People who think pure DPS classes have no utility don't know anything about the pure DPS classes. The utility Snipers and Marauders bring to a group with Ballistic Shield and Bloodthirst and such is so much better than the weak heals a DPS spec merc/sage/op could possibly provide.

A Mercenary can toss out a 3-5k heal here and there without having much heat issues from it. Ballistic Shield can easily prevent 10-20k damage. Bloodthirst can easily boost your healers' total output by more than 10k while also boosting group DPS.

The question isn't "why bring a sniper who just does dps when we can bring merc who dps and some heals?"

it's more like "why bring a merc who just has some weak heals when we can bring sniper who has so much utility?"

 

This goes double for PVP where Trauma makes a DPS spec's heals almost totally worthless.

Exactly. All things being equal a healer should be stronger than a hybrid healer and a dps should do more dps than a hybrid dps. The ability to fill two rolls at a whim should come at a price. Bioware obviously agrees look at mercs. We can dps and throw out paultry heals or heal and throw out paultry dps but never do both strongly.

 

And thats how it is right now in the game. Someone in a full dps spec doesnt have healing power worth mentioning, just like a full healer spec is doing tickle dps, someone using a hybrid spec is gimped in both aspects.

When a dps commando trows a heal they lose the cast time +gcd, + the ammo used, which severely impacts their dps.

From a dps perspective their dps is still very compedative, if its not onpar with the rest of the dps, it will be buffed in the future OR the other specs end up being nerved. BW never intended us to be weak at both, though I do agree the last patch did overnerf a bit. But ast long a "good"commando still can push 2k dps (dmg per second) , we are no where near as gimped as people trying to suggest.

And thats how it is right now in the game. Someone in a full dps spec doesnt have healing power worth mentioning, just like a full healer spec is doing tickle dps, someone using a hybrid spec is gimped in both aspects.

When a dps commando trows a heal they lose the cast time +gcd, + the ammo used, which severely impacts their dps.

From a dps perspective their dps is still very compedative, if its not onpar with the rest of the dps, it will be buffed in the future OR the other specs end up being nerved. BW never intended us to be weak at both, though I do agree the last patch did overnerf a bit. But ast long a "good"commando still can push 2k dps (dmg per second) , we are no where near as gimped as people trying to suggest.

 

I believe your points were identical. It was written in a confusing way though I agree. As an aside, you're not seeing commando's doing 2k dps on anything. full marauder groups chaining bloodthirst aren't breaking 2k just yet, and they deal a good 30-50% more damage than mercenaries without stacking bloodthirsts (presuming commandos are are pub side variants, too lazy to look it up).

The "Hybrid" classes have to be balanced less than pure DPS ACs as their utility has to be taken into consideration.

 

Otherwise there will be NO reason to have pure DPS classes in the game.

 

I asked this question in another post, surprisingly no-one answered.

 

If all ACs when specced into DPS can do the same level of damage, Why take pure DPS classes to an Ops/HM if a hybrid healer can do as much damage and still have the utility of heals. cures and shields when needed?

 

Thats why the utility of hybrids has to be factored into the equation when balancing.

 

My sage is balance specced and can still throw out 5k+ heals.

 

Otherwise to balance hybrid classes to do the same damage as pure DPS classes, then the pure DPS classes need a viable utility outside of pure damage to compare.

 

The "hybrid healer" know as a dps that has heals can only add those heals/shield etc and the cost of their dps. So having lower dps and taking the time out of dpsing to do other things means they would have even lower dps than what you apparently intend. Also, if you are in a raid as a balance sage and having to throw out so heals to help out your healers then perhaps your raid should be worried about taking competent healers and not worry about pure dps over "hybrid". Right?

 

After all, just because my shadow has a tank spec does not mean he can tank any better in dps gear and his dps spec then say a sentinel could. However, you could also argue that a sent in dps gear would actually prove better to tank for a short amount of time due to the cds that they have as opposed to the shadows. Not to say the shadow defensive cds are bad, because the cds are actually amazing. I'm just saying that a pure dps class has comparable survivability to a "hybrid" dps.

 

Just because a class is hybrid in the fact that it can dps or tank, or dps or heal. Does not mean that it can do both while being effective. A dps specced sage should do as much as a dps specced gunslinger, etc. Now if there comes a point that a hybrid can do both effective at the same time, then either the ones that cannot should excel higher, or the hybrids need to be examined so they can only do one role at a time.

The biggest thing a hybrid DPS brings to a raid at this point are taunts and cleanses. Both are major tools that can make or break some encounters. On T&Z for example the healers will rarely be able to fully keep up with the stacking DoT cleanses and a hybrid DPS can provide a lot of raid utility though the occasional cleanse with an insignificant hit to DPS. On Firebrand & Stormcaller a hybrid can either taunt Firebrand to avoid having the tank get the debuff and avoid having your tanks do a somewhat risky tank-swap. On FB&SC a hybrid can cleanse the yellow targeting circles. On Kephess a hybrid can taunt Kephess during Breath of the Masters in a pinch to avoid having the tank get 1-shot.

