Okay, I don't know about anyone else, but this is getting to be tiresome at best. Please tell me I am playing this class wrong or something.

On a few occasions I have been accused of spamming Grav Round. I asked one person "what is considered spamming to you?". He said "I already have 5 vortexs on me, why are you still casting Gravity Round?"

So what is considered spamming?

My rotation is the following:

Full Auto --> GR --> GR --> GR --> DEM RND ---> GR --> GR --> HiB.

Okay, during this rotation, if my Curtain of Fire procs, I do full auto immediately. So what gives? Yeah, I guess I am using one skill a lot, but I am not only using it to place vortexes on you, but I am also using it again to have the privileged to use Full Auto asap.

And with 1.2 coming out, we are going to need to cast GR even more in order to get Curtain of Fire to proc.

I would almost be foolish not to use GR in order to Proc FA again.

Bioware designed me to cast GR a lot, that is expected.

During all of this I use my stun, and my concussion charge if they get too close. Mortar Volley when they are bunched up. What am I doing wrong? Do other classes not understand us?

That's what most people do... GR is to build up vortexes so Demo and HIB hit harder. Full auto on CoF procs...

The ones who call you a grav round spammer are the mouth-breathers who have yet to figure out how to lock down and kill a gunnery commando (these are the worst pvpers in the game as locking down and killing a gunnery commando is a rather simple process). They just call you a GR spammer to make themselves feel better for being so bad.

Okay, I don't know about anyone else, but this is getting to be tiresome at best. Please tell me I am playing this class wrong or something.

 

On a few occasions I have been accused of spamming Grav Round....

 

...What am I doing wrong? Do other classes not understand us?

Screw 'em. You're not doing anything wrong that I can see (YMMV, I'm a noob, but it sounds fine to me.)

Do what works, and stacking a few GRs followed by HIB or Demo works really well.

In defense of the "mouth breathers" it's actually not remotely simple at all. I can reasonably reliably lock down missile spamming mercs and grav round spamming commandos in war zones and I'll be the first person to tell you that it's no easy feat. Besides using my interrupt, which is on a longer cool down than the 0 cool down of grav round, I have make sure that at least one of my force push, force stasis or awe are on COOL down otherwise there's a reasonable chance I may not make it out alive. Getting hit with Grav Round is the worst possible thing, considering that it does a ridiculous amount of damage in and of itself and makes me easier to kill as well. The amount of abilities that I need to use as a Jedi Guardian to make sure that I don't get COMPLETELY FACE ROLLED by a commando/merc using a single ability is what us light saber wielders find to be most annoying. It certainly isn't that it can't be done. It's just the difficulty in doing it is reasonably monumental and often understated by the "mouth breathing" commando community.

In defense of the "mouth breathers" it's actually not remotely simple at all. I can reasonably reliably lock down missile spamming mercs and grav round spamming commandos in war zones and I'll be the first person to tell you that it's no easy feat. Besides using my interrupt, which is on a longer cool down than the 0 cool down of grav round, I have make sure that at least one of my force push, force stasis or awe are on COOL down otherwise there's a reasonable chance I may not make it out alive. Getting hit with Grav Round is the worst possible thing, considering that it does a ridiculous amount of damage in and of itself and makes me easier to kill as well. The amount of abilities that I need to use as a Jedi Guardian to make sure that I don't get COMPLETELY FACE ROLLED by a commando/merc using a single ability is what us light saber wielders find to be most annoying. It certainly isn't that it can't be done. It's just the difficulty in doing it is reasonably monumental and often understated by the "mouth breathing" commando community.

 

You have an interrupt, force push, force stasis, awe, LoS and mobility...

Commandos and Mercs have stationary damage. We are the scissors and you can choose whether you are going to be the paper or the rock..

I have a 50 guardian. If I'm gonna look for soemone to take out of the equation, it's gonna be a merc or commando, it's just so easy.

Grav round itself doesn't do anywhere near the dmg of demo round, even before to 20% gap increase between the two with 1.2

The massive dmg you are talking about is heat signatures and/or grav vortexes from multiple merc or commandos stacking. This is a bug the are fixing in 1.2.

