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[SPOILERS] A Theory On Rey And The Force

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > STAR WARS Discussion
[SPOILERS] A Theory On Rey And The Force

Ylliarus's Avatar


Ylliarus
01.05.2018 , 09:39 AM | #1
Please be warned that there will be spoilers to The Last Jedi in this thread and if you haven't seen the movie yet but still plan to do, then please, do not read any further.


I have seen people express the criticism that Rey without explanation was strong in the Force and was able to lift rocks with seemingly little to no training. I personally heavily disagree that there is no explanation as to where her power comes from and I'd like to share my views on the matter to hopefully clarify this point of criticism at Star Wars The Last Jedi.

To begin, I personally believe people have a misconception of what the Force in the Star Wars universe is and how it works. People often see the Force to be two sides of a whole, the Light and the Dark. When viewed faction-wise like in Star Wars The Old Republic, the original trilogy, the prequels or the newest sequels, this would be correct from a certain point of view. We have the Republic and Jedi, followers of the Light, battling the Empire and the Sith, followers of the Dark, in SWTOR. In the original movies it's the Rebel Alliance vs the Galactic Empire. In the Prequels, Republic vs Separatists. In the newest sequels, Resistance vs First Order. I am not surprised that people therefore see the Force as having two sides as well because the initial view would indeed say it is so. However, this view is actually wrong. The Force is a cosmic divine entity that binds all life together, it connects and holds the entire galaxy in Star Wars in one piece. It is present within everyone and everything, some being more attuned to it than others, those people being able to draw upon the Force and use it like the Jedi did. Before I continue, it is important to note that this is the state of the Force as it is supposed to be, the Force being used selflessly, like the Jedi did. In this way, there is balance.

Then we enter the different state of the Force, the unnatural one, where those who were able to use the Force stopped using it selflessly and instead start using the Force selfishly. That, using the Force for your own gain through the use of selfish emotions, is what the Dark Side is. The Dark Side is referenced to be a different aspect of the Force, but it in fact is a corrupted version of it, corrupted by being selfish and using selfish emotions. It is why those who use the Dark Side so often seem to be addicted to the Dark Side, corrupted and slowly being destroyed by it. Using the corrupted version of the Force is like using a drug, which slowly is killing you and makes you more addicted to it the more you use it. Yet it is important to understand that this is not a natural part of the Force, it is rather unnatural and a perversion of it.

This brings us to the point of balance and the true meaning of it. As Luke said in the Last Jedi, the Force didn't belong to the Jedi Order. Instead it belongs to everyone and everything in the universe, binding and connecting it all. It is why the number of Jedi in the galaxy is of no consequence in the Star Wars universe, it merely is a representation of the Force within the galaxy. However, the number of people that do use the Dark Side of the Force is of the utmost importance. Why? Because those who use the Force selfishly and corrupt it are the ones creating the imbalance in the Force itself, because they pervert and corrupt its true state and form. Thus whenever someone arises that starts using the Force selfishly, thus in other terms, starts using the Dark Side of the Force, it is the natural response of the Force to correct this and restore balance. In this case, balance doesn't mean an equal amount of Light Side users and Dark Side users as people often mistakenly claim, but instead it means the total eradication of all those who use the Dark Side of the Force.

And how does the Force do this? Because it permeates everything and everyone, the Force manipulates the entire galaxy to correct this imbalance, depending on the scale of the imbalance. In the case of one Jedi who turned to the Dark Side, the response of the Force will be smaller. In the case of an entire faction arising led by or consisting of Dark Side users, the Force will manipulate the entire galaxy into a devastating war if need be, just to eradicate the imbalance that was created. This is the very reason why there is constant warfare in the Star Wars universe, it is why the Light and the Dark are constantly at war with one another. It is the natural instinct of the Light Side, meaning the state of the Force as it is supposed to be, to destroy the Dark Side, meaning those who use the Force selfishly and through it, corrupt it.

