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Deception / Infiltration Set Bonuses and Tactical Items


EricMusco

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Hey folks,

 

Following our Onslaught announcement at SW Celebration we want to start diving into feedback right away. I want to use this thread to talk about Tactical Item effects and Set Bonuses for Deception and Infiltration Disciplines. Our goal for set bonuses is to introduce new bonuses, and potentially with even new sizes so you can mix and match. Tactical Items are a new item type that is meant to be build defining and most likely to directly impact how an ability works. For inspiration here are two completely made up Chain Lightning Examples:

  1. Chain Lightning now does all of its total damage to only one target, and no longer jumps.
  2. Chain Lightning now jumps even more and does additional damage to secondary targets.

 

That would allow you to take a standard ability and allow it to be modified to fit your playstyle. Please use this thread to brainstorm ideas and make as many recommendations as you would like! For context:

  • Tactical Items: These should modify one of your Advanced Class/Discipline abilities to work differently. The goal is for you to use the ability in situations you previously wouldn’t (more often, against specific targets, etc)
  • Set Bonuses: These should be focused on the broader “kind of tools” your class uses, but not specific abilities. Some examples are sets that center around bleeds, force damage, lightning, shields, cover, and so on.

Set bonuses, tacticals, both, let us know what you would like to see. I may not respond frequently in this thread but know that I am going to be compiling everything and sending it over to the team.

 

-eric

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I think the ability that most needs attention is Spike. If you're not a tank doing PVP, this ability just isn't useful. It takes up a spot on your ability tray but it's hardly ever used. Let's fix that. Some examples of potential tactical item upgrades:

 

 

•When used from stealth, Spike stuns for 4 seconds instead of 2. (The stealth requirement is there, so tanks don't abuse it)

 

•When used from stealth, Spike no longer stuns and instead does triple damage and is an automatic critical hit (this allows spike to become part of your opener and contribute to your burst)

 

•When used from stealth, Spike makes you immune to stuns for 6 seconds.

 

•Spike can be used while stunned (stealth requirement is removed while stunned)

 

 

Just please find a way to make this ability more useful or just remove it. You can give tanks a tree upgrade that attaches a 2 second stun to some other ability. In its current form, Spike feels like the most filler ability in the game.

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I agree that spike may not be used as much as other abilities, but I wouldn't call it useless. (So please don't remove it lol) There are times where it can come in useful ex: (In a ranked game you can use it to get a kill on a player which is low HP when you have no stuns left using it to be able to damage through CD's like evasion and get the kill).

 

However, It would definitely be good if the game encouraged you to open with spike more with lets say a 20% damage reduction buff for 6 secs. I was about to say stun immunity, but having more stun immunity's in the game would just be more annoying and considering you can avoid some stuns with shroud, it may be too much.

 

In regards to the set bonus I'd be happy if you centred it around force damage for the recklessness discharge and ball lightning crits, to be honest I already like the set bonus in the game at the moment mainly because of the auto-crit on maul makes for a really good high burst opener.

 

little bit offtopic:

(Since you're adding more depth to the game bring back crushing darkness for deception)

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Just throwing some ideas at the wall here:

  • Something that allows Ball lightning to not trigger a second attack, but just deliver extra damage (so it doesn't use up charges of recklessness).
     
  • Make Maul do full damage regardless of positioning.
     
  • Have low slash also apply a heal debuff (similar to what marauders and snipers have).
     
  • An Item that removes the extra damage from overcharge saber, but gives it a better heal (or vice versa)

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What do you folks think of something that lets us change the attack and/or damage type? For example, say a force-to-energy datacron tactical item which absorbs what was about to be your discharge force/internal attack, and instead it blasts out a concussive ranged/energy attack. Something like that?

 

Or changes our defensives in a similar way... making Shroud grant immune to melee/ranged instead of force/tech or whatever?

 

I dunno, seems like it would be a nice surprise in PvP, for those people who know what everything does already. I have no idea if that would affect pve at all (or if it needs to - since we can pick our tactical items to suit "how we play", right?)

