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[Class Questions] Let's Start Fresh: 3 Questions to Devs RE: Powertechs

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Classes > Vanguard / Powertech
[Class Questions] Let's Start Fresh: 3 Questions to Devs RE: Powertechs

manchusabre's Avatar


manchusabre
09.17.2013 , 08:51 AM | #231
Can we get our single taunt to work faster? I know the animation delay was a big deal for nim dg prenerf.

Sardonyyx's Avatar


Sardonyyx
09.17.2013 , 09:20 AM | #232
Here's my question.


What on earth possessed them to nerf CGC by 50%. Were there that many people complaining about pvp? Because we only have one dot that didn't cost all of our heat, and then you nerfed it, effectively neutering us in pyro and pvp, because our one dot that's easy and doesn't cost a ton of heat gets cleansed anyway. And on the PTS FB no longer triggers CGC. Why is this? Why the continuous changes to pyrotech? Why nerf it then give nothing to compensate the nerf.

T-Assassin's Avatar


T-Assassin
09.17.2013 , 11:07 AM | #233
Quote: Originally Posted by Sardonyyx View Post
Here's my question.


What on earth possessed them to nerf CGC by 50%. Were there that many people complaining about pvp? Because we only have one dot that didn't cost all of our heat, and then you nerfed it, effectively neutering us in pyro and pvp, because our one dot that's easy and doesn't cost a ton of heat gets cleansed anyway. And on the PTS FB no longer triggers CGC. Why is this? Why the continuous changes to pyrotech? Why nerf it then give nothing to compensate the nerf.
If I may add to this:

The removal of FB proc'ing CGC 100% of the time is quite significant, due to all the cleanses and the CD on RP(now 100% proc). In PvE, this should not be much of an issue, but in PvP it is quite a nerf, being unable to RELIABLY, without CD, apply CGC after it is cleansed in order to utilize RS/HiB. Are we supposed to swap FB/IP spam for IM/IR spam? an attack that does ~50% LESS damage initially, and will be cleansed anyway? (so the DoT damage will be USELESS) HUGE DPS nerf for PT/VG's. Or, are we supposed to ONLY attack classes without a cleanse and hope the healers are asleep at the wheel. this will not work in COMPETATIVE PvP! absolutely absurd when you think about it. OUR BURST IS EVEN WEAKER!


2.4 is bringing a DPS upgrade to both Powertech damage dealing specializations, as well as a burst upgrade for Pyrotechs and a harder-hitting Immolate for Advanced Prototype. These upgrades should make Powertech damage dealers more competitive in PvP, with faster TTKs than before, and intrinsically more survivability because of that.

We never intend for hybrids to outperform the 36-point builds, and this is exactly what we addressed in the 2.4 update. Players should now find that both Immolate and Thermal Detonator deal more damage than they did previously. In addition, the Pyrotech should see some of its burst make a return in 2.4.

Please keep in mind that Pyrotech will perform considerably worse on a target dummy than it does in a real combat situation. There are two primary reasons for this. The most obvious reason is that the Burnout skill does not get its full effect on a target dummy, because a target dummy never falls below 30% health. The less obvious reason is because only around 48% of an Pyrotech’s damage ignores armor, while for Advanced Prototype this number is around 65%. This means that the Pyrotech has more to gain in situations where an armor debuff is present on the target, as should be the case in an operation.


This is just NOT true.

anyway, my question:


Currently, PT DPS is significantly lower than most on ALL parses and DPS leaderboards. This includes training dummies, as well as, Operations and Flashpoints. Well below ~5% of the top performing AC's, even further if you are a non-hybrid. The community has given you evidence of this (see: TORPARSE and Server DPS Leaderboard stats).

Pre 2.0 PT's(Pyro) were VERY competitive in DPS as recorded on server leaderboards and parses, within ~5% of top performing AC's. Please explain how you plan to make PT DPS competitive AGAIN, as well as the metrics used to prove this versus other AC's to within the ~5% SWTOR standard. The current changes on PTS only further nerf PT's DPS... Especially, in PvP (see above).