 

With this hybrid utility in existence the question then becomes this: What utility can pures be given to balance this out?

 

The answer from Bioware seems to have been Bloodthirst and Ballistic Shield. They also seem to be balancing Marauders/Snipers to be on the higher end of the DPS spectrum. This seems pretty fair. A quick peek at top Sorc/Merc/Hybrid parses show that the gap isn't very large and in actual encounters with movement and up-time taken into consideration all classes can be very competitive. There doesn't need to be a "hybrid tax" that means pures will ALWAYS be higher DPS but there does need to be special care taken to ensure that pure DPS classes are never on the LOWER end of the DPS spectrum because DPS is the only role they can perform and having them be one of the worst classes at their only role would make the completely useless in every way. A certain other MMO that dropped their 5% hybrid tax policy still follows this general trend of not letting pure DPS classes fall below the middle of the pack. Even when I played this other MMO as a certain hybrid plate tank/dps/heal class I felt that a system that kept pure DPS classes from being one of the worst at their only role was fair.

Edited May 8, 2012 by Tumri

Moot discussion tbh.

The pures are already in the top spectrum of the damage field while, on average, having better (i.e. less situational) utility.

 

Given equal skill levels, only a fool would bench a sentinel to take a dps shadow/vanguard. It's also pretty obvious that gunslingers are better then dps commandos/sages nowadays...

 

Tank hybrids in dps spec/gear/stance can not tank. A balance shadow with enough nerve to taunt a boss is VERY unlikely to survive the duration of the taunt. Even with def CD's up it's a cointoss at best.

If healer hybrids in dps gear/spec start healing the dps loss far outweighs the healing gain and you're probably in a very bad spot anyway.

 

As far as the noted situations go, it's just that. Situational. Yes on some encounters cleanse and taunts might be useful, but these are circumstantial, while the utility provided by the pures is useful around the clock.

 

If anything, hybrid tax is in the game, and it's showing. As I said, only a fool would bench his pure for a hybrid in the current state of the game.

 

note: Yes I do exaggerate. The diffirence is smaller then I make it seem, but it's still there, and renders the discussion moot, which is my point...

People who think pure DPS classes have no utility don't know anything about the pure DPS classes. The utility Snipers and Marauders bring to a group with Ballistic Shield and Bloodthirst and such is so much better than the weak heals a DPS spec merc/sage/op could possibly provide.

A Mercenary can toss out a 3-5k heal here and there without having much heat issues from it. Ballistic Shield can easily prevent 10-20k damage. Bloodthirst can easily boost your healers' total output by more than 10k while also boosting group DPS.

The question isn't "why bring a sniper who just does dps when we can bring merc who dps and some heals?"

it's more like "why bring a merc who just has some weak heals when we can bring sniper who has so much utility?"

 

This goes double for PVP where Trauma makes a DPS spec's heals almost totally worthless.

 

DPS specced Sages aren't weak healers.

 

The primary stat for healing is the same for DPS. On my Sage, I can through out an "oh sh*t* heal on a DPSer, help top up HP dropping down the platforms on Soa. throw out an extra shield on lightning ball targets on NMM, CC any trash, not just robots, with force lift.

 

On bonthrasher, Gunslingers shield is pretty much useless. Sage shield is much more useful. On fabricator, i can use force speed on sage to go faster between terminals and range nuke.Self shield for popping the droids in front of the terms.

 

Gunslingers shield is on a 3 minute cooldown. Usable twice at most in a boss fight, and if you have to move anytime during the duration, the shield collapses.

DPS specced Sages aren't weak healers.

 

When you start your post like this, most people will just skip the rest of the garbage you spewed out.

 

Edit: Protip, casting sorc shield on someone puts a debuff on them making your untalented dps shields interfere with your sorc healer doing his job.

Edited May 8, 2012 by Remulan

There is no reason to take an arsenal merc into a raid when there is another available sniper or marader. The situation with the class is even more useless in pvp. The only role a merc would have in todays game is a healer, which is viable in pvp and pve. Whats the point in having the other 2 trees may I ask? Any dps mercenary spec has no role to fulfill.

I don't want marauders to be nerfed into the dirt and I don't want to see mercs doing 20-40% more damage than other classes.

 

Same. I can tell that my sentinel is overpowered PVP wise, but I don't think he should be nerfed, simply because there could be some serious PVE problems. I'm not a

 

"Nerf Rock.

Paper is fine.

Love, Scissors"

 

person. I prefer to think of myself as

 

"Buff paper.

