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gearing tanks?


kissingaiur's Avatar


kissingaiur
11.14.2017 , 09:20 AM | #31
Quote: Originally Posted by Severith View Post
I'll disagree with you there, 100%. About 99% of my time in swtor is pvp, and about 90% of that time has been melee characters. As a melee character, you absolutely have to put people on the defensive, or you get eaten alive. Some specs of certain classes might notice your shield, but many others straight up won't. It might of mattered in the good old days when we didn't have the stat bloating that has occurred, but right now everyone is running 40-45% crit, many with autocrit abilities, and procing crit relics on top of that. The shield isn't going to work when it needs to work the most.

It's not histrionic in the least to say that a shield will get you killed. Stacking shield/absorb is an automatic loss against a lot of different classes and specs. If you're dueling against them you're dead. If you're 4v4ing then you're dragging your team down and then your team is dead, unless they carry you. And you have to stack shield and absorb to have it actually work against the few classes and specs whose primary abilities are shieldable. And they'll be critting you and avoiding the shield half the time anyways.

I don't want new players who are trying to skank tank to spend their hard earned UC on gear and stats that are going to make themselves miserable. Gearing is still bad for post 5.0, and gearing is twice as bad for a skank tank who wants a set bonus. They don't need bad advice and lost weeks of time because certain people on the forums encouraged them to experiment with it. That's not going to go well for people gearing post 5.0.

Can you honestly imagine a new player, playing a jugg or pt dps finally figuring out that those specs are really bad for pvp, switching to skank tank and then after grinding a bunch realize that all those shield relics and implants and earpieces they've bought are basically worthless, except in specific circumstances? That's not a player that is going to stick around.

Nothing against you, or anyone else, but I'm going to come down hard on people giving irresponsible advice about skank tanking. It's the only viable spec in pvp for jugs and PT right now, and quite frankly it needs to be cultivated and protected until the dps specs are viable again.

/endrant
Good tanks majority of the time wear dps gear that's a fact, that's not up for argument. A good offense does make a good defense but that still doesn't mean mitigation gear will get you killed.

I know plenty of great tanks who have also two sets of gear depending on the situation. I known tanks through out multiple pvp seasons in solo ranked and group ranked which switched their gear around a lot depending on what they were up against or the strategies the other players were doing . There are tanaible benefits to mitigation gear. Situations like your tank is getting tanked tunneled or your in a match with no healer, sometimes the match calls for your to die as slowly as possible. This season in particular there are PT tanks in solos who are running some mit gear and having success with it. There is nothing wrong with making yourself more tanky in certain scenario.

That being said, it's good to lead new players away from mit but that doesn't mean it has zero benefits. Newbies should know the difference.

Ps - yah tank relics just like healing relics have been bad for so long lol.
Hothothothothothotho
"I need you all to know that Iíve transcended ranked pvp by reading about it on the forums"
5.6 PvP Operative Healing / twitch.tv/kissingaiur

Severith's Avatar


Severith
11.14.2017 , 01:19 PM | #32
Quote: Originally Posted by kissingaiur View Post
Good tanks majority of the time wear dps gear that's a fact, that's not up for argument. A good offense does make a good defense but that still doesn't mean mitigation gear will get you killed.

I know plenty of great tanks who have also two sets of gear depending on the situation. I known tanks through out multiple pvp seasons in solo ranked and group ranked which switched their gear around a lot depending on what they were up against or the strategies the other players were doing . There are tanaible benefits to mitigation gear. Situations like your tank is getting tanked tunneled or your in a match with no healer, sometimes the match calls for your to die as slowly as possible. This season in particular there are PT tanks in solos who are running some mit gear and having success with it. There is nothing wrong with making yourself more tanky in certain scenario.

That being said, it's good to lead new players away from mit but that doesn't mean it has zero benefits. Newbies should know the difference.

Ps - yah tank relics just like healing relics have been bad for so long lol.
The conversation was literally about adding shield to a skank tank set, and how that really, really doesn't work.

No one here said zero benefits, other than yourself. If you were in WWI, and given a pistol, and told to run across no man's land to assault the enemy trench, you wouldn't say the pistol is of no benefit. But being expected to survive that situation with the wrong tools for the job is going to get you killed. Same thing with shield values in swtor. It's the wrong tool for surviving pvp, and having it instead of something far more useful is going to make you lose.

Yeah, every good tank carries two sets. A good tank is going to put on a regular tank set when the situation calls for it, but those situations are in the vast minority of the time in pvp matches. The skank tank set is going to be useful 100% of the time. For the actual tank set however, the "defense" stat actually pulls more weight in pvp, because even though it works like shield in the types of attacks it effects, it isn't overridden by critical hits.

Please don't generalize my statements to the point where you are misquoting me. It doesn't progress the conversation, and doesn't help newer players understand the situation.

kissingaiur's Avatar


kissingaiur
11.14.2017 , 02:26 PM | #33
Quote: Originally Posted by Severith View Post
The conversation was literally about adding shield to a skank tank set, and how that really, really doesn't work.

