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EricMusco/devs: Can you please explain how reg matchmaking works in 5.10.1?


abhaxus

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I know that in 5.9(?) some sort of silent ELO/matchmaking was supposed to be introduced in regs. I feel as if I remember that in a later patch it was either tweaked or removed.

 

From my experience, it seems as if matchmaking goes something like playground kickball, but with groups:

Team A:

Group of 4 players

2nd rated solo q

4th rated solo q

6th rated solo q

8th rated solo q

 

Team B:

1st rated solo q

3rd rated solo q

5th rated solo q

7th rated solo q

9-12 rated solo q

 

The matchmaking I've seen for the last few months has certainly seemed to be "off" in many ways. As a better than average player who almost exclusively queues solo, I've found that if a group is in queue, I am almost never on the same team as a group, and almost always on a team that is far and away worse than the other team. Worse yet, if there are two groups of 4 queuing, if both groups are near my skill level (or at least, one group is not significantly worse than me), I end up on a team of all solo players against both groups.

 

I suppose this can be explained by the matchmaker averaging whatever skill quotient/silent ELO is being used across groups and then across teams. If the 4 mans are not significantly higher skill than any of the solo players, they can get grouped together regardless of how bad some of the solo players might be.

 

Either way, can I suggest that if a team is grouped, they get a 'boost' to their skill quotient/silent ELO? Like, a group of 2 has their average score doubled, group of 3 tripled, group of 4 quadrupled? That would force the matchmaker to balance the teams where perhaps the top 3 or 4 solo q players would be on the same team. I realize that sometimes, there's just not much to work with. Sometimes all the players in queue are really bad. But it's a start.

 

Regs have gotten quite a bit worse since 5.9. Since I don't play any other WZ format, it's pretty disheartening playing solo right now.

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I would also like a detailed explanation because I don’t think it’s working as well as it should.

 

Here is an example from lowbies pvp I was playing today.

 

It puts 4 lvl 35-39 people on one team (with a healer or tank) and puts lvl 11-19 on the other team with no healer or tank.

What’s worse is when it does the first 4 as described and then only puts 3 people of low lvl on the other team.

This kills the queue really fast because people get sick of how this ends up. 100% loss for the low guys and the team with 3.

 

These teams of 3 aren’t someone leaving or not popping. They rotate every map. One game is 3v4, the next is 4v3 and they are all exactly the same players.

If there are only 7 people in the queue, it should pop 3v3 and not 3v4. I would rather sit out a pop and wait so we didn’t have this happen.

 

Lvl 70 regs isn’t any better because once you win 3 -4 matches in a row, it puts you on a team of 7 low skilled players to carry vs a whole team of skilled players? That isn’t the sort of match making I envisaged when it was first announced.

Some people see this worse than others and I think a lot has to do with what time you play and on what server. The more people you have of equal skill in the queue, the less likely you will see what I’ve described.

 

I believe there is a bug somewhere or something needs to be tweaked some more. But we can’t help Bioware test it and provide proper feed back if we don’t have all the facts.

Please Eric, explain exaclty how it’s supposed to work so we can test to see if that’s what’s happening.

Edited by TrixxieTriss
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((Firstly, I'm going to bounce from one topic to another. Don't get your knickers in a twist over it!))

 

MAN! I don't believe anyone knows how the matchmaking works anymore. And, at this point, I don't feel like it will get fixed. But Trixxie explained all my matches in a nutshell. That should be the /thread right there! The majority of my matches play out the same. Huttball for example. I'm the Full-time QB, RB, and WR on Offense. I just play safety, on defense. Every match I play I feel like I'm Anakin, and the other team is Obi-Wan with the high ground. And I embrace my inner Vader and go full dark side on Obi-wan. Most games it feels like I do get most of my limbs severed.

 

The enemy team always works together against "me." I don't blame them. But I'm determined to win in Huttball. I absolutely love it. I don't care if I'm against a premade or just a few friends having fun. I'm going full bacon in a skillet, full sizzle no ham. Not every game though. I might take a break behind a trashcan or a unit to cry and be depressed if my team is just "Deathmatching." But, I digress! With my grievances aside. The matchmaking is "Better" than what it has been recently. ((LET ME FINISH!!!!!)

 

It is not perfect, nor should it be! There has definitely been an improvement. I noticed a shift in the teams. in the majority of the games I play. Teams aren't as Healer/tanked stacked. Though you do run into it. It is not as frequent. Having said that!! Another person's experience may vary! ((I CAN'T HELP THAT!))