My highest grav round crits might break 3k right now w/ 5 vortexes, it's the immediate demo round that follows the third grav round that does the real dmg, and if HIB is up after 1 GCD.. Yeah..

You have an interrupt, force push, force stasis, awe, LoS and mobility...

 

Commandos and Mercs have stationary damage. We are the scissors and you can choose whether you are going to be the paper or the rock..

Yes, we do have all of those things. I didn't say that we didn't. What I'm saying is that we need to have all of those things immediately available currently or we get grav rounded to death. You can LOS a merc but if we've done that to stay alive then we're not exactly killing you. And by not exactly killing you I mean we're not killing you at all and are only a small step sideways around a corner away from being shot at again with no ability to retaliate.

I wasn't saying that it's impossible. As a matter of fact I was saying...

1) it's not as easy as you make it out to be.

2) we need the majority of those abilities off cool down in order to take down an equally geared Commando/Merc who is also of equal skill.

I'm just saying that you guys aren't giving the Jedi who are murdering you credit. Stopping a "Grav Spamming" merc isn't easy. It may be easy for some but for your average ( I like to consider myself somewhat above average) Guardian it requires a great deal of Focus... no pun intended.

Regarding the Vortex/Heat Signature bug, I wasn't aware of that. I'm glad they'll be fixing it in 1.2.

I'm not saying I can't sense the frustration of Commando players. If a Jedi Knight player who knows what he's doing gets on you it's damn near impossible to stop him. That's incredibly frustrating. But I'm just saying give us credit... it's NOT easy.

Yes, we do have all of those things. I didn't say that we didn't. What I'm saying is that we need to have all of those things immediately available currently or we get grav rounded to death. You can LOS a merc but if we've done that to stay alive then we're not exactly killing you. And by not exactly killing you I mean we're not killing you at all and are only a small step sideways around a corner away from being shot at again with no ability to retaliate.

 

I wasn't saying that it's impossible. As a matter of fact I was saying...

 

1) it's not as easy as you make it out to be.

 

2) we need the majority of those abilities off cool down in order to take down an equally geared Commando/Merc who is also of equal skill.

 

I'm just saying that you guys aren't giving the Jedi who are murdering you credit. Stopping a "Grav Spamming" merc isn't easy. It may be easy for some but for your average ( I like to consider myself somewhat above average) Guardian it requires a great deal of Focus... no pun intended.

 

Regarding the Vortex/Heat Signature bug, I wasn't aware of that. I'm glad they'll be fixing it in 1.2.

 

I'm not saying I can't sense the frustration of Commando players. If a Jedi Knight player who knows what he's doing gets on you it's damn near impossible to stop him. That's incredibly frustrating. But I'm just saying give us credit... it's NOT easy.

I always give credit where credit is due.. As a Guardian, I know what I can do to a Commando, especially since I have a Commando. No it's not "easy", per say, but compared to the other classes, it is the easiest; especially for a defense specced Guardian. Generally easier than it is for the Commando to retaliate.

As a commando, I have a set rotation to work on a melee who singles me out, when it goes bad for me (more often than not) I kite em to my healer.

That's what most people do... GR is to build up vortexes so Demo and HIB hit harder. Full auto on CoF procs...

 

The ones who call you a grav round spammer are the mouth-breathers who have yet to figure out how to lock down and kill a gunnery commando (these are the worst pvpers in the game as locking down and killing a gunnery commando is a rather simple process). They just call you a GR spammer to make themselves feel better for being so bad.

I think that the issue lies in perception of most other players. I have never played a merc/commando, but friends do. I understand the class is built around TM/GR for self-buff and procs.

Where the bad "spammer" perception comes in is when:

1) Someone stands in the middle of 4-5 people spamming it and never moving for a solid 30+seconds and only casting TM/GR a majority of the time.

2) The people that get interrupted, run around auto-shooting or using basic attack skill until its up again to start the cast and be interrupted again. So often I have faced Merc/Commando in PvP 1 on 1 and walked away with 90% health or more since the person only tried to cast this skill, with great futility.