Not really a question, but it is a statement asking for explanation.

The community has provided proof, I would like to see some Dev proof...not just fluff answers and lip service.

I would love to see the metrics they use to balance DPS. The community has proven, BEYOND A REASONABLE DOUBT, there is a significant gap in top performing AC's and PT DPS, well below the 5% SWTOR standard.

The nerfs to CGC, as well as FB proc, has only widened the DPS gap. Show me some "metrics" that prove the community wrong...

"Ib'tuur jatne tuur ash'ad kyr'amur."
"Today is a good day for someone else to die." -

Blitz-wing's Avatar


Blitz-wing
09.17.2013 , 09:09 PM | #234
Suggestion of 3 Questions:

1. TANKING

Currently, the optimal mean mitigation is provided by stacking Defense over Absorb, however a lot of talents in the Shield Tech tree only take effect when an attack is shielded (e.g. Hydrolic Shield). This means optimal mean mitigation reduces the procs of Talents in the Shield Tech Tree.
Can the Combat Team explain the design of the Shield Tech & how it works with the 2.0 defensive stats balancing?

2. MOBILITY

Of all 3 trees, only one of them has a way to reliably close the distance in a short time - The Shield Tech tree. Jet Charge is not only too far up the tree to be usable at all in other specs, but without it there is a 45 second cooldown on the gap closer (30 seconds in AP) with this being a PvP focused ability as endgame PvE bosses are all immune to its use. All other melee classes have a gap closer, with 2 being directional. Are there any plans to make it easier for DPS specs to close the distance for their short-to-melee range abilities?

Suggestion: Jet Burst, propels forward in direction faced for 2 second at 200% speed. Cost 15 Heat. 15 cooldown.

3. PYROTECH

Currently on Live servers. Talents like Hyper Fuel, Hot Iron, Advanced Tools and Prototype Cylinders all do much more for a Pyrotech than Thermal Detonator, Degauss, Rapid Venting and Automated Defenses, making it so going any further than Burnout in the Pyrotech tree is not done in endgame content & a Hybrid is used instead.
With the changes on the PTS to the Talents: Thermal Detonator, Degauss & Automated Defenses making a 36-point Pyrotech build attractive again, there is still the issue of Rapid Venting (6th tier Talents).
Why does Rapid Venting grant alacrity? This Talent is detrimental to both damage and energy management, so what is the purpose of this Talent?

Suggestion: Make the Talent increase the Heat total just of other AC's have skills that increase there resource total. Or increase the Dissipation of Heat.

OR


2.0 saw a nerf to CGC of around 50%. Now on the PTS the proc chance of Flame Burst for CGC has been nerfed to 60% from 100%. Additionally Powertech's Rapid Shots is 3 attacks while Vanguard's is 5 for Hammer Shot, giving Vanguard's a higher chance to proc CGC with the basic attack over there mirror class! CGC is a major part of Pyro sustained dps & it has again been nerfed. With Rail Shot needing the target to be affected by a burn, reducing the chance that CGC is on the target will only reduce the ability of Pyro's to use Rail Shot. With the high level of cleaning in PvP only having a 60% chance that your spam move will proc the base burn for the spec can only be seen as a nerf. Can the Combat Team please explain how these changes are designed to increase Pyrotech dps & get the Pyrotech spec to within the required 5% range of the pure dps classes?

Suggestion: Return 15% damage done by CGC & return the proc chance of Flame Burst to 100%.
"Story is flavor. Content is substance....." - KBN '15

http://www.swtor.com/community/showp...8&postcount=81

easeyway's Avatar


easeyway
09.18.2013 , 03:37 AM | #235
Quote: Originally Posted by Sardonyyx View Post
Here's my question.


What on earth possessed them to nerf CGC by 50%. Were there that many people complaining about pvp? Because we only have one dot that didn't cost all of our heat, and then you nerfed it, effectively neutering us in pyro and pvp, because our one dot that's easy and doesn't cost a ton of heat gets cleansed anyway. And on the PTS FB no longer triggers CGC. Why is this? Why the continuous changes to pyrotech? Why nerf it then give nothing to compensate the nerf.