 

Matchmaking itself isn't the only issue. Have to throw in the classes, and the imbalances they bring. Like for example Sorc/sages with powers on Odessen. They can use all their abilities with no drawback. Could throw in sniper/gunslinger in the mix too. Whereas a shadow/sin or op/scoundrel can't use your stealth. Which I would think it would be hella unfair if they could. Huttball has been changed and gutted to fix some of the unfair advantages certain classes had over others. Etc, etc. Without spelunking further into it.

 

The players are the bigger issue, and will forever be the biggest problem. I could tell you about some of my most memorable matches and games. One of which was an Hour Novarre Coast I had. Totally off topic. I won't go into details about the players individually. It would ruffle so many feathers. Unlike the chips, it wouldn't be so addicting and delicious. A vast amount of people instead of addressing the issue and rising above it. They cast their lot aside and do as the previous poster suggested.

 

Won't spread my thoughts about skanks or heals in the current meta. And, as long as people choose to be cheap and exploit things it will ultimately lead back to Trixxie original point. ((I like how I brought everything back around full circle.))

 

-Booty Warrior

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((Firstly, I'm going to bounce from one topic to another. Don't get your knickers in a twist over it!))

 

MAN! I don't believe anyone knows how the matchmaking works anymore. And, at this point, I don't feel like it will get fixed. But Trixxie explained all my matches in a nutshell. That should be the /thread right there! The majority of my matches play out the same. Huttball for example. I'm the Full-time QB, RB, and WR on Offense. I just play safety, on defense. Every match I play I feel like I'm Anakin, and the other team is Obi-Wan with the high ground. And I embrace my inner Vader and go full dark side on Obi-wan. Most games it feels like I do get most of my limbs severed.

 

The enemy team always works together against "me." I don't blame them. But I'm determined to win in Huttball. I absolutely love it. I don't care if I'm against a premade or just a few friends having fun. I'm going full bacon in a skillet, full sizzle no ham. Not every game though. I might take a break behind a trashcan or a unit to cry and be depressed if my team is just "Deathmatching." But, I digress! With my grievances aside. The matchmaking is "Better" than what it has been recently. ((LET ME FINISH!!!!!)

 

It is not perfect, nor should it be! There has definitely been an improvement. I noticed a shift in the teams. in the majority of the games I play. Teams aren't as Healer/tanked stacked. Though you do run into it. It is not as frequent. Having said that!! Another person's experience may vary! ((I CAN'T HELP THAT!))

 

Matchmaking itself isn't the only issue. Have to throw in the classes, and the imbalances they bring. Like for example Sorc/sages with powers on Odessen. They can use all their abilities with no drawback. Could throw in sniper/gunslinger in the mix too. Whereas a shadow/sin or op/scoundrel can't use your stealth. Which I would think it would be hella unfair if they could. Huttball has been changed and gutted to fix some of the unfair advantages certain classes had over others. Etc, etc. Without spelunking further into it.

 

The players are the bigger issue, and will forever be the biggest problem. I could tell you about some of my most memorable matches and games. One of which was an Hour Novarre Coast I had. Totally off topic. I won't go into details about the players individually. It would ruffle so many feathers. Unlike the chips, it wouldn't be so addicting and delicious. A vast amount of people instead of addressing the issue and rising above it. They cast their lot aside and do as the previous poster suggested.

 

Won't spread my thoughts about skanks or heals in the current meta. And, as long as people choose to be cheap and exploit things it will ultimately lead back to Trixxie original point. ((I like how I brought everything back around full circle.))

 

-Booty Warrior

 

I actually found it better when it was first implemented. I feel like either player population has gone down or they've been doing tweaks without telling anyone (tweaks that made it worse).

 

I'm inclined to believe its that they made it worse, simply b/c I never used to get matched solo vs double premades.

Edited by RACATW
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They need to figure something out because the level of incompetence that I am seeing on my teams is astounding. People not understanding how to pass in any of the HBs, along with not knowing how to move the ball in general. People not being able to call out, not being able to understand how to focus a marked target and simply not knowing how to play.

 

I had 3 matches in a row, all losses mind you, where I literally did more dps on my merc than 5 of my teammates combined. I would say 6, but I don't count a healers dps.

 

After one match, a jug player and I figured that our team would have needed to be twice as large for the other dps to match our output.

 

At this point I, honestly, would rather have total and complete randomness in the formation of the teams. Whatever algorithm that they are using is screwed up majorly.

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You know the better the player you are and the more you queue solo, the more you see how imbalanced or broken the matchmaking is.

The gap between the bad, learning, mediocre, competent, good and excellent has increased significantly because there are less and less players.

What’s worse is the premades can be all mediocre players and they stick one good person who is much better than them on the other team and expect that one person to carry 7 people.

One person or even two cannot carry that many bad people on one team vs mediocre or semi competent premade on VC.

