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Discussion Topic: Game Update 5.4 and the Next Roadmap

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > General Discussion
Discussion Topic: Game Update 5.4 and the Next Roadmap
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DarthSpuds's Avatar


DarthSpuds
07.23.2017 , 03:34 AM | #251
Quote: Originally Posted by KeithKanneg View Post
Thanks for all the feedback. I'll take up a number of the points you raised with the team, including the 242 for Master Mode on Umbara. You also asked about Legacy Currencies, additional class balancing, Strongholds, and more, so I'll update the Roadmap to include many of those items, along with any additional insight, where possible.

There's a lot of criticism in this thread, a lot of good ideas, some confusion, a bunch of frustration. and a ton of passion about SWTOR. I've also read that we don't play the game, have no understanding of MMOs, and most of decisions are the opposite of smart. I get it and I think most of you know realize we're not going to please everyone, and no matter how many changes we make, someone is going to be unhappy and call us out.

I know we'll continue to improve the game, we'll continue to refine every area, we'll add new content regularly for a wide variety of different play styles - some will get strongholds, some will get PvP, GSF, Operation Bosses, New Flashpoints, Story, and more. I also know we'll make mistakes along the way, and you'll be able to help us course correct, yet I still want the Dev Team to take chances, to push themselves and strive to be better and provide a lot of fun for all of us who play this game.

I've also read some of you are tossing in the towel and are leaving us. That obviously saddens me as the game is better when everyone works together. I have valued your input, have tried to understand your frustration while working with the team to get your concerns addressed. Not everything is as it seems, but I respect your decision and look to earn your business again in the near future.

Hope everyone is taking full advantage of the bonus CXP week. Have a great weekend.

Keith---
Keith.

I get that you are passionate about the game, and it is genuinely a great thing to see that. I am (used to be) passionate about the game too - even when I felt a little burned out and played other games I left my Sub running because it was worth it to me to do so, and I knew - for a fact - that I would be coming back.

Let me explain why I specifically unsubbed, and maybe you can take that on board and use it somehow to prevent others taking the same route I have taken. You are right that the game is better when everyone works together, but there's still no evidence that is happening. You posted up the first round of class balance changes, asked for our comments on it, and then implemented it 99% exactly how you originally posted them - despite our collective feedback pointing out some pretty major issues with the changes as they were listed.

You claimed Sage/Sorc Healers needed a nerf - but most of the changes were to baseline skills, further nerfing TK Sage / Lighning Sorc, by far the worst DPS specs out there BEFORE those nerfs. The guild I am in are pretty relaxed about most things, and we were engaged in the process of honing player skill and gearing up via MM FPs to get enough of us ready to step up to OPs. Even before the Sage/Sorc nerfs I was made aware that as a TK Sage I was already significantly underperforming, because TK Sage was at the very bottom of the pile (by some considerable margin) when it came to DPS output. Heck even my Defence Guardian was out DPSing my TK Sage in some situations.

So why touch baseline skills at all? Sage Healer was, apparently, the problem. So fix healing. Don't nerf baseline skills so bad that you make the very worst DPS Spec in the game even worse, just to "balance" healing. And let's say that the only way to balance Sage/Sorc healing was to touch baseline skill that affect all three skill trees. Why on earth would you do that BEFORE buffing the worst performing DPS Spec?

Manaan: I have wanted a Manaan SH ever since SH were first announced. I fell in love with the aesthetic and atmosphere of Manaan way back in KotOR. I honestly can not tell you how excited I was to hear that we would be getting a Manaan SH. I was working patch day, so wasn't able to jump straight in and unlock my Manaan SH. Boy am I glad of that now. I did manage to sneak a peek at a few early youtube vids of Manaan and what I saw was, genuinely, shocking. Appalling room layouts, with little to no functionality made ten times worse by what I can only assume was a Summer Intern being given reign to just throw any old hook anywhere they felt like and call it done. Why is the Starship Hook on an area you a) can't actually access and b) can barely see to place anything on it anyway? Where was the QA check on this? Who green lit it for going live?

CXP Grind: Why is Command Rank Legacy Wide yet? Why are UC only available to PvPers, making it even more of a grind for PvEers? Especially as PvPer's get rewarded just for turning up, in PvE you actually have to win to get the payoff.