3) In addition to point 2; I have equally been 1 on 1 against merc/commando that cast it maybe 1 or 2 times and seem to tear me up pretty well with all kinds of other skills. This leads me to believe that some people are so bad at PvP they only understand the 1-trick pony method of play.

4) When there are 3-5 merc/commandos on 1 team and they all spam it non-stop. Although, these matches often end up showing high kill rate for the merc/comms, but they still lose since most of them dont leave the point they stand on to get the objective.

Since a lot of bad PvPers rolled or rerolled the class after seeing 4k crits a few times; the above mentioned issues of bad players get seen a lot. This is like sentinel/marauder right now. Every one calls them super OP so a lot have rerolled them; I can honestly say I have seen some terrible players running around as sent/mara in a lot of WZ the last week or two.

Let people complain about you "spamming". The class is built to do so and if you are able to get off the shots and kill them, they are probably really bad at the game. LoS and interrupts + long cast time makes it pretty easy to avoid unless there are more than 2 in 1 match.

I think that the issue lies in perception of most other players. I have never played a merc/commando, but friends do. I understand the class is built around TM/GR for self-buff and procs.

 

Where the bad "spammer" perception comes in is when:

1) Someone stands in the middle of 4-5 people spamming it and never moving for a solid 30+seconds and only casting TM/GR a majority of the time.

2) The people that get interrupted, run around auto-shooting or using basic attack skill until its up again to start the cast and be interrupted again. So often I have faced Merc/Commando in PvP 1 on 1 and walked away with 90% health or more since the person only tried to cast this skill, with great futility.

3) In addition to point 2; I have equally been 1 on 1 against merc/commando that cast it maybe 1 or 2 times and seem to tear me up pretty well with all kinds of other skills. This leads me to believe that some people are so bad at PvP they only understand the 1-trick pony method of play.

4) When there are 3-5 merc/commandos on 1 team and they all spam it non-stop. Although, these matches often end up showing high kill rate for the merc/comms, but they still lose since most of them dont leave the point they stand on to get the objective.

 

Since a lot of bad PvPers rolled or rerolled the class after seeing 4k crits a few times; the above mentioned issues of bad players get seen a lot. This is like sentinel/marauder right now. Every one calls them super OP so a lot have rerolled them; I can honestly say I have seen some terrible players running around as sent/mara in a lot of WZ the last week or two.

 

Let people complain about you "spamming". The class is built to do so and if you are able to get off the shots and kill them, they are probably really bad at the game. LoS and interrupts + long cast time makes it pretty easy to avoid unless there are more than 2 in 1 match.

Pardon my lack of multi quote use..

1) I do that a lot. People see me and think "kill the gr spammer".. So my team lets them. Sages drop aoe heals on me, I do my normal rotation using cooldowns, health packs and some heals and the rest of my team goes for objectives while the 4+ from the other team beat on me relentlessly. It is quite amusing to watch and is generally the main topic of discussion in vent at least once/warzone.

2) No comment there, those people make me laugh too. And they wonder why charged bolts still has a place on my bar.

3) I see that too. Apparantly people who read grav round spam forget there are abilities like Full Auto and Demo Round and HiB, amongst others. Also don't forget about the CM/Gunnery Hybrid. You know, the players who spec to improve 1v1 play at the expense of actually being useful to the rest of the team by either excelling in dmg or heals.

4) That's a bug. Same w/ tracer missiles. Debuffs from multiple commando's and mercs stack, it's nasty, can take down a defense guardian with 18khp and close to 700 expertise in no time flat. Supposed to be fixed in 1.2.

I always give credit where credit is due.. As a Guardian, I know what I can do to a Commando, especially since I have a Commando. No it's not "easy", per say, but compared to the other classes, it is the easiest; especially for a defense specced Guardian. Generally easier than it is for the Commando to retaliate.

 

As a commando, I have a set rotation to work on a melee who singles me out, when it goes bad for me (more often than not) I kite em to my healer.

If you're a defense spec Guardian then yeah a Commando is pretty much your best match up. By "best match up" I mean you're ONLY good match up. With the plethora of stuns available to them it's a pretty good match.

Focus Guardians have it worst because they have no answer for their AoE knockback. But then again Focus Guardians do INSANE damage so it's good I guess.