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I feel like one of the core strengths of shadows has been the amount of control we have over our opponents. So for me i'd like to try to accentuate that strength with these suggestions.

 

Tactical item: Make your whirlwind into a sort of vortex. All enemy players within 8m of the target will be sucked and displaced to the same location (or 1m from the center) of the original target and creates a zone(8M around the initial target) that will slow all enemy players by like 30% for the duration of the whirlwind. The slow zone ends early if the initial target who was whirlwinded takes any damage thus ending the cc as it is now. Anyone who was not sucked in by the initial vorxtex(not within 8m of original target) but walks into the zone, will be slowed too.

 

Set bonus (I'm hoping you will add set bonus slots to other pieces of guys like mainhand/offhand to give us even more options to be creative): IF this is the case and say the maximum set bonus would be 9 instead of 7. I'd suggest the max/best set bonus to make all players be rooted for 2 seconds after the effects of any kind of cc is finished: this would include: spike(2s), force stun(4s), lift(8s), mind maze(sap/8s) and for the infiltration spec include low slash(4s). This would not include grenades.

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Tactical Item Ideas. I would like to see some variations which can be a light variant of hybrid specs. but i think every advantage of an tactical item should come with a disadvantage in combination. Also i would advocate for 2 slots for those items. One offensive and one deffenisve

 

Some Offensive Tactical Items


  • Item 1
  • Positive: Change Lacerate to a 3 second channel dealing way more damage (like death from above)
    You could use some of those nice whirl channel animations done by some npc with doubleblades
  • Negative: 25-30 Second Cooldown. Not usabale on the run

 

Item 2

  • Positive: Make Spike a Proc usable out of stealth applying a bleeding dot on the target.
    initial damage should be the same as voltaic slash
  • Negative: no stun from spike anymore
    this would aid my intention to bring back some light hybrid specs

 

Otherwise i would support the idea of ball lightning (please get rid of its animation and go back to shocks) to be more consinstent and not rely on rng. (this rng is the reason why deception has such an high empirical variance...

or maul dealing same damage in front

 

 

Defensive Tactical Item


  • Item 1 (Could be used by all sin/shadow specs)
    Since ou guys kinda like those temporary quickbars (gods operation) why not use it for that
  • Positive: Add a trigger to temporary bar which changes the damage absorbed by shroud from yellow damage to white and vice versa. You could cange the color of shroud from white to red to signal opponents in pvp which one is active.
  • Negative: the normal effect of shroud is not active while the trigger is on.

 

and please bring back stun damage redcution.

Edited by ultimarb
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I think sin, especially deception is in the best position for these tactical item changes, as the item wont cause a rotational rework, but still affect the priority and change overall style of the spec. Here are a few ideas that I've come up with along with a few others. Going off of the post it does say tactical items should affect advanced class/discipline abilities, so I guess to have items that don't cross specs, so I won't be advocating for the spike changes.

 

Deception

-Critical hits with voltaic slash reduce the CD of Reaping strike by 1.5 seconds. Using your weaker filler allows for more stronger filler procs in the simplest sense.

-Ball lightning's 2nd hit also can trigger surging charge, if it can use my recklessness stack on a weaker hit, think it should also be able to build a stack like the first.

-Low Slash increases movement speed by 100% for 4 seconds after use. More of a mobility perk, for those who run away and targets that are far allowing you to regain uptime or even LoS away.

-Reaping strike builds a stack of recklessness. Whether or not this "activates" recklessness to instantly build a 3 stack discharge, which it would be nice, it would change priority to make reaping act like stride, but as a physical attack.