I don’t cary if you are a top 1% player, you can’t be everywhere on the map at once.

Something is off with this match making.

 

Double premade vs pugs :eek::rak_02::rak_03:

 

Solution, start your own 1 skank tank, 1 sorc healer, 2 dps premade

 

I am too lazy for that nowadays.

 

I feel the same way because all my friends left or you make new ones and they leave next week.

I want to just login and do some solo pvp without having to worry about being overly social. That way I can leave maps I hate, I can get off when I want or swap Alts if I’m bored.

 

I remember when there were enough good players around that I didn’t even need to be in a premade because we all knew what to do and it was like a de facto premade anyway.

Back then premades weren’t an issue and you could beat a lot of them with enough good people around. You didn’t have to rely on making a premade to be competitive.

Now it’s just a joke. It the other team with a premade has half a brain, they will win.

Edited by TrixxieTriss
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So we have "premades need to be banned" and "that mediocre premade needs me to carry them" in the same page now, eh.

 

The simple fact of the matter comes down to a population issue.

 

If there are not enough players queuing to seperate good and bad players or premades and not premades, the queue IS going to be unbalanced

 

No degree of matchmaking is going to change that sinple reality.

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Whatever algorithm that they are using is screwed up majorly.

 

I said this with in a week of them introducing matchmaking in regs. Everyone said I was crazy and they couldn’t tell the difference.

It’s ironic that this topic has once again raised its head as more good people leave and those left are expected to carry all the bads around.

Edited by TrixxieTriss
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So we have "premades need to be banned" and "that mediocre premade needs me to carry them" in the same page now, eh.

 

The simple fact of the matter comes down to a population issue.

 

If there are not enough players queuing to seperate good and bad players or premades and not premades, the queue IS going to be unbalanced

 

No degree of matchmaking is going to change that sinple reality.

 

How about putting premades against premades when they are in the queue and not making it first in and first out.

 

I’ve played enough to know there are usually multiple premades in the queue, but we still get premades vs pug matches most of the time. Why can’t the system see there are a few in the queue rotation and delay or promote a premade in the next match so they can both be together.

 

There is no reason that can’t happen, even with a low population. I would even argue it’s easier to do with a low population in the queue, especially when it drops to 4v4s.

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How about putting premades against premades when they are in the queue and not making it first in and first out.

 

I’ve played enough to know there are usually multiple premades in the queue, but we still get premades vs pug matches most of the time. Why can’t the system see there are a few in the queue rotation and delay or promote a premade in the next match so they can both be together.

 

There is no reason that can’t happen, even with a low population. I would even argue it’s easier to do with a low population in the queue, especially when it drops to 4v4s.

 

Oh now we're arguing that when the population is so low there are only 4v4 matches, the unbalancing factor is that there are too many premades?

 

Do i really need to go into the blatant logical gap?

 

If there aren't enough queuers to make a 16 player match, what is the probability that there are multiple unbalancing premades queuing?

Edited by KendraP
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Oh now we're arguing that when the population is so low there are only 4v4 matches, the unbalancing factor is that there are too many premades?

 

Do i really need to go into the blatant logical gap?

 

If there aren't enough queuers to make a 16 player match, what is the probability that there are multiple unbalancing premades queuing?

 

Babe, I often play in 4v4s because of my times zone. Over the last two weeks I started tracking matches because I wanted to see how much HB popped.

What really surprised me was how many 4v4 matches I was getting in a session. It works out that I’ve done about 40% 4v4 pvp over the 2 weeks.

 

The queue doesn’t auto revert to 4v4 when it gets to 16 players or even 24 players. It seems to drop to 4v4 with higher numbers. I’m not sure what they are and it would be awesome if Bioware would actually tell us. But I do know it’s higher than 24 players.

 

While they are popping there is usually 1-4 premades in the queue. I concede it’s impossble to match make with one premade in the queue. But what about when there are more? In those circumstances, it should never put a premade against a pug because 4v4 matches are usually relatively fast in regs (they hardly ever go to acid). So the pops are fast and matches faster.

 

Why can’t the queue system see there are 2,3 or 4 premades in the queue and matches.

Why can’t it just delay a pop for one premade or advance a pop for a premade so they are put together?

Why can’t it even put the best 4 players in the queue against the premade when there is only one. Why does it feel the need to spread us around?

 

I agree that it’s not perfect and I agree that matchmaking is a problem with a lower population, but there are things they can do to tweak it so it works better than it does.

I don’t agree they can’t do anything because of low population and I don’t think we should use that as an excuse for Bioware not trying to do as much as possible to make the system better.

