The thing is, we can't have a discussion about our rights, or about equality, or parity in representation without some outspoken opponent to our rights and equality making it political. Look at the first page. It only took eight replies before someone made this about politics. Every single SSR option is shared. There are 19 OSR only comps in the game. While two of those have been brought back (and one that never was was added) as PSR (player-sexual romance) options they are still shared and class locked. There isn't a single SSR only comp in the game, and if one was ever added these forums would blow up with the political posts because opponents to our equality can't help but make it political.

Honestly, I think they shot themselves in the foot by limiting Jaesa and Nadia to only the JC.

 

Same with Kira if she is limited when they bring her back. Another fantastic character. Could have opened this chars for everyone and given them more content. Its getting old so many being gated now by death options and class restrictions making it even harder for them to give content for those toons... why?!

I wish they had never put romance story lines into this MMO. Not because I don't enjoy them, and not because I think they are ridiculous or whatever else... but for one simple reason: It doesn't work for an MMO style game. It's something that works out much, much better and more effectively in a single-player game where there are limits to how many expansions and extensions to the story come along down the line. I applaud Bioware for attempting to put that single-player story feel into this MMO, but I think we can all agree that it has received mixed reviews and reactions, and I think for very good reason.

 

If this game was all about the story line, and they had kept the staff of dozens of writers so that each class story could continue on it's own as a separate plot, then maybe. But that's not what this MMO is. Yes, story is a heavy part of the game, and yes it is the reason many people play it. But the fact is, there are lots of parts of the game that require work and focus that doesn't involve story telling. There is no story component to PvP. There is no story component to PvE operations (even if they are related to parts of the story line being introduced, they are absolutely NOT part of the actual story, and other than a few throw away lines in cut scenes as the intro to a boss fight, they have nearly zero story relevance or impact).

 

Also, because of the nature of the on-going MMO world, the stories become too complex when you add in 15 or 20 romantic options for each class, gender, race, whatever. Without a writing team of dozens of people (or more!) there is no way to keep up with all of that. I bet if you asked Charles (and he could be honest with you) he would likely say there are less than 10 writers in total working on the whole game. I would also be willing to bet it's less than 5. You just can't support heavy story telling with that sized crew, and especially not when they also have to work on non-story elements of the game.

 

It would have been lots cleaner to leave all the romance stuff to people's head cannon. I don't hate what they've done, but it will never be satisfying to those who only really enjoy that part of this game, because there is too much other stuff that requires development and not enough people to do even that anymore.

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Edited December 15, 2018 by PennyAnn

I wish they had never put romance story lines into this MMO. Not because I don't enjoy them, and not because I think they are ridiculous or whatever else... but for one simple reason: It doesn't work for an MMO style game. It's something that works out much, much better and more effectively in a single-player game where there are limits to how many expansions and extensions to the story come along down the line. I applaud Bioware for attempting to put that single-player story feel into this MMO, but I think we can all agree that it has received mixed reviews and reactions, and I think for very good reason.

 

If this game was all about the story line, and they had kept the staff of dozens of writers so that each class story could continue on it's own as a separate plot, then maybe. But that's not what this MMO is. Yes, story is a heavy part of the game, and yes it is the reason many people play it. But the fact is, there are lots of parts of the game that require work and focus that doesn't involve story telling. There is no story component to PvP. There is no story component to PvE operations (even if they are related to parts of the story line being introduced, they are absolutely NOT part of the actual story, and other than a few throw away lines in cut scenes as the intro to a boss fight, they have nearly zero story relevance or impact).

 

Also, because of the nature of the on-going MMO world, the stories become too complex when you add in 15 or 20 romantic options for each class, gender, race, whatever. Without a writing team of dozens of people (or more!) there is no way to keep up with all of that. I bet if you asked Charles (and he could be honest with you) he would likely say there are less than 10 writers in total working on the whole game. I would also be willing to bet it's less than 5. You just can't support heavy story telling with that sized crew, and especially not when they also have to work on non-story elements of the game.