Edited by PrometheanDeath
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As a tactiful item, I would suggest giving Deception sins and shadows a dash ability that is simliar to op roll in regards to effects. The dash would be similar to Darth Maul's dash in BattleFront 2. This ability can be used twice in a 10 second window and has a 15 second cd, or something like that. This allows sins to avoid hardstuns and net since they do not have stun damage reduction. The dash can be used going in any direction.
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Anything that brings back Force Lightning to the Sith Assassin and Telekinetic Throw to the Jedi Shadow will be hugely appreciated. Those two abilities are iconic for the Sith Inquisitor class and when they were taken away from the Assassins and Shadows was the moment those two Advanced Classes lost all appeal to me. So if the Tactical item could bring back Force Lightning and Telekinetic Throw as a useful dps ability to these two Advanced Classes that would be absolutely great!
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IMHO, deception/infiltration has really been hurt over the years, not only by the nerfs to our damage, but by the increase in damage and survivability of other classes. As a melee class that has to be within 10 meters (realistically 5 for the majority of our damage rotation abilities), we have been especially hurt by the range dominated PvP world the past couple of years.

 

We need something that ups our damage and makes us more of the heavy hitting threat we were meant to be. We were in a pretty good place with the bug that doubled surging charge, especially when using overcharge saber. Maybe our trait or full set bonus gives us that ability to damage we had during that bug.

 

In addition to that, here are some other possibilities:

  • something that gives us a guardian or commando type ability to get health back from being hit.
  • Ability to reflect damage back that doesn't rely on us having to select a utility. Getting crushed by AOEs from ranged (even with 30% AOE reduction if we slot that utility) isn't really cool, especially when slowed.
  • something that allows us to regain our 30% damage reduction on stun that was removed from us and given only to tank

Edited by Kirtastropohe
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* Low Slash stuns all targets in its path, similar to how saber throw from Sents/Maras damages all enemies in its path.

 

* Mind Maze can now "sleep" more than one enemy within a radius of X from the player character (perhaps 10 meters). Force users as powerful as the characters are should be able to do this to more than 1 enemy.

 

* Spinning Kick/Spike can now be used out of stealth and for increased damage but no stun in this situation (a melee Jedi class needs a kick as part of their damage options, and the CC-only 1.x ability was taken away long ago - that kicking animation was awesome by the way and would be great to use for a "new" ability)

 

* Bring back Force Lightning and Telekinetic Throw as a wider, conal AOE. The current Whirling Blow animation looks sort of simple and silly, especially when the class is supposed to be extremely powerful with the Force.

 

*Resilience now reflects enemy damage and heals the Shadow for up to X% of their total HP. The reflect is limited on Ops bosses to a relatively low number, but not on player characters or regular enemy mobs.

 

* Psychokinetic Blast/Ball Lightning reduces opposing players' Alacrity and Critical stats temporarily. This can stack for up to X total. Getting hit in the Face with a big burst of FORCE should slow other players down somewhat, right? Currently, dps Shadows have some issues in PVP regarding survivability compared to other melee classes like Guardians. There are no doubt better ideas for this, but it is just one that would introduce messing with player stats as it relates to ability use, which I believe would be a new and interesting strategic introduction to combat. It has the added bonus of INFURIATING PVP players even more than usual, which is always at least a little funny.

 

TACTICALLY sneak in and take back Phase Walk for the class. I've found that cloaking out of combat has never been more unreliable in PVP and sometimes even PVE too (Ossus World Bosses for example, nowhere near a circle), even with the Resilience on cloaking utility selected. Shadows/Assassins need Phase Walk as a way to escape combat without any doubt of being pulled back in, especially with ranged classes having so many AOEs they can spam without worry about resources/ammo. Cloaking out of combat used to be reliable - it's not anymore. This would fix the problem a good deal, at least having one for a "must exit" situation based on Phase Walk's cooldown.

Edited by arunav
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Also, someone mentioned this before but allow lacerate to be a channeled ability or the current one. Of course damage varies depending on which one you pick. Another idea is maybe give dps sins, something similar to blade rush, where they are able to resist all incoming dmg and stuns during the duration and are able to move up 20 meteres.
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Tactical item that rolls back your Deception sin to 5.0 version + Phase Walk, that's all.