This is perfectly explained by Kreia in Knights of the Old Republic II:
Quote:
"It is said that the Force has a will, it has a destiny for us all. I wield it, but it uses us all, and that is abhorrent to me. Because I hate the Force. I hate that it seems to have a will, that it would control us to achieve some measure of balance, when countless lives are lost." - Darth Traya
Let us return to the examples I used to depict why people mistakenly view the Force as having two sides and implement what I just wrote in a simplified manner for now, for the ease of explaining it. In Star Wars The Old Republic the Republic backed by the Jedi and Empire led by the Sith are at war with one another because the Force demands that the Republic and the Jedi, followers of the Force in the state it's supposed to be in (the Light Side), destroy the Empire and the Sith who have corrupted and perverted it. In the original movies the Rebellion, followers of the Light, rise up against the Galactic Empire, who are led by two followers of the Dark Side, because the Force demands that balance is restored. In the prequels, even though we know that Palpatine was the orchestrator of the Clone Wars, the Force nonetheless could be seen as making countermoves through Padme, Bail Organa, Mon Mothma, the Petition of 2000 and so on as manipulating the galaxy to rise up against the darkness that Palpatine was casting upon it and the Force. In the newest sequels its the Resistance that is being manipulated by the Force to rise up against the First Order which is led by Snoke up until the Last Jedi and subsequently Kylo Ren, both Dark Side users perverting the Force by using it selfishly.

The wars in Star Wars and the conflicts between the Light and Dark almost seem cyclical and they actually are confirmed to be cyclical by the Visual Dictionary for Star Wars The Last Jedi in Luke's chapter:
Quote:
"Skywalker's studies revealed the cyclical nature of the struggle between light and dark, and the massive toll the galaxy pays with each cycle." - The Last Jedi Visual Dictionary
It is important to note however that the Force isn't manipulating for example the Republic and Jedi to battle against the entire Sith Empire, but rather, it manipulates everyone and everything in as well the Republic and Jedi as the Sith Empire to end those who use the Dark Side, which in this incarnation of the conflict happen to be the Sith, the Lords of the Sith, the Darths, the Lords of the Dark Council and the Sith Emperor himself. The Force isn't seeking to remove the Sith Empire itself, but those that use the Dark Side and thus in other words are corrupting the Force. This is important to understand, because it shows that the factions in Star Wars never mattered, or at least, in the eyes of the Force. It is why for example the entire spacebattle going on in Return of the Jedi is less significant than the battle that is going inside the Death Star II between Vader, Luke and the Emperor, while logically speaking the spacebattle should have been more significant. The Rebellion is a means to an end to the Force in that moment, where they were manipulated to bring about the confrontation between Luke and Vader, subsequently Emperor Palplatine torturing Luke which brings back Vader to the Light, which has as consequence that the Emperor is destroyed and balance returns. The entire galaxy was manipulated by the Force, the entire Galactic Civil War orchestrated by it, just to let that moment aboard the Death Star II where Vader was redeemed happen. It explains perfectly why Kreia despised the Force and why she sought to end it. Because the Force would manipulate everyone and everything in whatever way was necessary to bring about the destruction of those who used the Dark Side so that balance could be returned, balance meaning the complete lack of Dark Side users.

And this brings us to the point why Rey was as strong in the Force as she was in the Last Jedi. The Force itself is the answer and its tendency to manipulate everyone and everything to end those who use the Force selfishly and thus corrupt it. Rey was as strong in the Force as she was because the Force itself manipulated the midi-chlorians and her attunement to the Force to be as strong as she needed to be in order to be on par with Kylo Ren and Snoke, to be in turn capable of ending them and their corruption of the Force.

This is even confirmed in the movie by Snoke himself when he greets Rey when she is brought before him in his throneroom aboard the Supremacy:
Quote:
"Darkness rises and Light to meet it. [...] I warned my young apprentice that as he grew stronger, his equal in the Light would rise." - Snoke in the Last Jedi
Kreia's words on the Force show a deeper truth about it and how it works in the Star Wars universe. To reiterate, Kreia stated:
Quote:
"I hate that it seems to have a will, that it would control us to achieve some measure of balance, when countless lives are lost." - Kreia in KOTOR II
The part "that it would control us to achieve some measure of balance" is the most crucial truth about the Force that has been thus far expressed about it both in the new Canon and in Legends continuity, with the bit from the Last Jedi Visual dictionary about the cyclical nature of the conflict between the Light and Dark reaffirming this bit. The Force demands balance and it will not blink an eye whether it's a Republic, a Resistance, an Empire or First Order ruling the galaxy. As long as there are none that use the Dark Side of the Force, thus use the Force in a selfish manner, the Force itself would be fine with whatever flag is waving over the galaxy. The Force primarily cares about those that use the Force or are instrumental in the destruction of those who use the Dark Side. It is why the Force manipulated Rey to be as strong in the Force as she was, it is why the Force manipulated events in such a way that Finn was sent with Rose to Canto Bight in order to learn to fight for a greater good, it is why the Force manipulated the birth of Anakin Skywalker, it is why the Force manipulated an entire Galactic Civil War so that Vader and Luke would fight and the former be redeemed by the latter. The Force will manipulate the entire galaxy if needed so that a select few key individuals who are destined to bring about the balance of the Force will have the strength and possibility of achieving that.