Rock is fine.

Love, Scissors."

 

I can't say I'm a good PVP'r. Maybe it's because I have no interest in the best skill tree for maximum ownage. Maybe I just lack good judgement, or good reflexes, or am just a bad loser. But I can see the maths, and I can see that the devs need to give other classes tools to BEAT Sentinels, not remove the Sentinel's viabilitiy.

 

Assasins and Operatives frequently give me trouble, but that's because their playstyle involves a lot of "get behind and attack", something I really aren't that good at handling. I also remember a certain sorceror I couldn't kill, but that was because instead of fighting me, she'd do everything she could to keep me off her until she found backup.

 

So yeah, maybe I'm a bad player. But note that I haven't been begging "Nerf Sorcs, I can't kill them" or "Nerf agent stuns, they OP'd!". I just don't want to see things getting thrown even further out of whack than they are now.

When you start your post like this, most people will just skip the rest of the garbage you spewed out.

 

Edit: Protip, casting sorc shield on someone puts a debuff on them making your untalented dps shields interfere with your sorc healer doing his job.

 

Protip, a TK specced sage has a stronger shield than a heal specced sage. Due to Telekenetic Defence. Lightning Barrier for sorcs. Increase absorption by 20% 2/2, So thats debunked your "protip".

 

And no, it isn't garbage.

 

BTW we are clearing NMM Ops. Done with my main Gunslinger, and DPS specced sage. So I know EXACTLY what im capable of with both and how they both aid the raid.

 

The main differences between heals on a heal specced sage and a DPS sage is the 31 point AE heal. And a bit more utility for healing, AKA the Hot and the armor increase from the HoT. The actual increase in healing is minimal. 2% increase from the tier 1 talent. and 6% increase to bonus healing, which at 700 bonus (for example) will give an additional 42 to heals.

 

Shield wise, what heal specced sages gain is the reduced cooldown and reduced force cost only. compared to a 20% increase in absorption value from the TK tree.

 

Thats why I state DPS specced Sages arent weak (let me add) single target healers. Because the increase in heals from talents is very small.

 

Problem is a lot of DPS specced Sages/Sorcs forget they have heal abilities also.

Edited May 10, 2012 by kiwoo

Protip, a TK specced sage has a stronger shield than a heal specced sage. Due to Telekenetic Defence. Lightning Barrier for sorcs. Increase absorption by 20% 2/2, So thats debunked your "protip".

 

And no, it isn't garbage.

 

BTW we are clearing NMM Ops. Done with my main Gunslinger, and DPS specced sage. So I know EXACTLY what im capable of with both and how they both aid the raid.

 

The main differences between heals on a heal specced sage and a DPS sage is the 31 point AE heal. And a bit more utility for healing, AKA the Hot and the armor increase from the HoT. The actual increase in healing is minimal. 2% increase from the tier 1 talent. and 6% increase to bonus healing, which at 700 bonus (for example) will give an additional 42 to heals.

 

Shield wise, what heal specced sages gain is the reduced cooldown and reduced force cost only. compared to a 20% increase in absorption value from the TK tree.

 

Thats why I state DPS specced Sages arent weak (let me add) single target healers. Because the increase in heals from talents is very small.

 

Problem is a lot of DPS specced Sages/Sorcs forget they have heal abilities also.

 

If I was your raid leader, I'd be telling you to take those heals off your bar and concentrate on DPS because that's why I brought you and your DPS numbers are severely lacking because you're wasting time and resources doing something I brought another player to do. Actually, I'd probably just get rid of you and find a DPS who does better DPS and doesn't want to heal.

 

Triage is the job / fun of a healer and a DPS who thinks it's a good idea to throw some heals around ruins that completely. Especially if you're putting debuffs on people who they were planning to shield.

my sentinel better not get nerfed. They finally dont suck I like it that way. Just buff underperforming classes, no need to nerf something unless its like paladin was as soon as lich king came out.

If I was your raid leader, I'd be telling you to take those heals off your bar and concentrate on DPS because that's why I brought you and your DPS numbers are severely lacking because you're wasting time and resources doing something I brought another player to do. Actually, I'd probably just get rid of you and find a DPS who does better DPS and doesn't want to heal.

 

Triage is the job / fun of a healer and a DPS who thinks it's a good idea to throw some heals around ruins that completely. Especially if you're putting debuffs on people who they were planning to shield.

 

My main argument was DPS sages arent weak healers, You can, and we have run ops using a DPS specced Sage as support healer when the usual one couldnt make it.

 

Also, communication, when I'm running TK specced the main healer doesn't shield the MT as my shield is stronger, the force he saves, he uses for heals...

 

What would you prefer? A normal strength shield on the MT or a 20% stronger shield on the MT?

