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What good is a jedi knight/sith warrior? Reimagine a class for patch 6.0.


varietasplus

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My greatest issue with the developer team has always been the lack of understanding class balance when it comes to PVP. They have been bound by almost identical damage output requirement owing to PVE content, hindering them from implementing the rock-paper-scissors system in PVP for dps classes. This results unbalanced classes and a missed opportunity to grant significantly different game experience/challenge, whereas the classes by definition (lore) would offer it.

 

I find it absurd that a sniper can face tank a melee character. If ranged has same damage output as melee, they should be glass cannon. Or give them mobility and/or decent AOE damage in exchange for single target damage. But they should not have all. Stealthers should also have a different, unique mechanism and role on a battlefield.

 

So, what good is a jedi knight/sith warrior in PVP? Or to be more precise: what benefit do these classes have compared to a ranged or stealther class?

 

Team ranked: "jugg first, easy win"

Solo ranked with 4 DPS: "PT/mara/jugg first, easy win"

Regular warzone: JK/SW can not defend turret on their own, can not stealth cap/hinder cap at start for long, sentinel/mara can not push/pull ball carriers or opportunist enemies at goal lines in HB (guardian/jugg only with high CD), can not self heal or exit battle either.

 

As it is now, both ranged and stealthers are far superior to JK/SW. Guardian/Jugg DPS have been a hindrance in group ranked previous season, currently in SR sentinel/mara is an easy (and first) kill in a 4 DPS setup that has enlarged their inferior survavibility. Actually Guardian/Jugg seems to be slightly better in SR environments.

 

I love these classes, but there is not a single battlefield where they excel. Transcendece/Predatation does not make up for everything else. Yes, they are very good damage dealers as long as they are not attacked. But they are performing poorly (or mediocre at best) in SR and can hardly contribute to objectives in warzones (safe Hutball leap).

 

It would be a great step towards diversity if the rock-paper-scissors system was implemented and every class would have to choose from single target damage output, AOE damage, defense, mobility and stealth via Utilities instead of getting those automatically from the Discipline itself.

 

From an RGP aspect, Guardian/Jugg DPS should be a feared single target enemy (duelist), whereas the sentinel/mara with two sabers should be a nightmare for stacked enemies. For example, the former should have a saber stance activated instantly without time limit in which their damage reduction increases dramatically in exchange for damage dealt (pseudo tank form). This would help Guardian/Jugg DPS to be a better defender of turrets/be a better ball carrier. As for sentinel/mara, all of their attacks should hit in a cone/area, they have two sabers for God's sake, so if you see them jump in the crowd, run for it unless you have guard/pocket healer.

 

As it is now, stealth and ranged classes (with multiple lives) are the last targets to kill in ranked and are far more usefull in regular warzones. Jedi knights/sith warriors should be granted unique features in the future that make them desirable for the whole team; the looks of a lightsaber is simply not enough.

Edited by varietasplus
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Maras are the second best class in pvp after mercs. Maras are also never targeted before juggs in ranked pvp, unless people know that the mara is very bad. These are facts.

 

Sure, as long as you have a guard and a healer, sentinel/mara is great. But apart from TR, that is usually not the case. Furthermore, having only one inferior advanced class (Guardian/Jugg) of all is a pure solace, especially if that shares same base class. Jedi knight/sith warrior needs to be reworked.

Edited by varietasplus
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  • 2 weeks later...

Sents take alot more focus and are exhausting to play until you develop serious muscle memory compared to a Juggernaut. Juggs are pretty easy to jump in and play where Sents have a few more layers to manage. I think this makes them seem less effective than they are.

 

Regardless I find Range classes face tanking Melee to be ridiculous and this is a result of class design. They built a range class specifically to be stationary....

 

Then when changing Merc/Mando they decided to give them a bit more mobility and then a lot of super effective DCDs... Both should have been given escapes and mobility and little to no heal/DCD boosts and this would not be an issue. That said I'm sure Mercs/Snipers would disagree.

