyranticusTyranticus
Elite Warlord - Elite Warlord - Elite Warlord

The Harbinger - POT5 - Jedi Covenant