 

Also, there isn't just bosses in Ops. We clear content without checking numbers, and no, I'm not being carried before that pops up. Which knowing these forums, it will. We do it, succesfully, our way. Dictating otherwise is pure BS.

 

At the end we have fun, we clear, we have fun. We don't need to know who does how many DPS or whatever. As we are not playing a spreadsheet. I've raided from EQ1 onwards, as all roles, Tank, Healer, DPS, Mezzer, and debuffer.

Protip, a TK specced sage has a stronger shield than a heal specced sage. Due to Telekenetic Defence. Lightning Barrier for sorcs. Increase absorption by 20% 2/2, So thats debunked your "protip".

[...]

Shield wise, what heal specced sages gain is the reduced cooldown and reduced force cost only. compared to a 20% increase in absorption value from the TK tree.

Shield strength is just a second line feat. I have it on my pure healer consular. You just have to spend 7points to unlock it. A 31/7 build can reach it and still be fully specialized.

Also, healer have access to a small speed boost on the shield. I don't think the feat is interesting, but it may have it's use. And it's still something you forget to mention.

So, what do we have ? Healers have the same shield strength, with a bonus speed boost and less force cost. But yeah, overall it's the same... animation at least.

 

The main differences between heals on a heal specced sage and a DPS sage is the 31 point AE heal. And a bit more utility for healing, AKA the Hot and the armor increase from the HoT. The actual increase in healing is minimal. 2% increase from the tier 1 talent. and 6% increase to bonus healing, which at 700 bonus (for example) will give an additional 42 to heals.

I may teach you something, but the channeled heal AND the HoT you unlock are probably the best single target heal you can have as a sage/sorcerer. The small heal is garbage, and the 2.5s cast heal is just a filler when you have nothing else, because 2.5s is a very long time to wait to save someone.

Don't think you are almost as good as a healer because you have 2heals in your bar.

My main argument was DPS sages arent weak healers, You can, and we have run ops using a DPS specced Sage as support healer when the usual one couldnt make it.

 

Also, communication, when I'm running TK specced the main healer doesn't shield the MT as my shield is stronger, the force he saves, he uses for heals...

 

What would you prefer? A normal strength shield on the MT or a 20% stronger shield on the MT?

 

Also, there isn't just bosses in Ops. We clear content without checking numbers, and no, I'm not being carried before that pops up. Which knowing these forums, it will. We do it, succesfully, our way. Dictating otherwise is pure BS.

 

At the end we have fun, we clear, we have fun. We don't need to know who does how many DPS or whatever. As we are not playing a spreadsheet. I've raided from EQ1 onwards, as all roles, Tank, Healer, DPS, Mezzer, and debuffer.

 

You appear to be missing the point entirely.

 

This thread is about whether a class with a support tree should be punished when they spec one of their two DPS trees. If you don't care about numbers at all, then why are you even in here?

 

My argument here is that the most efficient way to tackle an encounter is to bring each player with a clear defined role, some healers, some dps and some tanks and it is ridiculous to me that, as a raid leader, some of my DPS will put out lower damage by design of the game just because one of their three speciality options happens to be another role.

 

Let me put it this way, when a class has three DPS trees, usually they each have a niche... for instance, one of them is more suited for PvP, one of them is more suited for burst damage and one is more suited for sustained damage. So, using the logic of the people who are arguing against me, is that unfair? Shouldn't they all do exactly the same thing? Will you argue that if you're "pure DPS" class doesn't have an AoE speciality but another class does; then they should not be able to single target DPS because they have an AoE spec.

 

If you are speced DPS, you are a DPS and should have a design philosophy to be within a small percentage of all other DPS specs. If you are unhappy that your class doesn't have a support spec option, then perhaps you made the wrong choice when creating your character?

My main argument was DPS sages arent weak healers, You can, and we have run ops using a DPS specced Sage as support healer when the usual one couldnt make it.

 

Also, communication, when I'm running TK specced the main healer doesn't shield the MT as my shield is stronger, the force he saves, he uses for heals...

 

What would you prefer? A normal strength shield on the MT or a 20% stronger shield on the MT?

 

Also, there isn't just bosses in Ops. We clear content without checking numbers, and no, I'm not being carried before that pops up. Which knowing these forums, it will. We do it, succesfully, our way. Dictating otherwise is pure BS.

 

At the end we have fun, we clear, we have fun. We don't need to know who does how many DPS or whatever. As we are not playing a spreadsheet. I've raided from EQ1 onwards, as all roles, Tank, Healer, DPS, Mezzer, and debuffer.

 

If you spec for shield talents as a dps you are missing actual dps talents making your spec subpar. Not to mention any sage/sorc healer will have the 20% shield talent anyway making your point completely moot. DPS are brought to a raid to do damage to the boss, that is all, they are not brought because they can off heal really poorly.