 

They were perfect before nerf hammer broke their burst and took their escape ability.

 

One idea tho.

 

Give em back DR while stunned + immunity to controlling effects when using certain ability, lets say Low Slash.

 

I'd take that over Force Lightning and Mad Dash anytime.

 

5.0 burst.

 

Phase Walk given back.

 

DR while stunned.

 

Low Slash grants immunity to controlling effects for 6 seconds.

 

Perfect Deception sin.

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Just make dps sins fast and very agile. They should be like ghost in warzones. They need to be slippery but squishy. They need to be glass cannons. Thats why giving them a dash ability would work very well with sins.
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Tactical Item to increase all Crit damage by X percent and lower all non-Crit damage by Y%

Tactical Item to decrease the cooldown of Reaping strike by X% (25% or 50%) and allows Assassinate to be used on targets regardless of remaining health.

A Tactical item to increase DR by 30% while stunned (something a lot of DPS need in PvP).

 

2pc set bonus: Activating Overcharge Saber increases crit chance by X% (let's say 15%)

or

2pc set bonus: Voltaic Slash causes your next Maul to be an auto-crit. this can only occur once every X seconds.

4pc set bonus: Ball Lightning no longer attacks twice from the level 40 Twin Surge passive. Instead, the damage is added to Ball Lightning itself (prevents Twin Surge from consuming a stack of Recklessness. Realistically, it's how it should work in my opinion. Maybe there's a reason it doesn't work as such).

6pc set bonus: When Discharge critically hits a target, the next Discharge receives a 50% damage boost (possibly put this on a timer, say 18 seconds give or take 6 seconds, but it would be awesome if it wasn't).

 

Also, take Phantom Stride off the GCD and give us Phasewalk again please.

Edited by SpleneticGamer
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Sins don't need more kiting or more defences, or even position requirement changes to the maul.

 

If you remove the maul position requirement you are gonna destroy the class feels, just buff them to the top damage wise, like in the 5.0 beginning, remove the defences if necessary, light armour should be glass cannon, not heavy armour pt.

Phasewalk is also good idea.

 

I like the dash idea, from battlefront 2. As one friend said, they should be a ghost in warzones, and playable in pve! Insane burst, phasewalk, stealth out, rest, insane burst, stealth out again.

 

So for the tactical reduce the cd of the force cloak, don't touch the spike, we don't need any more stuns, or root or anything. Just give me burst, take anything else. I don't even want a raid buff or utility at this point. Insane burst, better than ap pt.

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Tactical Item

Basic attack Saber Strike: is an AOE

Spike does double damage when out of stealth but no stun

whirl wind is now an AOE the slows movement and does more damage

Voltaic Slash is now an AOE but you throw the lightsaber straightforward

Overload, now only uses lightning but no force wave, now only does twice the damage and no knockback

Lightning Charge now increases the damage for all attacks that include lightning.

 

Bonus

Voltaic Slash now causes maul to auto crit

 

All I can think of right now

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Link to Main Forum Post with Google Doc of Failure's Set Bonus and Tactical Item suggestions

 

DECEPTION/INFILTRATION

 

Tactical Suggestions:

  • Low slash applies a dot that deals 10k dmg over 6 seconds. (breaks the incap in pvp)
  • Discharge does AOE damage within 8 meters
    • 90% damage to main target
    • 30% damage to remaining targets

 

 

Set Bonus:

  • 2 set - Discharge grants a stack that increases force crit by 2%. Stacks up to 4 times
  • 4 set - Using maul behind the target provides an automatic critical hit on reaping strike.
    • Can only proc once every 30s

     

    [*]6 set - Ball Lightning used with 2 stacks of Voltage now grants 2 stacks of Static Charge.

 

 

Other ideas:

  • General discipline passive change: Amped Voltage now applies to Discharge instead of Phantom Stride. Specifically, activating Discharge/consuming 3 stacks of Static Charge now regrants 3 stacks of Static Charge. Can only proc once every 30s.

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