Deception is just as viable as madness in pve. Stop with the misconceptions and discouraging people from playing a well rounded spec that CAN top the dps meters in ops.

The last patch gave Deception a nice boost and people should try the spec for themselves.

Deception is just as viable as madness in pve. Stop with the misconceptions and discouraging people from playing a well rounded spec that CAN top the dps meters in ops.

 

The last patch gave Deception a nice boost and people should try the spec for themselves.

What this guy said^

Deception can pull pretty much the same numbers as madness but has far more burst.

Edit: Sorc and assassin pull relatively the same DPS, so it's a matter of range/melee and bad *** double bladed lightsaber or a stick you never use ;].

Deception is just as viable as madness in pve. Stop with the misconceptions and discouraging people from playing a well rounded spec that CAN top the dps meters in ops.

 

The last patch gave Deception a nice boost and people should try the spec for themselves.

Is it viable? Yes. Is it optimal? No. Think like a raid leader for a minute or two. In an 8m group, which the majority of runs are, there's a maximum of 2 spots for melee DPS. 1 will go to a Marauder as they have top damage and Bloodthirst. That leaves you competing for 1 slot against all other DPS classes. Snipers, PTs, Marauders, Juggs and Mercs all pull equal or better DPS. Snipers and Mercs are safer due to range. 2 Marauders means 2 Predations and Bloodthirsts, which is a very good thing. Juggs and PTs are both more survivable due to heavy armor. Scale it up to a 16m and it doesn't get much better. BT is only party-wide, so that means 2 marauders to get the buff out to all DPS. and a potential of 2 slots to fill with a Sin DPS. This isn;t to say that Sin DPS is bad or useless, just know that you are fighting an uphill battle when it comes to finding a group for Ops.

EDIT: To be fair, Sorc DPS isn't all that highly sought after either. They're noticeably behind similarly geared/skilled Snipers and Mercs. OP, if you're looking to only DPS and do not mind having no role flexibility, I'd recommend rolling a Marauder or Sniper. PT is a good option if you want the ability to tank. Sorc is probably your best option if you want to be able to heal. While their DPS isn't in the best place right now, Merc healing and Operative DPS are worse off.

Is it viable? Yes. Is it optimal? No. Think like a raid leader for a minute or two. In an 8m group, which the majority of runs are, there's a maximum of 2 spots for melee DPS. 1 will go to a Marauder as they have top damage and Bloodthirst. That leaves you competing for 1 slot against all other DPS classes. Snipers, PTs, Marauders, Juggs and Mercs all pull equal or better DPS. Snipers and Mercs are safer due to range. 2 Marauders means 2 Predations and Bloodthirsts, which is a very good thing. Juggs and PTs are both more survivable due to heavy armor. Scale it up to a 16m and it doesn't get much better. BT is only party-wide, so that means 2 marauders to get the buff out to all DPS. and a potential of 2 slots to fill with a Sin DPS. This isn;t to say that Sin DPS is bad or useless, just know that you are fighting an uphill battle when it comes to finding a group for Ops.

You know, I've been part of end game raiding in multiple MMOs for 7 years. I've been a raid leader, an officer, etc. I hate when people talk like this when it comes to putting raids together. You make it sound like all you are in a raiding guild is a number. As if all you are to your guildmates is the class you play.

I've been in many a different raiding guilds. I've joined raids for other raiding guilds who needed to fill spots for a night. Let me remind you I've been doing this over the course of 7 years...I have NEVER ran across this type of attitude before, at least not as black and white as you make it out to be.

In my most recent raiding guild, when deciding who to invite for DPS, we look at the player first of all. We consider the actual damage the player puts out (the PLAYER, not the class...), his awareness and ability to stay alive and deal with fight mechanics, THEN, at the very end of everything, we consider what class he is and what other utilities his class brings.

So, contrary to what many people on the forums will tell you, class is actually the last thing you should look at when raid invites go out. People who tell you you'll never get invited to a raid if you're a certain class are dead wrong. Most raid leaders, from my experience and having been a successful one myself, don't think like that. We aren't robots with no emotions that only consider numbers and not the players themselves...

A bit off topic but there you go.

