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Expertise system


JackNader

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just a thought.

 

All your gear currently has a certain "rating." I believe the best gear is currently rated 63 for both PvE and PvP. The PvE versions have increased stats because the PvP ones have an expertise rating. Expertise is designed to prevent PvE players from acquiring the best gear without ever having played a single PvP match. Fair enough IMO.

 

However what tends to happen is that PvE players will still join warzones in full PvE gear thinking its better than recruit or, because of diminishing returns on expertise, PvP players tend to wear PvE items as a way of boosting their damage output.

 

What if expertise didn't exist but instead all PvP gear has a +2 rating. For instance. PvE 63 would be equal to PvP 61 + 2. PvP 63 would be equivalent to PvE 65. A similar system could also be introduced for PvE so that all PvE gear is considered +2 when PvEing. All you would need to do is set a base 63 and apply a bolster for PvE and PvP environments.

Edited by JackNader
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Thanks for the ideas! We are actually making some changes to the expertise system and how bolster interacts with the players in an upcoming Game Update (more info on this Update coming VERY soon), and this seems like a reasonable place to reveal some details about it, so buckle up and hold on!

 

To give everyone a common base of knowledge, let me briefly discuss how bolster and expertise work on the live servers as of right now (Game Update 1.7). Expertise is pretty easy, it is a diminishing returns rating that increases the damage output against other players, gives damage reduction against other players, and increases healing on targets who are in PvP. As you get higher in value of expertise, you need more and more rating to achieve the same increase (hence, the diminishing returns). Expertise only comes on PvP items, but inside PvP expertise is designed to be better bang for your buck than normal "PvE" stats.

 

The bolster system looks at a player's level and makes an assumption of the stats a player at that level would have and increases them to a target level defined by the designers. Bolster totally ignores what the player ACTUALLY has for stats, it doesn't matter if you are naked or fully geared out, it will give you the same bonuses either way. Notably, bolster will *not* give any expertise stat in Game Update 1.7.

 

In a major upcoming Game Update, everything changes, woo! Expertise still touches the same 3 functions (damage out, damage in, and healing out), but is no longer is a diminished return value, you get the same increase in power for the same increase in expertise, regardless of going from 0 to 20 or 2000 to 2020. We've also cranked up just how much expertise enhances each of these functions, so having good expertise is more important than ever. Additionally, expertise is no longer a stat that will grow throughout a tier of items, all PvP gear will generate the same total of expertise (caveat: This statement only applies starting with the new gear in the new update. Previous PvP gear will not quite have the fully intended expertise totals).

 

The bigger change is in how we bolster and add stats to players to even out the playing field. Instead of focusing on player level, now the bolster system will take a look at each individual item on your character and use that as the baseline assumption of power for that item slot. We then bolster each slot up to what we feel is the "entry level" of PvP power, at which we think everyone can be happy playing without getting simply out geared to death. Effectively, we bolster players to something like what our recruit gear set tries to do now in 1.7, but with much better accuracy and effect. Additionally, the bolster system will now grant players expertise when it feels it is necessary, bringing our entry-level power gap even closer to the end-game PvP power.

 

 

All of this put together should make our Warzone matches much more about skill in this future game update, and less about people who simply aren't in the correct gear, while still giving our PvPers some better gear out there to strive for.

 

Thanks for listening!

Edited by JovethGonzalez
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Thanks for the ideas! We are actually making some changes to the expertise system and how bolster interacts with the players in an upcoming Game Update (more info on this Update coming VERY soon), and this seems like a reasonable place to reveal some details about it, so buckle up and hold on!

 

To give everyone a common base of knowledge, let me briefly discuss how bolster and expertise work on the live servers as of right now (Game Update 1.7). Expertise is pretty easy, it is a diminishing returns rating that increases the damage output against other players, gives damage reduction against other players, and increases healing on targets who are in PvP. As you get higher in value of expertise, you need more and more rating to achieve the same increase (hence, the diminishing returns). Expertise only comes on PvP items, but inside PvP expertise is designed to be better bang for your buck than normal "PvE" stats.