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Regardless I find Range classes face tanking Melee to be ridiculous and this is a result of class design. They built a range class specifically to be stationary....

 

Then when changing Merc/Mando they decided to give them a bit more mobility and then a lot of super effective DCDs... Both should have been given escapes and mobility and little to no heal/DCD boosts and this would not be an issue. That said I'm sure Mercs/Snipers would disagree.

 

The problem is that there are so many gap closers these days that they kind of have to face tank. If I were to reimagine the classes I would remove a lot of gap closers (but I made a whole thread about that already that can be found here: http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=960225). I haven't really gotten into the arena since returning to the game last December, but I wonder how useful Force Push is these days. Force Push used to be a killer since it was the best tool to separate tanks from their guarded targets, but with so many gap closers these days how effective can it be?

 

The game, in my opinion, is more reflex-based today whereas in the past it leaned more towards the tactical, and that is probably more appealing to some players but personally I preferred the slower pace. Especially considering the engine the game is using. It can barely keep up with the players' actions.

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QFT.

 

Not sure what game OP is playing.

 

There's a certain mara/sent player on Star Forge who thinks dps sorcs are better than maras in pvp, and also claims that "everyone" agrees with him. It's both funny and sad, because he's desperate to believe that he's not playing the second best class in the game.

Edited by JediMasterAlex
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There's a certain mara/sent player on Star Forge who thinks dps sorcs are better than maras in pvp, and also claims that "everyone" agrees with him. It's both funny and sad, because he's desperate to believe that he's not playing the second best class in the game.

 

Please don't derail the thread with personalities. Also, one should refrain from evulating a class in a single environment (TR or having a pocket tank/healer) instead of taking all circumstances into consideration. There is no other class that is so dependent on others or so useless in warzones as Sentinel/Marauder, without providing any relevant benefit to the team. That is a fact.

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Please don't derail the thread with personalities. Also, one should refrain from evulating a class in a single environment (TR or having a pocket tank/healer) instead of taking all circumstances into consideration.

 

I didn't name the player. And no, I'm talking about solo ranked, even in all dps games. Maras are the second best pvp class after mercs without any tanks/healers, or even any teamwork at all.

 

There is no other class that is so dependent on others or so useless in warzones as Sentinel/Marauder, without providing any relevant benefit to the team. That is a fact.

 

I'm sorry to tell you that you are completely, utterly wrong. Again, the only class better than mara in pvp is merc (in team ranked, maras are arguably better). Probably the biggest issue here is that you don't realize that you can stealth out and heal repeatedly on a mara.

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I'm sorry to tell you that you are completely, utterly wrong. Again, the only class better than mara in pvp is merc (in team ranked, maras are arguably better). Probably the biggest issue here is that you don't realize that you can stealth out and heal repeatedly on a mara.

^QFT

Mara's are disgusting and i would love to have a small fraction of the damage they do on my sin.

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Please don't derail the thread with personalities. Also, one should refrain from evulating a class in a single environment (TR or having a pocket tank/healer) instead of taking all circumstances into consideration. There is no other class that is so dependent on others or so useless in warzones as Sentinel/Marauder, without providing any relevant benefit to the team. That is a fact.

 

Fury Mara is so good that it's transcended FOTMonth to Flavor of the Meta. Are you saying there no good Fury Maras on DM? (I assume you are on DM since you say TR instead of Granked). As for warzones, I'm happy to follow a good fury mara's target of target because the enemy will die without proper peels.

 

 

PS- You should take a quick look at yolos and granked leaderboards.

Edited by Rion_Starkiller
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I'm sorry to tell you that you are completely, utterly wrong. Again, the only class better than mara in pvp is merc (in team ranked, maras are arguably better). Probably the biggest issue here is that you don't realize that you can stealth out and heal repeatedly on a mara.

 

As for Merc/Mando, no argument there. I did not intend to imply I am not satisfied with the damage output, I find both Combat and Focus quite viable in SR. I am also aware of the fact I can escape being globalled every 45 second. If I wasn't, I would die in an instant in every arena with 4 dps, for they usually come for me first (unless there is a PT around :)).