You know, I've been part of end game raiding in multiple MMOs for 7 years. I've been a raid leader, an officer, etc. I hate when people talk like this when it comes to putting raids together. You make it sound like all you are in a raiding guild is a number. As if all you are to your guildmates is the class you play.

 

I've been in many a different raiding guilds. I've joined raids for other raiding guilds who needed to fill spots for a night. Let me remind you I've been doing this over the course of 7 years...I have NEVER ran across this type of attitude before, at least not as black and white as you make it out to be.

 

In my most recent raiding guild, when deciding who to invite for DPS, we look at the player first of all. We consider the actual damage the player puts out (the PLAYER, not the class...), his awareness and ability to stay alive and deal with fight mechanics, THEN, at the very end of everything, we consider what class he is and what other utilities his class brings.

 

So, contrary to what many people on the forums will tell you, class is actually the last thing you should look at when raid invites go out. People who tell you you'll never get invited to a raid if you're a certain class are dead wrong. Most raid leaders, from my experience and having been a successful one myself, don't think like that. We aren't robots with no emotions that only consider numbers and not the players themselves...

 

A bit off topic but there you go.

Since you seem to think I'm talking out my butt or something... I have been progression raiding for the last 4 years. I've been an officer and guildmaster. I'm currently a raid leader. I've achieved as high as World #7 ranking as a healer in WoW. I've done progression raiding in this game as a Sniper, Marauder and Sorc healer. When our Sin tank goes on vacation this month, I'll most likely be filling his spot on mine. I do know what I'm talking about.

"Bring the player not the class" is true only to a certain extent. Fight mechanics preclude any group from stacking melee. Sure you can have more than 2, but you're making things unnecessarily difficult for your group if you do. This game is not melee friendly; that's not really up for debate. Any serious progression group is going to bring a Marauder. Along with being one of the top parsing classes, Bloodthirst is too good not to have on burn phases (last 10% of TFB, Kephiss, Toth and Zorn, etc.) This is the most blatant example of "bring the class". We went as far as having someone level up a Marauder 2 weeks into EV progression for this reason. As I said above, you're realistically competing for 1 spot as a Sin DPS. Blame the game design if you have to, but that is the sad truth.

That being said, if you are skilled enough, there's no reason not to take you. I've run with an excellent DPS Sin before and, if he were still playing, would certainly bring him along again. I would not, however, handicap the group by using 3 melee DPS or skipping a Marauder to do so unless there was no other choice or we were on farm content where it really doesn't matter.

Since you seem to think I'm talking out my butt or something... I have been progression raiding for the last 4 years. I've been an officer and guildmaster. I'm currently a raid leader. I've achieved as high as World #7 ranking as a healer in WoW. I've done progression raiding in this game as a Sniper, Marauder and Sorc healer. When our Sin tank goes on vacation this month, I'll most likely be filling his spot on mine. I do know what I'm talking about.

 

"Bring the player not the class" is true only to a certain extent. Fight mechanics preclude any group from stacking melee. Sure you can have more than 2, but you're making things unnecessarily difficult for your group if you do. This game is not melee friendly; that's not really up for debate. Any serious progression group is going to bring a Marauder. Along with being one of the top parsing classes, Bloodthirst is too good not to have on burn phases (last 10% of TFB, Kephiss, Toth and Zorn, etc.) This is the most blatant example of "bring the class". We went as far as having someone level up a Marauder 2 weeks into EV progression for this reason. As I said above, you're realistically competing for 1 spot as a Sin DPS. Blame the game design if you have to, but that is the sad truth.

 

That being said, if you are skilled enough, there's no reason not to take you. I've run with an excellent DPS Sin before and, if he were still playing, would certainly bring him along again. I would not, however, handicap the group by using 3 melee DPS or skipping a Marauder to do so unless there was no other choice or we were on farm content where it really doesn't matter.

First, apologies if I sounded like I was snapping at you. I've had this type of conversation a lot before, mainly in WoW, so I'm quite set in my opinion on it.

I didn't say you didn't know what you were talking about. I could tell from reading your post you were a very..progression oriented raider, and yes in more progression focused guilds I know they take things like group composition a lot more seriously, but my main point on that is that that's not the norm and I don't think it's right to try and convey it that way to someone who might not share your same ideals about end game raiding.