Therefore, my conclusion as to why Rey was as strong in the Force as she was is the following: Kylo Ren and Snoke rose in power with the Dark Side, using it selfishly and thus corrupting and perverting the state of the Force it is supposed to be in, namely only Light Side and 0 Dark Side users. In order to return the balance to the galaxy and itself, the Force manipulated for Rey to be awakened to the Force, because it chose her to be destined to bring about the balance (and perhaps the reason why she was chosen and not another will be revealed in Episode IX). As Kylo Ren grew in strength, the response of the Force was to let Rey grow in strength as well, despite the fact she might not have had much training. It was the Force itself that was manipulting Rey to in effect teach herself and why she excelled at the Mind Trick in Episode 7 or why she lifted all those rocks so easily in Episode 8. The Force didn't care about Rey being untrained, it needed her to be strong in order to be able to escape from Starkiller Base, to find Luke, to learn about the Force and what her destiny is. It needed her to be able to save the remaining Resistance members from the mines at Crait so that they in turn might help Rey bring about the balance in the Force and the galaxy the Force itself demands there to be. If there was no First Order, no Snoke, no Kylo Ren, then Rey might not even have gained any stronger attunement or connection to the Force and remained on Jakku, because in such a case there would have been no imbalance and no need for Light Siders to arise to fight it.

And that is also the meaning of the boy with the broomstick at the end of the Last Jedi. The Force has not only manipulated the galaxy in such a way that Rey became stronger attuned to the Force, but it has awakened that same connection within dozens if not hundreds of others. As I said before, the amount of Jedi in the galaxy is of no importance when there is no imbalance, but when the Dark Side arises through those who use the Force in a selfish manner and thus corrupt it, then the Jedi need to arise, or another incarnation of Light Side followers and warriors, in order to battle the rising darkness. In SWTOR it's the Jedi Order and Republic, in the original movies it's the Rebellion and Luke, in the prequels it's the Senators such as Padme and Bail Organa and Jedi such as Obi-Wan and Yoda... and in the newest sequels it's the Resistance and Rey, with a new generation of Light Side users at her side.

Remember Kreia's words to the Exile, for those who say that it's impossible for Rey to be as strong as she was in the Force in the Last Jedi:
Quote:
"Nothing is impossible with the Force." - Kreia in KOTOR II
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DavidAtkinson's Avatar


DavidAtkinson
01.05.2018 , 09:56 AM | #2
The biggest "problem" people have with Rey is that she is a female protagonist... who had experience in melee combat prior to actually holding a lightsaber... I never had problems with her being "too strong" too soon because I played zillions of star wars RPG's and when I watch these movies based on what I learned about the force from KOTOR 2 especially.

You quoted Kreia and indeed, nothing is impossible with the force. So the way the force manifests in Rey wouldn't be such a big deal in the Old Republic era and let's face it, the force manifested itself in the same way in Anakin Skywalker. He was the same nobody with his parent's being nobody on a desert planet int the middle of nowhere.



There were some voices who hated Erso also from Rogue One for the same reason. She was a female protagonist leading men into war.

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forestguard
01.05.2018 , 10:44 AM | #3
An interesting theory, one that I like a lot. I wish there was a more canon version of what Kreia said, although it seems we can infer it with other examples in the films (where did Luke learn Force Choke to get past Jabba’s guards? He never saw Vader do it, nor would Obi-wan or Yoda have taught him that).