If you're a defense spec Guardian then yeah a Commando is pretty much your best match up. By "best match up" I mean you're ONLY good match up. With the plethora of stuns available to them it's a pretty good match.

 

 

Focus Guardians have it worst because they have no answer for their AoE knockback. But then again Focus Guardians do INSANE damage so it's good I guess.

Zealous Leap?

Let people complain about you "spamming". The class is built to do so

i think this is the biggest misconception about spamming TM/GR. it's simply designed that way.

people who only spam TM/GR and people who use all the tools in gunnery/arsenal's... arsenal. well they both appear to be doing the same thing the majority of the time.

Zealous Leap?

10 meter range leap? That's not going to do you much good when you've been knocked off a railing in Huttball.

i think this is the biggest misconception about spamming TM/GR. it's simply designed that way.

people who only spam TM/GR and people who use all the tools in gunnery/arsenal's... arsenal. well they both appear to be doing the same thing the majority of the time.

Yep, just take it as a compliment. You made someone rage that they are calling you out in frustration, when they may have no idea what they are talking about.

It is hard to see instant casts and easy to easy to see an attack with a 1.5s cast time and a distinctive sound.

The complainers never take into account that you may be hitting a DPS when a healer comes up and you switch targets and begin stacking vortexes on him. It looks like spam but really you are just buidling up to burst the healer down.

i think this is the biggest misconception about spamming TM/GR. it's simply designed that way.

people who only spam TM/GR and people who use all the tools in gunnery/arsenal's... arsenal. well they both appear to be doing the same thing the majority of the time.

This is why I was hoping we'd get a more dynamic rotation by seeing the entire tree redesigned to not resolve around a single skill. You must use GR a ton, even if you're not the prototypical GR Spammer, if you want HIB/FA/Demo to be used as often or as effectively as possible.

For those that don't know you use Grav Round to...

- Stack your armor debuff on the target. Needs 3 shots to hit full debuff stack

- Refresh your debuff stack every 15 seconds

- Stack your self defense buff. Needs 5 shots to hit full defense stack

- Refresh your self defense buff.

- Stack your HIB damage buff. Needs 5 shots to reach max damage bonus.

- Fish for chances to reset Full Auto.

There's a reason it is used constantly, and a damage nerf won't change that. It's still going to get used just as often because so much of our tree revolves around it. Every time you change targets you start at square one (no debuffs) as well so it forces even more spam.

If BW wanted to cut down on the number of GR/TM that happen they should have change the trees to not revolve around this one skill. Until that happens tell anyone that gives you grief about being a spammer to be quiet...you really don't have much of a choice if you're Gunnery.

There's a reason it is used constantly, and a damage nerf won't change that. It's still going to get used just as often because so much of our tree revolves around it. Every time you change targets you start at square one (no debuffs) as well so it forces even more spam.

 

If BW wanted to cut down on the number of GR/TM that happen they should have change the trees to not revolve around this one skill. Until that happens tell anyone that gives you grief about being a spammer to be quiet...you really don't have much of a choice if you're Gunnery.

Very well said. I'm still in the process of leveling my gunnery commando and I've actually checked myself a few times -- essentially accusing myself of spamming GR -- but when you have so many other abilities that are tied to a stack produced and maintained only by GR, you really have no reasonable alternative but to use GR very frequently.

I haven't really thought this through, but the idea just came to me:

IF you want to see players use GR less,

AND players are dependent on repetetive GR use to build their stacks,

THEN you have two ways to reduce GR use:

1) Increase the number of stacks granted by each use of GR. If there were a skill that further bumped the vortex yield of a single GR to 3 instead of 2, it would only take 2 GR to hit your max instead of 3 -- a 33% reduction in GR use (at least for that particular debuff).

2) Grant other skills the ability to add to those stacks. What if, say, Charged Bolts or even Explosive Round (once appropriately skilled) would add to those stacks, or even proc an ability that would increase the duration of those stacks before they wear off?

This is why I was hoping we'd get a more dynamic rotation by seeing the entire tree redesigned to not resolve around a single skill. You must use GR a ton, even if you're not the prototypical GR Spammer, if you want HIB/FA/Demo to be used as often or as effectively as possible.