Communication: Let's be honest is still isn't happening in any meaningful way. Yes you, Eric and Charles and others are more active in posting - and that is appreciated. But a drive-by opening post in a thread that is then completely ignored is NOT communication. In fact in some ways it is worse no than when Ben Irving was in charge. We knew we weren't going to get any meaningful communication. Now we are being told we are getting it, even though we ain't. Asking for our feedback and then a) not responding to it at all, and b) ignoring it and doing what you always planned to do anyway is NOT communication, it is NOT "working together", please stop pretending it is.

The day I read that Ben Irving was no longer Lead Producer I took out a 60 day sub. 10 days from the end of that sub period I was reasonably confident that the ship was turning, and I took out a three month sub. It had just renewed for the first time a few days before Manaan SH was patched in. I haven't even logged in since patch day. I was that disappointed by the Manaan SH and disheartened by the abysmal attempt at "class balance" that nerfed the worst performing spec in the game even more, and the insulting new era of "faux communication".

I genuinely hope you and the team manage to turn this ship around. I love this game, I want it to flourish and to reach the obvious potential that is there. But the evidence suggests you are still making the same old mistakes over and over again, and trying to hide them behind a veneer of smoke and mirrors and that is isn't going to achieve this game's full potential, in fact it will ruin it even further.

IMO this game stopped being Star Wars with KotFE, it got even worse with KotET, and Iokath shows no sign of abandoning the rubbish that replaced Star Wars. Make this game feel like Star Wars again and players will love you for it. Players who left - in their thousands - through FE/ET and the debacle that was the CXP launch will start to come back. My Sub expires in September. I'll keep dropping by and read the forums, make a few comments. And if I see that things have improved from my point of view before that expiry date I'll log in and have a try, and maybe if things have improved greatly I'll resub. My fear, and my guess is, that I'll end up uninstalling and just not come back at all. I have given this game more second chances than any other simply because it is Star Wars - but that leeway has been abused by Bioware time and time again; and I am tired of it.

All The Best
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Ylliarus's Avatar


Ylliarus
07.23.2017 , 03:37 AM | #252
Quote: Originally Posted by KeithKanneg View Post
Thanks for all the feedback. I'll take up a number of the points you raised with the team, including the 242 for Master Mode on Umbara. You also asked about Legacy Currencies, additional class balancing, Strongholds, and more, so I'll update the Roadmap to include many of those items, along with any additional insight, where possible.

There's a lot of criticism in this thread, a lot of good ideas, some confusion, a bunch of frustration. and a ton of passion about SWTOR. I've also read that we don't play the game, have no understanding of MMOs, and most of decisions are the opposite of smart. I get it and I think most of you know realize we're not going to please everyone, and no matter how many changes we make, someone is going to be unhappy and call us out.

I know we'll continue to improve the game, we'll continue to refine every area, we'll add new content regularly for a wide variety of different play styles - some will get strongholds, some will get PvP, GSF, Operation Bosses, New Flashpoints, Story, and more. I also know we'll make mistakes along the way, and you'll be able to help us course correct, yet I still want the Dev Team to take chances, to push themselves and strive to be better and provide a lot of fun for all of us who play this game.

I've also read some of you are tossing in the towel and are leaving us. That obviously saddens me as the game is better when everyone works together. I have valued your input, have tried to understand your frustration while working with the team to get your concerns addressed. Not everything is as it seems, but I respect your decision and look to earn your business again in the near future.

Hope everyone is taking full advantage of the bonus CXP week. Have a great weekend.

Keith---
Thank you Keith for this wonderful post. It saddens me to read that people still are calling you out despite all you do for SWTOR and the players. Of course you will never please all the players, but it is for the players that aren't please to accept that the game does not specifically cater to them, instead, the game is trying to be great for a large group of people. It's their responsibility to accept the fact that not all they suggest or want is going to make it into the actual game. If that is enough reason for them to quit, then I think that is a mistake as the game is so much more than individual suggestions, wants and ideas of players. SWTOR is, was and will be my favourite game and I vow to stay here until the day comes the servers will be shut down for good (which I hope is very, very far in the future). There are so many aspects of the game that I can never get enough of it, so quitting because this or that isn't added is a pity, because while you may not see your wants and desires in the game you still have such an epic amount of other content.

So Keith and the Devs, look to the players, the majority of the playersbase who stick with the game. Because there are so many loyal and devoted players who are just as passionate about the game as you are. So thank you for the amazing work you do. There will always be embittered players who will repeat over and over "the devs don't care about us", "the devs don't listen to us", "the devs don't play the game" but I have simply stopped taking note of these people because it's always the same people telling the same untruths.