 

It would have been lots cleaner to leave all the romance stuff to people's head cannon. I don't hate what they've done, but it will never be satisfying to those who only really enjoy that part of this game, because there is too much other stuff that requires development and not enough people to do even that anymore.

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Agree with quite a lot of points! Welcome back, glad you found it worth subbing for again! ^_^

Agree with quite a lot of points! Welcome back, glad you found it worth subbing for again! ^_^

 

Hate to say, but I am not. I clicked a referral to help a friend. I'm not playing SWTOR at all anymore. I thought I might come back for 5.10, but with all the new additions to WoW, I'm finding myself more interested and entertained over there these days.

 

(edited to add: Maybe 6.0 will have more to offer to entice me, but 5.10 wasn't quite enough of a draw for me, personally).

 

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Edited December 15, 2018 by PennyAnn

Oh here we go. Pixel relations are srs bsns.

 

/popcorn

 

Representation matters to people that have historically been depicted dishonestly, if at all.

If I may ask a genuine question: is it actually worth it?

 

I've watched videos or just flat out checked out all recent romances (including the return of the vanilla ones) and I can honestly say that I've never been this uninterested in romance as I've been while watching those (and I'm a lady who likes her romances).

 

To all the Arcann lovers that screamed and shouted and demanded that he become a romance option: did you have fun with his 2 minute long cutscene, out of which 1.45 was the same generic one as the non- romanced Arcann? Each of these 15, 20, 30 second romances take away from time spent working on the actual story, time on refining what's already there.

 

If they HAVE to work on romance, I'd rather they pay proper homage to existing romances than just creating new, shallow, 30 second long ones.

 

Anyway, good luck and happy hunting! (I'll be gone in 4 days so thank you to anyone who bothers to respond to me- if I don't talk back it's most likely because I simply can't)

Edited December 15, 2018 by asiasusanna

Ima support this topic.Female romances for everybody!!

Video game romances are not substitutes for real romantic relationships.

 

You are right! That's what sex doll are for

As far as the rabbit hole of too many diverging story/romance branches--it seems like there are plenty of unpaid, unqualified, non-professional, non-writers who do a much better job of keeping track of those branches and many potential branches, all while keeping established lore rules in mind. I don't see why we should give professional writers a pass because they can't handle two branches anymore?

 

They're using the same excuse the current programmers use about how archaic the system is and when they change one thing in Section A, something in Section R breaks down, and if they change Section R back, Section U7$ breaks down catastrophically.

 

It's like the programmers are at a recycling center sorting a million individual items a day into countless different places, and the writers are like the idiot in a house that can't figure out if they should separate the glass from the plastic bottles, and the idiot complains about what a pain it is to recycle.

 

On the same subject, I'll bet a lot of people could also make sure that in one scene, my character isn't suddenly 6'5'' and my target LI is 5'8'', and in another scene it's the exact opposite.

Edited December 15, 2018 by aerockyul

As far as the rabbit hole of too many diverging story/romance branches--it seems like there are plenty of unpaid, unqualified, non-professional, non-writers who do a much better job of keeping track of those branches and many potential branches, all while keeping established lore rules in mind. I don't see why we should give professional writers a pass because they can't handle two branches anymore?

 

They're using the same excuse the current programmers use about how archaic the system is and when they change one thing in Section A, something in Section R breaks down, and if they change Section R back, Section U7$ breaks down catastrophically.

 

It's like the programmers are at a recycling center sorting a million individual items a day into countless different places, and the writers are like the idiot in a house that can't figure out if they should separate the glass from the plastic bottles, and the idiot complains about what a pain it is to recycle.

 

On the same subject, I'll bet a lot of people could also make sure that in one scene, my character isn't suddenly 6'5'' and my target LI is 5'8'', and in another scene it's the exact opposite.