 

For those that don't know you use Grav Round to...

 

- Stack your armor debuff on the target. Needs 3 shots to hit full debuff stack

- Refresh your debuff stack every 15 seconds

- Stack your self defense buff. Needs 5 shots to hit full defense stack

- Refresh your self defense buff.

- Stack your HIB damage buff. Needs 5 shots to reach max damage bonus.

- Fish for chances to reset Full Auto.

 

There's a reason it is used constantly, and a damage nerf won't change that. It's still going to get used just as often because so much of our tree revolves around it. Every time you change targets you start at square one (no debuffs) as well so it forces even more spam.

 

If BW wanted to cut down on the number of GR/TM that happen they should have change the trees to not revolve around this one skill. Until that happens tell anyone that gives you grief about being a spammer to be quiet...you really don't have much of a choice if you're Gunnery.

I believe there is legitimate concern that GR is a skill with too much utility. You listed them all. So this skill has 6 uses in 1 GCD. If not OP I don't know what is.

I agree with you that they need to diversify the skills not just to let commandos/mercs not be bored but also because it has too much utility in 1 cast.

I believe there is legitimate concern that GR is a skill with too much utility. You listed them all. So this skill has 6 uses in 1 GCD. If not OP I don't know what is.

 

I agree with you that they need to diversify the skills not just to let commandos/mercs not be bored but also because it has too much utility in 1 cast.

I think too focal is a more befitting description. The armor debuff I would call utility but the other primary items like triggering full-auto's refresh/damage boost, the HiB/demo damage stacking I don't consider utility because they are player-centric mechanics.

That said it would be nice to not be reliant on grav alone. I don't really mind the simplistic pve rotation but in warzones the bigger toolbox would be nice, and since this is my second 50 and the guild I am in is short on ranged dps for ops healing or assault are out until dual-spec comes to pass.

From the point of view of my first 50 that pretty much exclusively pvp's I think the biggest annoyance with the skill comes in something like huttball where I 'm trying to work the objective and that merc/commando in the corner just hunkers down to attack me. It is irritating to have to ignore doing anything regarding the objective while I double back to take him down or try and LoS away.

I realize by removing me from the fight (by death or keeping me occupied) he's doing his job, but somehow it just seems more irritating then push-stun-run (or rather knockback since my main doesn't have push, just flowed better) on a melee or healing through sorc dps.

and you even forgot to mention the bonus damage to demo round

and cell charger gets more procs with Grav Round with the 2-set PVE bonus

grav round is just the de facto gunnery skill and will continue to be so post 1.2

the damage wasn't the only reason it's such a spammed skill, so only lowering the damage isn't going to change anything.

I believe there is legitimate concern that GR is a skill with too much utility. You listed them all. So this skill has 6 uses in 1 GCD. If not OP I don't know what is.

 

I agree with you that they need to diversify the skills not just to let commandos/mercs not be bored but also because it has too much utility in 1 cast.

Then you don't know what is because there are not "6 uses." First, he left off "refresh the buff to HIB (Charged Barrel)," which would be seven "uses" by your count. However, that is a bogus way of counting. "Refreshing" a buff or debuff is simply reapplying it. They are not two different actions. Counting it as two would be the same thing as counting each application of the Gravity Vortex stack as a separate function. There are only four things that happen (aside from damage):

- Applies a stacking armor debuff on the target

- Applies a stacking damage reduction buff on the Commando

- Applies a stacking damage buff to High Impact Bolt on the Commando

- Has a chance to proc a buff to Full Auto

You will likely counter that that 4 uses is still OP, but one can only conclude that if that is all they look at.

First, it takes 1.5 seconds to cast the skill. That can be interrupted, preventing the Commando from being able to use it again for 4 seconds. Since interrupts are not subject to Resolve or any other kind of immunity, multiple people could chain interrupt successive attempts to use this. Additionally, because it is a channeled attack, knockbacks and pulls can also stop its cast. Forcing the Commando to move to avoid AoEs or focused fire, to over come line of site, or to keep within range of the target will all also stop its cast.