You do care about us, you do listen to us, you do play the game. That is the truth, the sole and utter truth.
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DarthSpuds's Avatar


DarthSpuds
07.23.2017 , 03:43 AM | #253
Quote: Originally Posted by Ylliarus View Post
So Keith and the Devs, look to the players, the majority of the playersbase who stick with the game.
What majority?

Do you even recall how many Server this game had at launch day, and how many more they had to open over the following weeks. There were 120+ Servers for North America and around 100 Servers for Europe.

How many are there now?

The "majority" of players left already.

All The Best
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ottffsse's Avatar


ottffsse
07.23.2017 , 04:01 AM | #254
Thank you for the update Keith!

I think overall the game is going in a great direction as of the last 3 months really.

It is just certain things really do break the game in terms of balance since 5.0 and I am sure you guys have heard it a thousand times -merc and sniper dcds, but perticularely merc dcd overtuned, pt/sorc undertuned etc, but I do agree that balancing classes and also their defenses and utilities should be a careful and deliberate process that cannot be just done on a whim quickly, otherwise one can just exacerbate the problem of class imbalance to begin with.

Icykill_'s Avatar


Icykill_
07.23.2017 , 04:45 AM | #255
Quote: Originally Posted by KeithKanneg View Post
Thanks for all the feedback. I'll take up a number of the points you raised with the team, including the 242 for Master Mode on Umbara. You also asked about Legacy Currencies, additional class balancing, Strongholds, and more, so I'll update the Roadmap to include many of those items, along with any additional insight, where possible.

There's a lot of criticism in this thread, a lot of good ideas, some confusion, a bunch of frustration. and a ton of passion about SWTOR. I've also read that we don't play the game, have no understanding of MMOs, and most of decisions are the opposite of smart. I get it and I think most of you know realize we're not going to please everyone, and no matter how many changes we make, someone is going to be unhappy and call us out.

I know we'll continue to improve the game, we'll continue to refine every area, we'll add new content regularly for a wide variety of different play styles - some will get strongholds, some will get PvP, GSF, Operation Bosses, New Flashpoints, Story, and more. I also know we'll make mistakes along the way, and you'll be able to help us course correct, yet I still want the Dev Team to take chances, to push themselves and strive to be better and provide a lot of fun for all of us who play this game.

I've also read some of you are tossing in the towel and are leaving us. That obviously saddens me as the game is better when everyone works together. I have valued your input, have tried to understand your frustration while working with the team to get your concerns addressed. Not everything is as it seems, but I respect your decision and look to earn your business again in the near future.

Hope everyone is taking full advantage of the bonus CXP week. Have a great weekend.

Keith---
I'm surprised by the honesty in this post. It's good to see. I just hope it leads to something positive in the further and I may return.
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Khiriath's Avatar


Khiriath
07.23.2017 , 05:00 AM | #256
Quote: Originally Posted by nogoodtomedead View Post
Umbara should be cool. Keith, remember, if you touch merc DCDs, gonna need some of our DPS back to compensate.
Here we go. I've giving this another swing Keith:

Here are the max DPS output(assuming you don't win the RNG lottery with crit but what could be on average expected) of all classes post 5.2. Note it hasn't been adjusted down yet for the various nerfs:
https://torcommunity.com/guides/misc...class-rankings

Here some helpful people have done the math to figure out the DPS checks for every NiM boss:
http://yourcompanion.clanwebsite.com...are-checks-jpq

Note that say NiM Styrak requires over 9k sustained DPS. That is with the various mechanics that reduce your DPS like the Kell Dragon spin. Even before the nerfs there were several classes that could only get over 9k DPS in full 248 gear and with a perfect rotation devoid of human error on a dummy without limiting mechanics.

For those classes to be able to clear content they will realistically need full 248 gear and a very expensive consumable known as Crystal of Nightmare Fury.

So yes there is actual and real need. For those of us who enjoy progression raiding and attempting harder endgame content with our friends this gear grind to be able to realistically play portions of the game is frustrating in the extreme.

I would like to point out that the recommended gear for NiM is 236, but let's be honest most classes can't put out the necessary DPS in 236.

I get that people playing PvP don't want to die to fast as that takes away enjoyment from the game. However, people playing PvE want to be able to clear PvE content on their favorite class. Why does one have to suffer for the other? Why are classes being nerfed out of NiM viability for the sake of PvP? Why do PvE bosses have some ridiculously high DPS checks that simply aren't achievable by many classes, and very few classes in the recommended gear?