 

The bolster system looks at a player's level and makes an assumption of the stats a player at that level would have and increases them to a target level defined by the designers. Bolster totally ignores what the player ACTUALLY has for stats, it doesn't matter if you are naked or fully geared out, it will give you the same bonuses either way. Notably, bolster will *not* give any expertise stat in Game Update 1.7.

 

In a major upcoming Game Update, everything changes, woo! Expertise still touches the same 3 functions (damage out, damage in, and healing out), but is no longer is a diminished return value, you get the same increase in power for the same increase in expertise, regardless of going from 0 to 20 or 2000 to 2020. We've also cranked up just how much expertise enhances each of these functions, so having good expertise is more important than ever. Additionally, expertise is no longer a stat that will grow throughout a tier of items, all PvP gear will generate the same total of expertise (caveat: This statement only applies starting with the new gear in the new update. Previous PvP gear will not quite have the fully intended expertise totals).

 

The bigger change is in how we bolster and add stats to players to even out the playing field. Instead of focusing on player level, now the bolster system will take a look at each individual item on your character and use that as the baseline assumption of power for that item slot. We then bolster each slot up to what we feel is the "entry level" of PvP power, at which we think everyone can be happy playing without getting simply out geared to death. Effectively, we bolster players to something like what our recruit gear set tries to do now in 1.7, but with much better accuracy and effect. Additionally, the bolster system will now grant players expertise when it feels it is necessary, bringing our entry-level power gap even closer to the end-game PvP power.

 

 

All of this put together should make our Warzone matches much more about skill in this future game update, and less about people who simply aren't in the correct gear, while still giving our PvPers some better gear out there to strive for.

 

Thanks for listening!

 

Thank you for the response.

Edited by JovethGonzalez
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That sounds very interesting. I wonder how that will work with high end PVE gear. Does it mean that the better the item is, the less expertise it will receive from bolster? Maybe a better approach would be bolstering everyone to equal expertise level, but reducing their PVE stats based on the amount of bolster received?
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That sounds very interesting. I wonder how that will work with high end PVE gear. Does it mean that the better the item is, the less expertise it will receive from bolster? Maybe a better approach would be bolstering everyone to equal expertise level, but reducing their PVE stats based on the amount of bolster received?

 

That's basically correct. There is a certain item rating level that once an individual item slot goes over that rating, it starts only getting expertise for its bolster (no more "PvE" stats). As the item rating continues to rise, you get less and less expertise until eventually bolster doesn't get anything from that item. The result should be that in the best PvE gear, you are somewhere between the "introduction bolster" level and the top end PvP gear in power. You would still be better off swapping to PvP gear if you have it, but you aren't terrible.

 

Also worth pointing out that this system works on an individual item basis, so each slot itself is bolstered up independently of all of the other slots on a character, so slots can give more of a bolster bonus than others if you have a really powerful item in your chest slot, as an example, but a really behind the curve implant.

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This is a pretty significant change. My only question is will Damage output, DR, and Healing output become a 1:1:1 ratio essentially negating expertise for those in PVP gear boiling it down to personal customization and skill (while maintaining a slight advantage over PVE geared players) or will the ratios be different.
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Thank you Rob!!!

 

Is Bolster an ongoing calculation, or is it determined upon entry into a warzone? I ask because I worry that a player could abuse the new system by equipping lvl 10 green gear, then once the fight begins, switch to his EWH set.

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This is a pretty significant change. My only question is will Damage output, DR, and Healing output become a 1:1:1 ratio essentially negating expertise for those in PVP gear boiling it down to personal customization and skill (while maintaining a slight advantage over PVE geared players) or will the ratios be different.

 

We've increased the effectiveness of Expertise over having no expertise at all, but if an attacker with full expertise is shooting at a defender will full expertise, their expertise effectively cancels each other out.

Edited by JovethGonzalez
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Thank you Rob!!!