 

I don't complain about TR either. But as for the "healing repeatedly on mara", I don't really follow you. You probably don't refer to the saber ward related utility which is on 3 minute CD, so I am left with the guess you mean the Watchmen discipline. Sure that can provide decent self-heal and damage at the same time, but that also requires a brainless enemy team stacking up and/or not globalling you the very moment they see you/you come out of Force Camouflage.

 

It would also not solve the problem of the other disciplines or the usefulness in warzones (completing objectives, not number crunching). But there is always room from improvement, I would be very happy to hear if there is any other way for a sentinel/mara to heal themselves. Thank you in advance for the good advice.

Edited by varietasplus
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As for Merc/Mando, no argument there. I did not intend to imply I am not satisfied with the damage output, I find both Combat and Focus quite viable in SR. I am also aware of the fact I can escape being globalled every 45 second. If I wasn't, I would die in an instant in every arena with 4 dps, for they usually come for me first (unless there is a PT around :)).

 

I don't complain about TR either. But as for the "healing repeatedly on mara", I don't really follow you. You probably don't refer to the saber ward related utility which is on 3 minute CD, so I am left with the guess you mean the Watchmen discipline. Sure that can provide decent self-heal and damage at the same time, but that also requires a brainless enemy team stacking up and/or not globalling you the very moment they see you/you come out of Force Camouflage.

 

It would also not solve the problem of the other disciplines or the usefulness in warzones (completing objectives, not number crunching). But there is always room from improvement, I would be very happy to hear if there is any other way for a sentinel/mara to heal themselves. Thank you in advance for the good advice.

 

When I said "stealth out and heal," that's one thing. You use force camo and then run to the other side of the map, wait until you're out of combat, and then heal to full with whatever your out-of-combat regen ability is. You can do this repeatedly throughout a match. If maras didn't have the ability to do that, then you would be right, but good maras stealth out and heal constantly (in solos at least).

Edited by JediMasterAlex
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When I said "stealth out and heal," that's one thing. You use force camo and then run to the other side of the map, wait until you're out of combat, and then heal to full with whatever your out-of-combat regen ability is. You can do this repeatedly throughout a match. If maras didn't have the ability to do that, then you would be right, but good maras stealth out and heal constantly (in solos at least).

 

Hold on for a sec, in warzones, it takes at least 10 seconds to get out of combat phase, are you saying it is less in SR? With low health, you need approximately 8 seconds to heal to full, plus you need to rejoin combat. That adds up to approximately 25-30 seconds. In a 4 DPS vs 4 DPS scenario, that seems like eternity, basicly your team has to fight 3 vs 4 for half a minute. That is not in favour of winning. However, I will put your suggestion to a test, thank you.

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Hold on for a sec, in warzones, it takes at least 10 seconds to get out of combat phase, are you saying it is less in SR? With low health, you need approximately 8 seconds to heal to full, plus you need to rejoin combat. That adds up to approximately 25-30 seconds. In a 4 DPS vs 4 DPS scenario, that seems like eternity, basicly your team has to fight 3 vs 4 for half a minute. That is not in favour of winning. However, I will put your suggestion to a test, thank you.

 

Yes, 30 seconds is a long time to be out of combat, but you only use it when you've already used all of your other dcds and the choice is between stealthing out to heal to full or death. And if you were their focus target, once you stealth out they will have to turn onto a fresh target, who will have his own dcds to survive long enough until you return to combat.

 

Also, needless to say that fury maras have essentially the best burst and sustained damage, so even if your uptime is periodically interrupted, maras can make great use of small windows of combat, unlike say dps sorcs.

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You should be out of combat quicker as long as 1. you don't have any of your dots running on anyone (should be easy), 2. you take the cleanse utility on your force camo to purge any dots on you, and 3. you don't have any active hots from a healer on you.

 

But that's pretty hard to do when you're at 5% health and force camo is your "oh sh#&" button.

Edited by Rion_Starkiller
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