Yes good players will still be good no matter gear. Will they be good enough to clear conent? Well the top ten Lightening sorcs can potentially put out enough dps that with game mechanics they could still clear NiM Styrak in 248 gear:
http://parsely.io/parser/leaderboard...00/all/live/1/

No one in the madness category can do so, which is really bad:
http://parsely.io/parser/leaderboard...00/all/live/1/

I'm guessing I could go through all the classes listed shallow end of the DPS pool here
https://torcommunity.com/guides/misc...class-rankings
and find the same result. There may be some 1%ers in their various classes that can hit the necessary numbers. What about the other 99% of paying players though? To answer any questions about why I continue to pay to play the game, that is simple, over five years of playing I have developed some real friendships in game, and I still enjoy doing stuff with those friends. Enough so to justify the relatively minimal expense of the sub. However, as more of those friends which started as virtual friends and many of whom have become IRL friends, gradually grows frustrated and leaves, I will admit that my incentive to continue to pay said sub is decreasing.

I write these posts because I don't want to leave game, and don't want my friends to leave game. I want BW to realize that they have a broken system where some classes, some very popular classes, simply are not viable for endgame content and work to fix that.

I'm not asking for buffs, or even my own favorite classes, PT and Guardian for those who wonder, to be boosted up to be the highest parsing classes. I simply want them to balance PvE so that all classes are viable for all content at the recommended gear ratings. I shouldn't have to have two tiers above recommended rating to simply be viable in certain content. I certainly shouldn't be able to be 2 tiers above recommended rating and not be viable for certain content.

For me the drop rate of tier 4 gear from crates is only part of a bigger problem. That balance in this game simply doesn't exist in any rational form. PvE is a total mess and only gettig worse with the "balancing" nerfs that instead of balancing things only made greater disparities and sunk more classes into the not viable for all content category. PvP is also a mess, so playing that to get 242 and 248 gear is frustrating at best, especiall with the drop rates.

Ideally here is what I would like to see happen that I think would be the best for both PvE and PvP:
1) Nerf ops bosses so that they can be realistically cleared by all classes in the recommended gear. Taking into account actual DPS drop offs resulting from mechanics.

2) Make unassembled components act like WZ coms did in 4.0. Namely a base number gained for participation, more for a win, and additional ones earned for WZ medals gained. There is no reason that someone who is actually trying and earns 20 medals should get the same amount as the guy who goes AFK in stealth in a corner somewhere. Nevermind when the AFKer says he'll guard objective, but allows it to be captured because he really just wants the WZ to end earlier. Also make them legacy transferrable, just as WZ coms were.

3) Actually balance the classes and as much as possible do away with the FOTM class. Make that balance not just about theoretical DPS output but what actually happens in game mechanics.

4) Return to the 1.0&2.0 system of abilities having different PvE and PvP characteristics so that PvE and PvP can be balanced separately once again.

That is my personal wish list(and recommendations). To be honest even if BW were to do those things, I don't think or expect that they would get it right straight away, but the attempt with necessary tweaks over time to get it right(not ignoring problems for 6+ mos) would make me and I think a lot of other people very happy campers
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Sertar's Avatar


Sertar
07.23.2017 , 05:01 AM | #257
Quote: Originally Posted by KeithKanneg View Post
We are quite a few weeks away from publishing the next 90 day update for our SWTOR Roadmap.
Quote: Originally Posted by KeithKanneg View Post
You also asked about [...] additional class balancing [...] so I'll update the Roadmap to include many of those items, along with any additional insight, where possible.
So this means... class changes to Operative and Marauder in 5.4. Any additional class balance will not happen before the Road Map Release, which is "quite a few weeks away". So those can be expected for.. September? October?

And no, I'm not talking about the never ending whining of all the Sorc DPS about their low dummy parses. I'm talking about PvP and the balance issues there relate to defensive cooldowns and utilities. Especially utilities are what makes Marauder, Sniper and Merc outperform all dps classes in solo ranked, it's even utilities that have almost no impact on PvE so it's not hard to fix those.

But none of them have been addressed since 5.0 which happened almost 8 months ago. With Season 8 ending with 5.4 it will be even longer than Season 7 making it the longest season ever. One season with the length of almost three "reasonable seasons" and absolutely no impactful balance changes all the way. Oh.. right: Season 9 will start without impactful changes as well.