 

You do know it's not just two separate branches, right? I mean there are what, 24 current possible romance options throughout the entire game and they aren't just romance/non-romance ... there's killed/left or exiled/stayed but not romanced/stayed but romanced options (so that's like 4 branches) for some of them (yes even if a character is dead they have to account for that) and now there's another thing they have to consider: did that companion return for all classes or one class or two classes. If the writers ever want to use one of those companion for anything now they have to take into account all of the possible statuses that companion might be in.

You do know it's not just two separate branches, right? I mean there are what, 24 current possible romance options throughout the entire game and they aren't just romance/non-romance ... there's killed/left or exiled/stayed but not romanced/stayed but romanced options (so that's like 4 branches) for some of them (yes even if a character is dead they have to account for that) and now there's another thing they have to consider: did that companion return for all classes or one class or two classes. If the writers ever want to use one of those companion for anything now they have to take into account all of the possible statuses that companion might be in.

 

Nooooooo, I thought there was just two! Holy **** have I had my eyes closed for 7 years and you opened them!

 

Yes, it's hard to work with dead, not dead, romanced, not romanced. You're just adding a couple more bins I have to separate the recycling into--will the madness and difficulty ever end!?

Edited December 15, 2018 by aerockyul

The direction of the game, romance wise is to make the new characters player sexual. You can flirt with the new Twi'lek as a female, and I assume male but not sure. And I don't know much about the republic side but the main characters there are also female. Seems like a few female romances may be coming our way with this story arc.

 

It's nice that they flipped Jaesa and Nadia into being romanced by both genders, same with Khem Val. But with very few companions left to return, I think there are no more than 5 left but with the change to make them only come back to their original classes, I've straight up forgotten about most of them.

 

Kira I would expect to be both genders, Scourge, honestly I don't care if he's romanced, I just want him on my Sith Warrior, I feel that warriors got screwed around with not having Risha be recruitable by them, therefor not having a Risha/Vette reunion but since Vette is also killable, that will never happen anyways, that right there is a real dropped ball by the writing staff. It's like the guys writing the game not haven't even played the game.

 

Enough ranting on that and back to the subject at hand, you take away the vanilla game content and add in everything afterwards, the romances lean more gay than straight, with a gay sith and bi woman on Makeb and everything else being player sexual(unless Arcann is only for the women, I'm not sure)

 

And going forward I expect everything else will be player sexual, and with it seeming like there are more female characters than males being released, I would say you should be quite sated with F/F options in the next expansion/next few patches.

I see people talking about 'representation' and 'how alienating it is to see just hetero options for vanilla companions' but I really question how people with this mindset ever got into gaming in the first place. Video games are meant to be about immersing yourself into a different universe, not about social/political issues. A great story is meant to come first especially in an RPG.

 

The reality is not every person is going to be represented and that's not a bad thing necessarily. You just make do with what is given. Can't people let go of their real world identity for a few hours in a fictional video game universe?

Like I don't see many Chinese looking NPC's in Swtor yet I don't see dozens of threads of Chinese players complaining about the lack of diversity and representation. Their mindset is 'If I'm represented, cool. If not, who cares?'. I wish others could be like that sometimes.

 

I have no issue with LGBT romances many of my toons are in SGR's but it's not something that needs upfront attention. If it's added, cool. If not, make do with something else. We're not all going to have our way all the time.

I see people talking about 'representation' and 'how alienating it is to see just hetero options for vanilla companions' but I really question how people with this mindset ever got into gaming in the first place. Video games are meant to be about immersing yourself into a different universe, not about social/political issues. A great story is meant to come first especially in an RPG.

 

The reality is not every person is going to be represented and that's not a bad thing necessarily. You just make do with what is given. Can't people let go of their real world identity for a few hours in a fictional video game universe?

Like I don't see many Chinese looking NPC's in Swtor yet I don't see dozens of threads of Chinese players complaining about the lack of diversity and representation. Their mindset is 'If I'm represented, cool. If not, who cares?'. I wish others could be like that sometimes.