Edited by TrixxieTriss
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This thread was not intended to be a ***** session about premade groups. I encourage people to group up with friends as much as they want or can. I simply don't like everyone left in swtor, so I don't group myself. I do think a team with 4 players grouped should automatically be paired with the four worst players in the queue. Odds on this will create a more fun balance more of the time.
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This thread was not intended to be a ***** session about premade groups. I encourage people to group up with friends as much as they want or can. I simply don't like everyone left in swtor, so I don't group myself. I do think a team with 4 players grouped should automatically be paired with the four worst players in the queue. Odds on this will create a more fun balance more of the time.

 

You can’t talk about matchmaking without including premades because they can have a big impact on the queue.

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Here is a prime example of how stupidly broken this matchmaking is,

 

Lowbie pvp. The queue only has 7 people in it,

 

There is a 3 man premade with a Sorc healer and 2 sins. All are over lvl 33.

 

Every match they are in gives them the extra person so that it’s 4v3.

Not only that, but if the 4th is a tank, it gives them the tank instead of the other teams..

 

Most of the time the other team had sub 20 lvl players.

 

Someone explain to me how the system is working when it gives a 3 man premade with a healer all over lvl 33 the extra player against non premade, with no healer or tank and all sub lvl 30.

 

This was not just one or two matches, this went on for 50mins. Every damn match. In the end I stopped queuing.

 

To really grind dirt into the wound, the premade thought it was so, so funny. When asked if they could disband the premade so the teams might balance out, they laughed and said “we like trolling lowbies”

 

Lowbies hardly pops as it is, but add the trolls and absolutely broken matchmaking system and it’s no wonder people won’t stay around and play it.

 

Either lowbies has match making or it doesn’t. If it does, then a 3 man premade should never have the 4th person if the other team only have 2 or 3. How is that even remotely fair.

If doesn’t have matchmaking, then tell us so we aren’t guessing why this keeps happening.

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The matchmaking I've seen for the last few months has certainly seemed to be "off" in many ways. As a better than average player who almost exclusively queues solo, I've found that if a group is in queue, I am almost never on the same team as a group, and almost always on a team that is far and away worse than the other team. Worse yet, if there are two groups of 4 queuing, if both groups are near my skill level (or at least, one group is not significantly worse than me), I end up on a team of all solo players against both groups.

 

I suppose this can be explained by the matchmaker averaging whatever skill quotient/silent ELO is being used across groups and then across teams. If the 4 mans are not significantly higher skill than any of the solo players, they can get grouped together regardless of how bad some of the solo players might be.

 

Either way, can I suggest that if a team is grouped, they get a 'boost' to their skill quotient/silent ELO? Like, a group of 2 has their average score doubled, group of 3 tripled, group of 4 quadrupled? That would force the matchmaker to balance the teams where perhaps the top 3 or 4 solo q players would be on the same team. I realize that sometimes, there's just not much to work with. Sometimes all the players in queue are really bad. But it's a start.

 

Regs have gotten quite a bit worse since 5.9. Since I don't play any other WZ format, it's pretty disheartening playing solo right now.

 

How do you know the skill level of your group / enemies, do you check if they play ranked and what rank they have?

 

I don't think you can easily balance groups vs. solo players by just using a static factor. Having a separate Team ELO for each player would probably work best. They definitely should make it so that two premades can never be matched vs 8 solo players. Ideally there should be separate queues for teams and solo players...

 

Unless you get matched against stacks constantly, the "bad" players should be distributed evenly over the teams. If the matchmaker "thinks" you are good enough to carry a bad team then maybe your hidden ranking is just too high? Even if the matchmaker is somehow broken, loosing should lead to a lower hidden rank for you and put you together with players better than you (making you the "bad" player of that group).

 

Looking at the queues available and that there is a team ranked and solo ranked queue, they probably know very well that their mixed queue system doesn't work reliably.

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Hey Mike, if you are reading this maybe you can talk with Eric and determine what you guys can tell us about the matchmaking algorithms? (for ranked as well as regs.)

 

Many people have debated how it works and this has lead to nothing but tons of theorycrafting and/or arguments on the forums so an official response would be nice.

Edited by Lhancelot
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Hey Mike, if you are reading this maybe you can talk with Eric and determine what you guys can tell us about the matchmaking algorithms? (for ranked as well as regs.)

 

Many people have debated how it works and this has lead to nothing but tons of theorycrafting and/or arguments on the forums so an official response would be nice.

 

Until they say otherwise, my working theory is that the algorithm takes 2-3 experienced players and puts them on teams with 5-6 inexperienced players and matches them against teams whose experience is far more equal across the board.

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Until they say otherwise, my working theory is that the algorithm takes 2-3 experienced players and puts them on teams with 5-6 inexperienced players and matches them against teams whose experience is far more equal across the board.

 

That’s usually my experience.

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