For me, raiding was more about the people I raided with rather than how far we progressed or how fast we did so compared to other guilds. That's not to say I wasn't a good enough player to make it in a more progression focused guild, I simply chose to stick with people I enjoyed playing with, otherwise I just get burned out really quick.

As far as melee vs. ranged I don't really consider that a "bring the class" issue since it encompasses multiple classes and it's more involved with specific fight mechanics. Perfect example of this was Mimiron in Ulduar in WoW. When Ulduar came out my guild put together a core 10 man group which I was the OT for and our focus was to bust through as fast as we could. If I recall we progressed up to Mimiron (10/13 bosses) in about 2 weeks. Unfortunately our core team consisted of almost exclusively melee DPS and Mimiron is pretty much impossible to defeat without some ranged. In that case you're pretty much forced to bring ranged over melee no matter what. Personally I think that's a lame design choice, since you're effectively exclusing/limiting certain players simply because of the class they chose, but that's just my opinion.

As far as 'bloodlust' type buffs, I agree. I remember, again back in Ulduar, we brought a Shaman into our 25 man who had literally just dinged 80 the day before and was still in a lot of quest greens..simply because we didn't have a Shaman on and needed bloodlust. Again I think this is an unfair choice design wise to practically require a specific class simply because of the utility it provides. In certain gimmicky fights it can be ok, but I don't think it's right to have such a general buff that is seen as a requisite to have all the time. I'm not saying classes shouldn't have different utility, or even some having more than others, but having a single ability that's considered so useful someone of that class must be in the raid at all times just seems...wrong, especially in a game like TOR where spots are more limited.

Anyway, this is getting more and more off topic. Feel free to respond if you wish, but I probably won't post anything further. At least not about this.

Kurugi, Sorry for the snippy response. I am definitely more of a progression-minded raider. It's just what I enjoy doing, and I sometimes forget that a lot of people take a much more casual approach to it. There's nothing wrong with that either. SWTOR is a game after all; the whole point is to have fun playing it. I actually agree with a lot of what you're saying about game design when it comes to ranged vs. melee and "bloodlust" type buffs. It leads to a "bring the class, not the player" situation, which I feel is bad. The progression crowd can normally get around this with alts. I know in both groups I run with, most of us have multiple alts sporting fully augmented Campaign or better. If we're missing something for the night we can shuffle around who's playing what to get what we need and we're still "bringing the player". The more casual players, however, rarely have this luxury.

Anyway, back to the OPs question. I actually would not recommend playing a Sin or Sorc for DPS. Marauders and Snipers simply outclass both of them at the moment. IMO, they're both more fun to play as well. But, if you're dead set on playing one of the two, I would go with Sorc just because it's generally easier to find a group as ranged and, personal opinion here, I did not enjoy DPSing on my Sin the few times I tried it.

Anyway, back to the OPs question. I actually would not recommend playing a Sin or Sorc for DPS. Marauders and Snipers simply outclass both of them at the moment. IMO, they're both more fun to play as well. But, if you're dead set on playing one of the two, I would go with Sorc just because it's generally easier to find a group as ranged

I'm 2 weeks shy of a full year playing this game and I have never, ever seen a LFM mDPS - I have seen LF marauder often enough and I see LF rDPS multiple times every evening. OP wants to raid? Rolling a DPS assassin will crush his/her spirit. That being said I've been deception since day 1.. LOVE the playstyle (and nope, I don't PvP). Damn difficult to learn the mechanics though, spending as much time on the bench as I do

I'm 2 weeks shy of a full year playing this game and I have never, ever seen a LFM mDPS - I have seen LF marauder often enough and I see LF rDPS multiple times every evening. OP wants to raid? Rolling a DPS assassin will crush his/her spirit. That being said I've been deception since day 1.. LOVE the playstyle (and nope, I don't PvP). Damn difficult to learn the mechanics though, spending as much time on the bench as I do

I kinda feel sorry for you and the server you are on. On The Shadowlands we LFM DPS. Thats it, first come first serve, been in a group with 2 maras, PT, and my Sin, no issues.

When we do full guild runs we try to keep one of each AC, with all the different combos it works out really well as a raid comp. We will still bring a player before class but its not often we are come to that crossroad with most of us having one each of the "4" roles.