As for the Force manipulating things, I know this is how I have accepted it, but could a similar concept be applied to things like Leia surviving, in that it still needed her to assist the bringing about of balance in some way like finally driving her lesson about leadership home to Poe?
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Ylliarus's Avatar


Ylliarus
01.05.2018 , 11:27 AM | #4
Quote: Originally Posted by forestguard View Post
As for the Force manipulating things, I know this is how I have accepted it, but could a similar concept be applied to things like Leia surviving, in that it still needed her to assist the bringing about of balance in some way like finally driving her lesson about leadership home to Poe?
Absolutely! Talking from a lore standpoint, I could completely imagine Leia having still a large role to play in the eyes of the Force in bringing back the balance to the galaxy. Her survival therefore and her seemingly instinctual use of the Force could very much be the Force manipulating her subconcious to bring herself to safety in order to survive. Leia has been instrumental in the past so I wouldn't be surprised if she was indeed one of the Force's chosen conduits to bring about the balance in the galaxy. For all we know, she only needed to survive to teach Poe what it means to be a leader because the Force foresees him as the next leader of the Resistance or that Poe in some way will be instrumental in helping Rey restore balance. Rose's intervention to safe Finn from death could be viewed through exactly the same scope: it was not his time to die then and there, thus the Force manipulated Rose to save Finn.

The key in all of this is that the Force sees these individuals, and in other eras other individuals such as the Hero of Tython or the Bar'senthor, as tools to use to achieve balance. So no matter how many lives are lost or what happens, the Force will do anything to remove those who use the Force in a selfish manner and thus corrupting it.

Quote: Originally Posted by DavidAtkinson View Post
The biggest "problem" people have with Rey is that she is a female protagonist... who had experience in melee combat prior to actually holding a lightsaber... I never had problems with her being "too strong" too soon because I played zillions of star wars RPG's and when I watch these movies based on what I learned about the force from KOTOR 2 especially.

You quoted Kreia and indeed, nothing is impossible with the force. So the way the force manifests in Rey wouldn't be such a big deal in the Old Republic era and let's face it, the force manifested itself in the same way in Anakin Skywalker. He was the same nobody with his parent's being nobody on a desert planet int the middle of nowhere.

There were some voices who hated Erso also from Rogue One for the same reason. She was a female protagonist leading men into war.
Sadly you are very much correct, Rey's gender is, to those people, the problem and not her aptitude in the Force. Yet I don't want to derail this discussion into that subject, as I want the focus to remain on the lore aspect of Rey's strength in the Force because as it stands I already have (gleefully) stepped on the toes of those that hate there is a female protagonist in the new sequels :P
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Jesseriah's Avatar


Jesseriah
01.05.2018 , 11:32 AM | #5
Wow. You changed my point of view on all what happened (especially around Anakin.) I always thought it was his destiny to bring balance to the force, meaning same amount of force users on both sides... But as you mentioned he got redeemed after he killed Palpatine makes perfect sense.. cause he had to bring balance back to the world killing Sidious so the world/force is free from dark siders abusing the force...

Thanks
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AlienEyeTX
01.05.2018 , 12:50 PM | #6
Quote: Originally Posted by Jesseriah View Post
Wow. You changed my point of view on all what happened (especially around Anakin.) I always thought it was his destiny to bring balance to the force, meaning same amount of force users on both sides... But as you mentioned he got redeemed after he killed Palpatine makes perfect sense.. cause he had to bring balance back to the world killing Sidious so the world/force is free from dark siders abusing the force...

Thanks
Lots of people have thought that balance meant having the same number on each side. I used to think that, too.

But, some time ago, I remember seeing or reading an interview with GL and that question was asked. He stated that the Force was in balance when there was only the light. The absence of the dark side is what determines balance.

Think of it as nature and everything being in harmony. The existence of anything that damages the harmony ruins the cycle... no matter what may be there to combat it.
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NuSeC's Avatar


NuSeC
01.05.2018 , 01:35 PM | #7
Quote: Originally Posted by DavidAtkinson View Post
The biggest "problem" people have with Rey is that she is a female protagonist... who had experience in melee combat prior to actually holding a lightsaber... I never had problems with her being "too strong" too soon because I played zillions of star wars RPG's and when I watch these movies based on what I learned about the force from KOTOR 2 especially.

You quoted Kreia and indeed, nothing is impossible with the force. So the way the force manifests in Rey wouldn't be such a big deal in the Old Republic era and let's face it, the force manifested itself in the same way in Anakin Skywalker. He was the same nobody with his parent's being nobody on a desert planet int the middle of nowhere.



There were some voices who hated Erso also from Rogue One for the same reason. She was a female protagonist leading men into war.
It has nothing to do with her being a woman. I have no idea why people say that other than to undermine the argument on the other side of the table in attempt to shame and silence them.