 

Is Bolster an ongoing calculation, or is it determined upon entry into a warzone? I ask because I worry that a player could abuse the new system by equipping lvl 10 green gear, then once the fight begins, switch to his EWH set.

 

Bolster had better not be in end-game PvP. so that situation would be irrelevant.

 

and why are expertise formulas being redone *again*? just seems like an unnecessary step. you could have just given WH, EWH and Recruit Mk2 the same amount of expertise; your desired result would have been the same.

 

unless the point is to stop the use of PvE armorings in PvP for min/max purposes. in which case, that may or may not work depending on how much expertise you get per point

Edited by cashogy_reborn
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Thank you Rob!!!

 

Is Bolster an ongoing calculation, or is it determined upon entry into a warzone? I ask because I worry that a player could abuse the new system by equipping lvl 10 green gear, then once the fight begins, switch to his EWH set.

 

It is ongoing, to prevent exactly the abuse you are worried about.

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That's basically correct. There is a certain item rating level that once an individual item slot goes over that rating, it starts only getting expertise for its bolster (no more "PvE" stats). As the item rating continues to rise, you get less and less expertise until eventually bolster doesn't get anything from that item. The result should be that in the best PvE gear, you are somewhere between the "introduction bolster" level and the top end PvP gear in power. You would still be better off swapping to PvP gear if you have it, but you aren't terrible.

 

Also worth pointing out that this system works on an individual item basis, so each slot itself is bolstered up independently of all of the other slots on a character, so slots can give more of a bolster bonus than others if you have a really powerful item in your chest slot, as an example, but a really behind the curve implant.

 

Thanks for responding. However, if I'm interpreting your response correctly, that means that top end PVE gear would receive none or next to none expertise. This, as you put it, would put us somewhere between "introduction bolster" level and top end PVP gear in power, but only on damage output. The damage reduction provided by expertise cannot be replicated by any PVE stats, and thus PVE gear would still be far inferior to PVP gear. Now, I don't think any PVE'er would try to argue that their gear should be equally viable in PVP as PVP gear. However, I don't think it's unreasonable to expect it to be at least competitive by performing as good as PVP gear a tier below it (i.e. DG, which is equivalent of EWH, performing at WH level in PVP). Thanks

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Probably into the 50-55 bracket, since there's not enough people for a 50-54 bracket and then a 55 only tier. Which sucks either way you slice it.

 

that is a terrible way to do that.

 

you cannot group players that a) dont have all their abilities and b) all their talent points spent. that is innately unbalanced and will destroy any semblance of competitive PvP in this game.

 

however, the new bolster as RobHinkle outlined would allow a 10-34 and 35-54 bracket as was speculated based on datamined info. which leaves level 55 players in the same spot that 50s are at now

Edited by cashogy_reborn
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What's being sad here is the following, as I see it personally:

a) There will be no point not to have maximum expertise anymore, as by eliminating DR they effectively eliminate that slight possible advantage you could get by stacking up power/endurance with crystals and/or 63 mainhand barrels/hilts. Unless the gains will be reworked from scratch to the point of being considerably lower than they are right now or there is a hard cap introduced.

The problem I'm seeing here is that while grinding up to that maximum expertise, you will (probably) be severely gapped against someone who is already at max, and that would throw us back to the past where we had up and coming players being unhappy about being dominated by those who have already reached their maximum. Again, it is hard to be certain without operating any live numbers, but if we consider what's already been introduced to the game and the current feature implementation we can talk about possibility of such a gap.

Another interesting thing to note is that by making everyone max out on their expertise, all the players will be pretty much "equal" statwise, whereas right now some variety exists. If the plan is exactly how it seems right now, going for any pve mods would be counter-productive, just as well as being lower-than-maximum expertise.