Quote: Originally Posted by T-Assassin View Post
If I may add to this:

The removal of FB proc'ing CGC 100% of the time is quite significant...

...The nerfs to CGC, as well as FB proc, has only widened the DPS gap. Show me some "metrics" that prove the community wrong...


Quote: Originally Posted by Blitz-wing View Post
Suggestion: Return 15% damage done by CGC & return the proc chance of Flame Burst to 100%.
Concerning PvP...

I'm gona vote no to the 100% Flame Burst proc return. I don't even mind the CGC DoT nerf (although the DMG could be slightly increased as it's most likely the problem of our DPS in PvE atm), if they'd improve the spec in some other areas. Spamming one talent only to do more dps than 90% of all classes, while slowing targets, and resetting a main hitter of the spec was just stupid.

About cleanses...The only talent that you should be worried about being cleansed is the TD after effect DoT. Because, it's our only DoT that we cannot reapply easily. Yes, IM is now "spammaple" (16 heat), and Rapid Shots is pretty much a guaranteed GCG Proc, FB 60%, and RP 100%. There's no way you should have trouble keeping these two DoTs in a target.

If a healer is using his/her cleanses to cleanse these two DoTs (IM and CGC) repeatedly in a fight, he's/she's wasting a GCD pretty much.

I'd like them to return Unload to Rain of Fire to make it at least some part of our "rotation". And/or, maybe adding something extra to DoA/Flamethrower as a Pyro. I agree that we might still be lagging in DPS, but it's not the boring and simply broken mechanics that we need back. Returning the range of TD and IM to 30 would go a long way of fixing the spec as that's how the spec was designed. Even back then I told them range wasn't the issue. The DoT was. But instead of balancing, they decided to go with just outright nerfing to make players of other classes happy. And that's what continued in 2.0, since apparently they did the wrong call in 1.4.

So, my Pyro question would definately be (and this needs some editing):

After reducing the Cylinder DoT of Pyrotech Powertechs by 50%, and removing burst from Thermal Detonator, what justification is there left for the range nerf that happened in 1.4, where Thermal Detonator and Incendiary Missile range were both reduced to 10 meters (from 30 meters)?.

The justification back then (the way you put it), was to reduce the burst the class could make from 30 meters. But, most of that damage actually came from CGC DoT coupled with Rail Shot, not Thermal Detonator. People have always avoided Thermal Detonator since patch 1.0 due to the CGC DoT being so powerful, and most lower tier talents supporting the DoT. So, other higher Pyro tree talents weren't (and still aren't) needed as the spec could've (and still could) be played by rotating between only Flame Burst, Rail Shot with Rapid Shots in between for some heat management. If burst was the problem (as you said it was), why did you not address burst issues (like you did in 2.0 with TD and CGC DoT), but instead changed the whole design philosophy that made the spec unique and different, at least from the player perspective (Jack of all ranges, Master of none)?

The spec has 4m (RP) and 10m (FB) range for Prototype Particle Accelerator...That means that one should always be using FB/RP to proc Rail Shot when in <10m range, because RS is not only the big hitter of the spec, it's also the heat management tool of the spec. So, after the range nerf, both IM and TD were left as a filler abilities to be used between the 6 seconds internal cooldown of Prototype Particle Accelerator, because there isn't any room for other 10 meter abilities. Once you are in 10m, if you aren't trying to proc RS, you are losing damage and hurting your heat management. 30 meters, or at least 15-20 meters range would allow the talent to be used as both a starter and finisher ability. Or changing the RS proc mechanism to RP (4m, 100%) only, removing the "tax" from casting other 10m abilities.

How can you justify a top tier talent to being a filler ability?