Second, aside from the chance to proc the buff to Full Auto, every one of those other uses applies to a stacking buff or debuff, and one of them -- Charged Barrel, the buff to HIB -- is consumed on use, meaning it has to be reapplied every time HIB is used, and another, the armor debuff, has to be applied from scratch when you switch targets.

If all these functions could be applied to full affect from a single cast of the skill and/or if the skill were instant cast, and, therefore, could not be prevented from being cast, the suggestion that it was OP might have some traction. However, I just gave six or seven ways to prevent its cast, and it takes at least five casts to apply those four uses to full effect (one of which is consumed on use, requiring 5 more casts to rebuff).

In other words, it is not "OP" to have a skill to have four different uses when it takes 5 global cooldowns, or 7.5 seconds, during which the Commando has to be immobile to apply those uses to full effect, and when there are six or seven different ways to prevent that skill from casting and when one of those uses is consumed on use requiring another 7.5 seconds of immobility to reapply it to full use. And that does not even take into account that the debuff is applied to the target, meaning you have to spend another 3 GCDs, or 4.5 seconds, of immobility to fully reapply the debuff to the new target.

That's what most people do... GR is to build up vortexes so Demo and HIB hit harder. Full auto on CoF procs...

 

The ones who call you a grav round spammer are the mouth-breathers who have yet to figure out how to lock down and kill a gunnery commando (these are the worst pvpers in the game as locking down and killing a gunnery commando is a rather simple process). They just call you a GR spammer to make themselves feel better for being so bad.

Its not quite as simple for melee to lock anyone down, especially when KB'd and slowed. Its not this dudes fault though. It's BW's for having a 1 button class in the game.

Then you don't know what is because there are not "6 uses." First, he left off "refresh the buff to HIB (Charged Barrel)," which would be seven "uses" by your count. However, that is a bogus way of counting. "Refreshing" a buff or debuff is simply reapplying it. They are not two different actions. Counting it as two would be the same thing as counting each application of the Gravity Vortex stack as a separate function. There are only four things that happen (aside from damage):

 

- Applies a stacking armor debuff on the target

- Applies a stacking damage reduction buff on the Commando

- Applies a stacking damage buff to High Impact Bolt on the Commando

- Has a chance to proc a buff to Full Auto

 

You will likely counter that that 4 uses is still OP, but one can only conclude that if that is all they look at.

 

First, it takes 1.5 seconds to cast the skill. That can be interrupted, preventing the Commando from being able to use it again for 4 seconds. Since interrupts are not subject to Resolve or any other kind of immunity, multiple people could chain interrupt successive attempts to use this. Additionally, because it is a channeled attack, knockbacks and pulls can also stop its cast. Forcing the Commando to move to avoid AoEs or focused fire, to over come line of site, or to keep within range of the target will all also stop its cast.

 

Second, aside from the chance to proc the buff to Full Auto, every one of those other uses applies to a stacking buff or debuff, and one of them -- Charged Barrel, the buff to HIB -- is consumed on use, meaning it has to be reapplied every time HIB is used, and another, the armor debuff, has to be applied from scratch when you switch targets.

 

If all these functions could be applied to full affect from a single cast of the skill and/or if the skill were instant cast, and, therefore, could not be prevented from being cast, the suggestion that it was OP might have some traction. However, I just gave six or seven ways to prevent its cast, and it takes at least five casts to apply those four uses to full effect (one of which is consumed on use, requiring 5 more casts to rebuff).

 

In other words, it is not "OP" to have a skill to have four different uses when it takes 5 global cooldowns, or 7.5 seconds, during which the Commando has to be immobile to apply those uses to full effect, and when there are six or seven different ways to prevent that skill from casting and when one of those uses is consumed on use requiring another 7.5 seconds of immobility to reapply it to full use. And that does not even take into account that the debuff is applied to the target, meaning you have to spend another 3 GCDs, or 4.5 seconds, of immobility to fully reapply the debuff to the new target.

May be a little off the topic at hand but a Shadow/Assassin can be immune to a Sorc/Sage interrupt. The blanket statement, "Since interrupts are not subject to Resolve or any other kind of immunity"