No one here said zero benefits, other than yourself. If you were in WWI, and given a pistol, and told to run across no man's land to assault the enemy trench, you wouldn't say the pistol is of no benefit. But being expected to survive that situation with the wrong tools for the job is going to get you killed. Same thing with shield values in swtor. It's the wrong tool for surviving pvp, and having it instead of something far more useful is going to make you lose.

Yeah, every good tank carries two sets. A good tank is going to put on a regular tank set when the situation calls for it, but those situations are in the vast minority of the time in pvp matches. The skank tank set is going to be useful 100% of the time. For the actual tank set however, the "defense" stat actually pulls more weight in pvp, because even though it works like shield in the types of attacks it effects, it isn't overridden by critical hits.

Please don't generalize my statements to the point where you are misquoting me. It doesn't progress the conversation, and doesn't help newer players understand the situation.
I really don't think I was generalizing when you literally posted a statement saying that going shield/absorb "gets you killed" and is the factor that causes your team to lose. Come on that just isn't true, lol. I could be slightly nit-picky but I stand by what I said. If this thread is about educating new players, statements like that should be clarified. Players should be able to weigh each set and decide for themselves, don't you think?
Hothothothothothotho
"I need you all to know that Iíve transcended ranked pvp by reading about it on the forums"
5.6 PvP Operative Healing / twitch.tv/kissingaiur

KendraP's Avatar


KendraP
11.14.2017 , 02:39 PM | #34
I suppose, in all honesty, the best thing to do is test a few different setups for yourself and see. But I just don't feel the survivability benefit from tank gear. And I'm nearly always rinniing around with my healer buddy with like 4-6 players wailing on us.

Asaxor's Avatar


Asaxor
11.15.2017 , 03:27 AM | #35
Quote: Originally Posted by Severith View Post
Force and tech attacks? Guess what. Not shieldable.
Force and tech attacks are shieldable.
The only non-shieldable attacks are those of internal and/or elemental damage type ( dots like Affliction or the burning dot from PTs or abilities like Force Breach) and of course all crits.

For those who want to read up the basics:
https://taugrim.com/2012/01/19/under...-tanks-in-pvp/
This is somewhat outdated though, it still mentions Force/Tech as not shieldable, something that was changed in 2.0
http://www.swtor.com/info/news/blog/20130419-0
Quote:
Shield Improvements: Weíve changed the way shields work to allow them to absorb any incoming kinetic or energy damage regardless of the source (melee, ranged, Force, tech Ė doesnít matter). This has significantly increased the importance of shields, and the game has been rebalanced to account for such a major adjustment.

Severith's Avatar


Severith
11.15.2017 , 01:11 PM | #36
Quote: Originally Posted by kissingaiur View Post
I really don't think I was generalizing when you literally posted a statement saying that going shield/absorb "gets you killed" and is the factor that causes your team to lose. Come on that just isn't true, lol. I could be slightly nit-picky but I stand by what I said. If this thread is about educating new players, statements like that should be clarified. Players should be able to weigh each set and decide for themselves, don't you think?
New players can't weigh each set in pvp unless they buy those sets, and get them to at least 242 item rating on each piece. (To avoid bolster.) If this thread is indeed about educating new players, then telling them to spend thousands and thousands of UC (for gold tier 3) or tens of millions of credits to get 246, (probably closer to 100 million) neither of which they will have, to simply test something which is already known, is really dismissive and irresponsible. It's not really ethical to encourage experimentation like that for new players, because in the context of gearing in 5.0, it is simply too expensive and time consuming to do so.

Any tank who relies on their shield to save them is going to get killed in pvp. That's just a fact. It simply doesn't work, unless you have some very specific circumstances.

To equate the conception of using something incorrectly and being killed in the process, to the conception of something being of "no benefit" is incorrect. But those are the words you put in my mouth via implication. It's great that you stand by what you said, but it was your generalization of my statement "Shield will get you killed" to your interpretation of "No benefit" that creates falsehood. You're standing next to your lie. I never said that there was "no benefit", that was you, so to imply that I did say that and then build arguments upon that lie is your own issue you need to work out.

If you still have questions about the 242 items required to test for pvp, feel free to ask. Simply put, bolster ruins skank tanking even more than it impeeds other classes and specs.

Severith's Avatar


Severith
11.15.2017 , 01:17 PM | #37
Quote: Originally Posted by Asaxor View Post
Force and tech attacks are shieldable.
The only non-shieldable attacks are those of internal and/or elemental damage type ( dots like Affliction or the burning dot from PTs or abilities like Force Breach) and of course all crits.

For those who want to read up the basics:
https://taugrim.com/2012/01/19/under...-tanks-in-pvp/
This is somewhat outdated though, it still mentions Force/Tech as not shieldable, something that was changed in 2.0
http://www.swtor.com/info/news/blog/20130419-0:
Thank you so much for mentioning this. I forgot they streamlined it way back in the day. It's good to have a slice of humble pie every once in awhile too, lol. Your second link didn't work for me, but I do remember that now.

So yeah, it's damage types now, not attack types. So kinetic/energy is shieldable, elemental/internal not shieldable, and any crit of any kind not shieldable. It also used to be that when you used guard it didn't shield the incoming damage, but thankfully that got changed too. I still think (and pretty much everyone else) it's a liabilty for pvp though.