Was there an uprising over Satele Shan? No. Know why? Because her story was explained and made more sense then Rey's. However, Satele and Kotor in general are not canon. Rey is.

The problem with Rey is the Mary Sue extravaganza she displays. Jedi and Sith (who cares what gender they are?) would train for years. As stated before many time, Anakin himself, fathered by the force, still trained under Obi, Quigon and Yoda. Even then, we see how Duuko pwns him the first time they fight even after years of training. Had Yoda not jumped in, Anakin and Obi would be dead.

Yet this person, who has no lightsaber fighting skills ( a staff is not the same- especially when fighting a skilled and trained force user), who was never taught how to use the force to be telepathic and make people do things they would not normally do... just knows how to do these things with no training or instruction in the force - because that is how the story of a Mary Sue works.

https://fanlore.org/wiki/Mary_Sue
"Mary Sue type characters do exist in both fan fiction and canon. The main difficulty with true Mary Sue stories is that they often cause canon characters, established story lines, and the very inner consistency of the canon's reality, to behave wildly out of bounds. "

It is a joke and a disgrace to the plots of the former films.

So please, stop saying it is people hating on woman as an excuse to dismiss arguments as to why Rey is catching so much slack over it. Her gender has 0 to do with it.

Also this.
Quote: Originally Posted by DavidAtkinson View Post
There were some voices who hated Erso also from Rogue One for the same reason. She was a female protagonist leading men into war.

I personally liked the movie. TLJ is the first one I can say without question that I absolutely hate. I have saw them all, including the OT at the theater.
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Ylliarus's Avatar


Ylliarus
01.05.2018 , 01:46 PM | #8
Quote: Originally Posted by NuSeC View Post
The problem with Rey is the Mary Sue extravaganza she displays. Jedi and Sith (who cares what gender they are?) would train for years. As stated before many time, Anakin himself, fathered by the force, still trained under Obi, Quigon and Yoda. Even then, we see how Duuko pwns him the first time they fight even after years of training. Had Yoda not jumped in, Anakin and Obi would be dead.

Yet this person, who has no lightsaber fighting skills ( a staff is not the same- especially when fighting a skilled and trained force user), who was never taught how to use the force to be telepathic and make people do things they would not normally do... just knows how to do these things with no training or instruction in the force - because that is how the story of a Mary Sue works.
I would urge you to read my theory carefully, which explains why Rey was able to gain such strengths in the Force. I also urge anyone else not to discuss the subject of Rey's gender in this thread because it derails the subject. The subject is the way the Force manifests itself in the Star Wars Universe and I would very much appreciate if we remained on topic

Rey's strength without being trained actually make perfect sense within the Star Wars universe if you view the Force the way I do, which results in me not seeing Rey as a Mary Sue, but rather as a tool used by the Force to obtain balance.
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NuSeC
01.05.2018 , 01:52 PM | #9
Quote: Originally Posted by Ylliarus View Post
I would urge you to read my theory carefully, which explains why Rey was able to gain such strengths in the Force. I also urge anyone else not to discuss the subject of Rey's gender in this thread because it derails the subject. The subject is the way the Force manifests itself in the Star Wars Universe and I would very much appreciate if we remained on topic

Rey's strength without being trained actually make perfect sense within the Star Wars universe if you view the Force the way I do, which results in me not seeing Rey as a Mary Sue, but rather as a tool used by the Force to obtain balance.
Fair enough as long as other stay off of that subject as well.

I am glad it makes sense to you but for hundreds of thousands of other SW fans, it does not... not even close.
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Ylliarus's Avatar


Ylliarus
01.05.2018 , 02:11 PM | #10
Quote: Originally Posted by NuSeC View Post
Fair enough as long as other stay off of that subject as well.

I am glad it makes sense to you but for hundreds of thousands of other SW fans, it does not... not even close.
But have you read the theory? Because the theory comes from the perspectives that in-universe characters had of the Force, Kreia being a prime example. It's not a new view that was created by Disney but actually existed long before Disney acquired Star Wars. I am not saying that my theory has more weight because it is based on views from Legends, but if those hundreds of Star Wars fans don't agree with Rey and how she gained strength because supposedly it would contradict previously established lore, then I wonder if they have seen the lore correctly previously or had their own view of it that was incorrect.
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