I mean, this is my problem. Getting the DMG up and all that is something that just needs tweaks on the talents themselves. But this is sorta the gameplay mechanic that annoys me: you start at 30m, you get to Rail before 10m. What do you do, when you reach that 10m? Assumed you are full Pyro, you'd like to use TD whenever it's off CD, it's the top talent after all, BUT...Like I said, Rail Shot and Rail proc is your bread and butter, so you sorta need to use FB first to get the proc CD on...But you might not get it the first try, so you use another FB and close the gap to 4m...And maybe only after RP, you actually get the proc to Rail...Now it has been a good 7-10 seconds from the moment you started from 30m, and only now you get to really use your IM and TD, but only as filler abilities, after which you start fishing for procs again...And next round, TD is still on CD...So, it's a mess, compared to when TD/IM were 30m.

Blitz-wing's Avatar


Blitz-wing
09.18.2013 , 12:28 PM | #236
Quote: Originally Posted by easeyway View Post

So, my Pyro question would definately be (and this needs some editing):

After reducing the Cylinder DoT of Pyrotech Powertechs by 50%, and removing burst from Thermal Detonator, what justification is there left for the range nerf that happened in 1.4, where Thermal Detonator and Incendiary Missile range were both reduced to 10 meters (from 30 meters)?.

The justification back then (the way you put it), was to reduce the burst the class could make from 30 meters. But, most of that damage actually came from CGC DoT coupled with Rail Shot, not Thermal Detonator. People have always avoided Thermal Detonator since patch 1.0 due to the CGC DoT being so powerful, and most lower tier talents supporting the DoT. So, other higher Pyro tree talents weren't (and still aren't) needed as the spec could've (and still could) be played by rotating between only Flame Burst, Rail Shot with Rapid Shots in between for some heat management. If burst was the problem (as you said it was), why did you not address burst issues (like you did in 2.0 with TD and CGC DoT), but instead changed the whole design philosophy that made the spec unique and different, at least from the player perspective (Jack of all ranges, Master of none)?

The spec has 4m (RP) and 10m (FB) range for Prototype Particle Accelerator...That means that one should always be using FB/RP to proc Rail Shot when in <10m range, because RS is not only the big hitter of the spec, it's also the heat management tool of the spec. So, after the range nerf, both IM and TD were left as a filler abilities to be used between the 6 seconds internal cooldown of Prototype Particle Accelerator, because there isn't any room for other 10 meter abilities. Once you are in 10m, if you aren't trying to proc RS, you are losing damage and hurting your heat management. 30 meters, or at least 15-20 meters range would allow the talent to be used as both a starter and finisher ability. Or changing the RS proc mechanism to RP (4m, 100%) only, removing the "tax" from casting other 10m abilities.

How can you justify a top tier talent to being a filler ability?

I like the question & the thinking you have here. It also is a better answer to the mobility issue rather then a gap closer & make the class different.

It's too bad the Dev's are making a terrible decision again & stopping the Q&A program.
"Story is flavor. Content is substance....." - KBN '15

http://www.swtor.com/community/showp...8&postcount=81

T-Assassin's Avatar


T-Assassin
09.18.2013 , 01:55 PM | #237
Quote: Originally Posted by easeyway View Post
Concerning PvP...

About cleanses...The only talent that you should be worried about cleansed is the TD after effect DoT. Because, it's our only DoT that we cannot reapply easily. Yes, IM is now "spammaple" (16 heat), and Rapid Shots is pretty much a guaranteed GCG Proc, FB 60%, and RP 100%. There's no way you should have trouble keeping these two DoTs in a target.
Great post, btw. Couldn't agree more with everything.

Concerning PvE, I had absolutely NO issue managing ammo(heat) and keeping both dots on target, following a pretty strict rotation. I like the change to IR/IM. AP/TD on the other hand, cannot be maintained in PvE.

So, end talent in Assault/Pyro is still pretty useless in PvE (DPS loss due to ammo/heat management on >3 min parses).

But, an overall ~50-80 DPS increase still puts us nowhere near top performing Snipers, 'Slinger, Marauders, and Sentinels. NOWHERE NEAR!!

From a Assault/Pyro PvE perspective..
"Ib'tuur jatne tuur ash'ad kyr'amur."
"Today is a good day for someone else to die." -