 

I have no issue with LGBT romances many of my toons are in SGR's but it's not something that needs upfront attention. If it's added, cool. If not, make do with something else. We're not all going to have our way all the time.

 

It's a lot easier to "make do with what's given" when you've always been part of the group that's been represented in games.

I see people talking about 'representation' and 'how alienating it is to see just hetero options for vanilla companions' but I really question how people with this mindset ever got into gaming in the first place. Video games are meant to be about immersing yourself into a different universe, not about social/political issues. A great story is meant to come first especially in an RPG.

 

The reality is not every person is going to be represented and that's not a bad thing necessarily. You just make do with what is given. Can't people let go of their real world identity for a few hours in a fictional video game universe?

Like I don't see many Chinese looking NPC's in Swtor yet I don't see dozens of threads of Chinese players complaining about the lack of diversity and representation. Their mindset is 'If I'm represented, cool. If not, who cares?'. I wish others could be like that sometimes.

 

I have no issue with LGBT romances many of my toons are in SGR's but it's not something that needs upfront attention. If it's added, cool. If not, make do with something else. We're not all going to have our way all the time.

 

Just because we can't always have our way doesn't mean people will stop asking for the things that they prefer in any game. How it should be, really. We ask, the devs gage how much call there is for one thing or another and decide if it's enough people who want it to make it worthwhile doing. That doesn't mean everyone expects every thing that they ask for to happen. It just means they are offering up suggestions in the hope that they will get to see the things they would love to see. It also givesthe devs ideas of what to take on board going forwards and what not to. The main reason why most mmo's and even single player games these days hsve forums, for feedback, ideas, suggestions, wish lists if you will.

Edited December 15, 2018 by Suzsi

It's a lot easier to "make do with what's given" when you've always been part of the group that's been represented in games.

 

Well the main demographic of video gamers are straight therefore most video game companies will believe it or not appeal to their main demographic. It would be like me as a biracial person moving to Japan, turning on the TV and wondering why 99% of TV shows feature ethnic Japanese people and why there are no brown people.

I'm the minority since and I'm not always going to be represented. If I am, cool. If not, no big deal. That's a real world situation so in a fictional video game it should mean even less since you can be whatever you want to be.

Just because we can't always have our way doesn't mean people will stop asking for the things that they prefer in any game. How it should be, really. We ask, the devs gage how much call there is for one thing or another and decide if it's enough people who want it to make it worthwhile doing. That doesn't mean everyone expects every thing that they ask for to happen. It just means they are offering up suggestions in the hope that they will get to see the things they would love to see. It also givesthe devs ideas of what to take on board going forwards and what not to. The main reason why most mmo's and even single player games these days hsve forums, for feedback, ideas, suggestions, wish lists if you will.

 

True but here's the thing the forums are only speaking for a handful of people. Most people who play Swtor don't use the forums so Bioware is only getting recommendations from the same people. I can't tell you how many people I've come across in-game saying they would love a SCORPIO romance (may be a joke but I'll take at face value) for example but their voices don't get heard because they don't use the forums. Perhaps if everyone in-game migrated to the forums we'd be getting a much diverse range of what people want but right now we are only getting the same opinions.

Video game romances are not substitutes for real romantic relationships.

 

They are for me.Ima old lonely guy with no friends.

Video game romances are not substitutes for real romantic relationships.

 

They are for me.Ima old lonely guy with no friends.

 

I have no RL friends either! Honestly, having social anxiety, I can't really handle friends at this time. /Shrugs

People always find it embarrassing to admit, but it is what it is!

Edited December 15, 2018 by Eshvara

Nooooooo, I thought there was just two! Holy **** have I had my eyes closed for 7 years and you opened them!

 

Yes, it's hard to work with dead, not dead, romanced, not romanced. You're just adding a couple more bins I have to separate the recycling into--will the madness and difficulty ever end!?