Personally I see this as a good thing, because for PVP to become entirely skill based, there shouldn't be a random factor of one playing being superior to the other solely due to having a better equipped character. Equalization would make people think more of how they use their skills rather than what number pops up when they go all out with their most powerful attacks. In this case though I'm not entirely certain what would the point of expertise still be. If it's the equalization that is the goal, then simply discarding expertise and going with pve gear would produce the same effect as if everyone maxes out on it.

b) Bolster is another interesting change, and what immediately caught my attention was "what we think is the entry level to pvp". One thing that's been proven other the last months is that Bioware's understanding of pvp differs from players in a variety of ways, so I'd recommend to be careful with something like your feelings.

Another interesting sentense is "Additionally, the bolster system will now grant players expertise when it feels it is necessary, bringing our entry-level power gap even closer to the end-game PvP power." Which seems to be Bioware's answer (again, I might be thinking too deep into things) to the current layer of "problematic" players who completely neglect the need of expertise, use pve gear and things like that. Obviously, I don't think this is intended for pre-endgame, thus Bolster would apply to endgame pvp from now on (perhaps only in the expertise field, but who knows).

 

All in all I can't say I'm not excited about the changes, I just hope that it doesn't put us back months in the past with the huge gaps between the players. Latest gear changes brought some stability to pvp, and I wouldn't like it to change for the worse. PVP in this game is fragile, and any change should be approached with care.

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Thanks for responding. However, if I'm interpreting your response correctly, that means that top end PVE gear would receive none or next to none expertise. This, as you put it, would put us somewhere between "introduction bolster" level and top end PVP gear in power, but only on damage output. The damage reduction provided by expertise cannot be replicated by any PVE stats, and thus PVE gear would still be far inferior to PVP gear. Now, I don't think any PVE'er would try to argue that their gear should be equally viable in PVP as PVP gear. However, I don't think it's unreasonable to expect it to be at least competitive by performing as good as PVP gear a tier below it (i.e. DG, which is equivalent of EWH, performing at WH level in PVP). Thanks

 

You've got the crux of the idea, but I think when you are able to see all the items it will be more clear. Fundamentally, PvP gear will have lower stats then PvE gear (expertise excluded), including endurance. So high end PvE gear characters will have bigger health pools, but take more damage. The result of this interaction should get us to point of balance between the gear sets we are shooting for.

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Thanks for responding. However, if I'm interpreting your response correctly, that means that top end PVE gear would receive none or next to none expertise. This, as you put it, would put us somewhere between "introduction bolster" level and top end PVP gear in power, but only on damage output. The damage reduction provided by expertise cannot be replicated by any PVE stats, and thus PVE gear would still be far inferior to PVP gear. Now, I don't think any PVE'er would try to argue that their gear should be equally viable in PVP as PVP gear. However, I don't think it's unreasonable to expect it to be at least competitive by performing as good as PVP gear a tier below it (i.e. DG, which is equivalent of EWH, performing at WH level in PVP). Thanks

 

If pveers wasn't too PvP competitively, I think they should have to get PvP gear. Pve gear is so easy to get. You can get your specific mod crafted for pve where in pvp you have to grind several pieces to get one piece hire you like it. If you ask of a sudden make pve gear competitive for PvP, it won't sit week with the people who have spent days weeks and months even getting their gear how they want it.

 

Also, I could see this bringing in a lot of PVers to PvP to farm mats and not to win the match. This would add to the frustration pvpers already have.

 

So, please tell me you are not making pve gear as good as our even just slightly worse than ewh.

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Let me just post the definite solution to all problems real quick: Warzone repair bill on mods and/or unmoddable gear that don't carry expertise. No one would be PvP'ing in PvE gear anymore.

 

Let it sink in.

 

My ideas arent free so that will be 50 000 cartel coins.

Edited by MidichIorian
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Rob, can you comment on what the new total maximum expertise achievable will be?

 

Currently it's what, 1395?

 

With the changes you're mentioning and the removal of diminishing returns, this implies all PvP players will want to max expertise on every gear set.

 

I don't know what the exact number is off the top of my head, but one of the aspects of the system is that newPvP gear, regardless of what "tier" it is, will hit cap expertise. That is, getting higher level PvP gear won't increase your expertise stat, just more of every other stat.

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