There are also bugs to fix like commando net ignoring the fact that you just dodged it (merc net doesn't, it is dodged as intended) and getting kicked by certain classes through roll or force shroud. Those bugs are happening since 5.0 without any confirmation that you know about them or work on them. And I almost forgot: Leaderboards haven't been updated for 2 months now!

I know, PvP is a niche in SWTOR and there is a lot of work to do all over the game.
But please.. Eric or Keith.. just say it one time: We haven't done anything for PvP since 5.0!

Something like that would tell us where we're at and what we can expect. But instead you throw some fog and raise expectations to fall even harder and then even lie to us and yourself but posting something like this:
Quote: Originally Posted by EricMusco View Post
Fear not, you are not forgotten. The next time we post something it will contain screenshots of the rewards, tier breakdowns, everything.
I love this game, I love many things in this game and I'm willing to help improving it by giving feedback. When it comes to Season 8 though.. can't you just admit that you messed it up from the very beginning to the very end?

Thanks for reading this.

Deewe's Avatar


Deewe
07.23.2017 , 06:17 AM | #258
Quote: Originally Posted by KeithKanneg View Post
Thanks for all the feedback.
**snip**

I also know we'll make mistakes along the way, and you'll be able to help us course correct, yet I still want the Dev Team to take chances, to push themselves and strive to be better and provide a lot of fun for all of us who play this game.

I've also read some of you are tossing in the towel and are leaving us. That obviously saddens me as the game is better when everyone works together. I have valued your input, have tried to understand your frustration while working with the team to get your concerns addressed. Not everything is as it seems, but I respect your decision and look to earn your business again in the near future.

Hope everyone is taking full advantage of the bonus CXP week. Have a great weekend.

Keith---
Hello Keith,

I'd say DarthSpuds post couple lines above draws a good picture of how you guy are doing versus what many are expecting.

In regards of the class balance while it's a touchy subject, the only way to mitigate the perception is to clearly state your goals with hard data and eventually throw in some % of how the players are performing with each specs. Until then we will still keep feeling you are not addressing the real issues. Personally I still feel that since launch BioWare keeps rotating the FOTM though different classes to keep the hardcores occupied grinding and gearing those classes.

In regards of PvP you guys have to somehow separate PvE and PvP skills. Hurting PvE because of PvP balance isn't a solution and it's giving a wrong message to many of your players, especially the ones that doesn't PvP at all. Also there still 2 majors issues with PVP: the STUNS fest and the fact gear has such an impact on the outcome of a fight.

Until some time ago playing PvE content was fun and rewarding because we had a chance to get decent gear (stats or look wise) and decorations, from any mob. Since then, and especially the CXP, it's not fun anymore to kill stuff. Blue or purple items being replaced by companions gifts! Also CXP, isn't motivating players to rotate through their alts, making the game more repetitive and so boring.

In terms of quality, Manaan feels indeed like a half baked product that goes along the quality of he release of the last 2 companions and the new 1st boss operation. People wanted them for so long and yet got quite rushed out products.
Also I truly don't get why the gear preview window isn't in the top 3 issues. Makes no sense at all and yet it gives a really bad image of BioWare studio.

Communication wise, while it drastically improved, as players, we don't really see any impact of our feedback on the game development.

Finally in regards of what we had lately and what we know in terms of upcoming content you don't reassure us. Feel like you just have the budget to barely maintain the game alive. Don't foresee any major (and needed) improvement coming up at all.

(edit) And well instead of your last sentence I would much rather have had:
Quote: Originally Posted by KeithKanneg View Post
Hope everyone is taking full advantage of the now legacy wide CXP ranks.
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t-darko's Avatar


t-darko
07.23.2017 , 06:36 AM | #259
I sense a lot of frustration in that last reply aswell Keith, I would at this point urge you not to take all the negativity personally, work on and do your thing.
As I'm currently on vacation in my part of the world I've noticed that I'm a late arrival in the thread, so I just pop a quick question;
- Are we again gating Story content behind group content?

/cheers

MooseMcKenna's Avatar


MooseMcKenna
07.23.2017 , 07:37 AM | #260
Quick idea how I would implement legacy credits.
The obvious subs would have no issues.



Preferred have a cap right now of 350k.
Keep their cap that way with in place that for each toon they have their legacy cap will increase by 350k with a max of 3,500,000. So having 11 toons will still only be capped at 3,500,000.

Free To Play would be the same thing maxing out at 2,500,000.

The whole idea has been thrown out for some time on increasing preferred and free to play on increasing their cap. What that would mean to us that subs is the possible better sales on gtn but even then it is no guarantee.