 

If you know there's more than two separate branches then why did you whine that they couldn't handle two branches? And now you've opened my eyes ... writing is just like sorting out recycling. I never knew that! Wow ... I mean, that's so easy almost everyone should be an award winning author.

Video game romances are not substitutes for real romantic relationships.

 

That's it people, that's the sign we've been waiting for. Burn all the books containing romances, crush all the DVD's and Blurays that have movies on them involving a romance story. Delete all the songs about relationships from your Spotify lists. Humanity is no longer allowed to create stories about love, romance and relationships. Yes, I know we've been inventing stories and tales for millennia to amuse ourselves, I know we've been writing stories about love, romance and courtship for centuries purely for our enjoyment, but you've just heard it: they're not a substitute for the real thing, so we can no longer enjoy them...

Edited December 16, 2018 by Ylliarus

Honestly, I think they shot themselves in the foot by limiting Jaesa and Nadia to only the JC.

 

I think they should have made both of these companions recruitable by everyone, but in terms of the romance content, they would have needed separate lines for the other seven classes. Both Nadia and Jaesa's romance lines reference them knowing the PC for a while. Jaesa declares her strong love for the PC for instance. That's a little surprising for a Sith Warrior to hear IMHO and it would be really, really weird for Jaesa to say that to another class PC she just met. Nadia says something like she always felt there was something more but never acted on it, which again wouldn't have made sense with another class.

 

Perfect case scenario, it certainly would have been doable. The companions that returned during KOTFE, Iokath and Copero had different flags/dialogue when talking to their own class. They could have done that here and given Jaesa and Nadia some milder flirts about wanting to get to know the PC, while giving the JC and SW different lines to take it further. But realistically I think that was beyond their budget/ right now.

I think they should have made both of these companions recruitable by everyone, but in terms of the romance content, they would have needed separate lines for the other seven classes. Both Nadia and Jaesa's romance lines reference them knowing the PC for a while. Jaesa declares her strong love for the PC for instance. That's a little surprising for a Sith Warrior to hear IMHO and it would be really, really weird for Jaesa to say that to another class PC she just met. Nadia says something like she always felt there was something more but never acted on it, which again wouldn't have made sense with another class.

 

Perfect case scenario, it certainly would have been doable. The companions that returned during KOTFE, Iokath and Copero had different flags/dialogue when talking to their own class. They could have done that here and given Jaesa and Nadia some milder flirts about wanting to get to know the PC, while giving the JC and SW different lines to take it further. But realistically I think that was beyond their budget/ right now.

Agreed. That level of variation would've been quite ambitious, and considering how even a character like Koth has been silent for some time, it's doubtful that Bioware are in a position to provide us with something like you describe. All the same, it would've been nice for the returning characters to be recruitable by everyone, even if they were only romanceable by their original class.

If you know there's more than two separate branches then why did you whine that they couldn't handle two branches? And now you've opened my eyes ... writing is just like sorting out recycling. I never knew that! Wow ... I mean, that's so easy almost everyone should be an award winning author.

 

Because they're pretty much proving that they can't handle it anymore, and a large portion of people in these forums prove it's not all that hard to deal with multiple paths. I guess all the posts about what kill-options do to companions have gone over your head as much as my sarcasm did.

 

I'm not really bashing the authors, who are most likely constrained more by budget than imagination, but I am bashing the idea that it's soooooo difficult to deal with a world where dead for some doesn't have to mean dead for all, and I think that's a lame cop-out, especially considering this is Bioware we're talking about. It's their freakin' brand to work with diverging paths! People are head over heels for simple two paragraph letters and they can't even do that for some of them (forgive me if I'm not impressed that I got a tiny letter from Qyzen, who I've never even talked to on the character that received it).

 

Believe me, I want to be proven otherwise, but I'm not going to get so excited that they're suddenly adding single flirts--until it goes further than that it smacks of "here's your flirts you've all been begging us for from the beginning, now sthu and go back to grinding masterwork crystals for the next 18 months"