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AP Better than Pyro for Ranked!

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Classes > Vanguard / Powertech
AP Better than Pyro for Ranked!

FeralPug's Avatar


FeralPug
06.30.2012 , 10:08 AM | #1
I know. Obnoxious title. Sorry!

Background:

I've been a Pyro specced PVPer since before 1.2. I'm 90+ valor and still Social I. All I do is PVP. For ranked, my team is 34-6 and my elo is 1600. My 3 man won our server's 3v3 tourney, and placed 2nd in the 4v4 tourney. I'm also a certified Advanced Prototype despiser. I've hated it from the beginning.

Then 1.3 and ranked hit.

Let me be honest with you. In pre-ranked play my main focus was on damage and bursting down healers. If my damage wasn't number 1 at the end of the match, I took it as a failure to play my best regardless of whether the game was won or lost. I think pyro spec cultivates this mindset. Your sole purpose is burst, and if your damage numbers lack at the end of a match it is often a direct indication of how skillfully you played.

So, ranked dropped with a simultaneous relic/adrenal nerf, and although I've been winning lots of matches against solid players, pyro has felt confining to me. On a whim I respecced AP. I've played AP a few times and felt that it just couldn't hold up to pyro for PVP. I just tried it on a whim one morning to freshen up my game play.

What I noticed immediately is that now that relics have been nerfed, AP's damage is not that far off of pyro. It is less. No doubt about it. Although on some of my maps I've felt that if I had been pyro, I would be doing less damage than AP simply due to the speed at which I can be in the fight. Novare is a speed map. Hutball requires incredible mobility. The new Voidstar even requires speed and well timed stuns. Pair general speed with an fast grapple and quell cooldown and you have a build that is exceedingly adept at objective oriented play. It's also started to occur to me that sending folks to the spawn zone as fast as I can is not always a sound strategy.

In all the matches I've now played with AP, I've taken 1st or 2nd on the damage charts even beating an equally geared pyro. I'm more mobile. My grapple is on a fast cooldown, so Huttball is even more fun. HO allows me to play an offensive roll, whereas before as pyro I was pure middle control/defense. Pop HO, shield and the PVP adrenal and you can run right through the fire pits to score. Quell is on a fast cooldown which is excellent against healers and dps alike. With my build I was able to spec 3 points into Steely Resolve for 9% Aim boost.

Since ranked hit, because pyro is so slow in comparison to other classes, I'm usually relegated to holding turrets and nodes. When we need to reinforce, it usually makes sense for my team to send someone who can get to the objective fast. Since a win is more important that huge numbers in ranked play, I'm fine with that. But I can't help but think that mobility and control are the new kings of high-level PVP.

Are there disadvantages? Of course! Prototype Flame Thrower is still a little whacky for me. I am not using the 12 second rule because I still see flame thrower as a situational move. Don't get me wrong, I'm constantly working for a 5 stack of PFT but I've been conservative in when and where I use it.

I am also doing AP with Eliminators set. I'm fully augged, and min/maxed with power/surge enhancements. I'm starting to work on getting the Combat Tech armoring so I can plug it in and get the CT bonuses as I do believe they are better for AP.

Is AP really better than Pyro for ranked? Despite the controversial thread title, I'm not about to make that argument. In fact, I haven't run AP in an actual ranked game yet because I still feel like I'm learning the flow of AP.

Now that ranked has hit, it's dawning on me that huge numbers at the end of match doesn't mean that I affect the outcome of that match. I'm starting to wonder if I would rather get to that node faster, grapple that ball carrier into the fire more, avoid stuns and roots and overheating, and have my interrupt on a faster cooldown than have that 5-10% more damage.

Any other pyros adjusting their perspective now that ranked has hit? Anyone else think that AP just might be a better objective-based build for high-level PVP?

Luxidenstore's Avatar


Luxidenstore
06.30.2012 , 10:12 AM | #2
"It's also started to occur to me that sending folks to the spawn zone as fast as I can is not always a sound strategy."

You're rank 90+ and you learn this now?

.....

Better late than never I suppose.
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FeralPug's Avatar


FeralPug
06.30.2012 , 10:21 AM | #3
Quote: Originally Posted by Luxidenstore View Post
"It's also started to occur to me that sending folks to the spawn zone as fast as I can is not always a sound strategy."

You're rank 90+ and you learn this now?

.....

Better late than never I suppose.
You're just learning the concept of sarcasm now?

Don't be an ***. Respond to the content pls.

Suryi's Avatar


Suryi
06.30.2012 , 11:41 AM | #4
An inspiring story of how a player learned that damage at the end of a game means close to nothing, this is rare and downright unheard of

I do agree that AP/Tactics (I'm a Vanguard) has a more "tactical" side to it as opposed to Pyro/AS, however in RWZ i picture PT/VG as the class you bring to anihilate targets. There are other ACs that have much greater mobility and are better suited even then AP at the whole "get there fast and be a pain in the ***" thing, while Pyro is way up there when it comes to burst and killing stuff fast. Because yes, situationally, sometimes it is better to not kill your oponents, but most of the times nuking that healer down fast is more important.

What I'm trying to say is that yes AP has more utlity then Pyro and all in all is more of a pain in the ***, however there are ACs that do it better then AP and have other advantages so might as well stick to what Pyro does best which is make people disappear.

Just my opinion tho. I've only played Pyro and only occasionally messed around with AP so yeah, this is all just thinking out loud

FeralPug's Avatar


FeralPug
06.30.2012 , 12:33 PM | #5
Quote: Originally Posted by Suryi View Post

Just my opinion tho. I've only played Pyro and only occasionally messed around with AP so yeah, this is all just thinking out loud
Thanks for getting my post. I'm not trolling, or making any absolute statements (in spite of the trollish title!).

Pyro's burst got rounded out in 1.3 with the relic/adrenal nerf. I'm getting very similar damage numbers, and having similar kill times with AP but with a truckload of utility packed in.

I know we had a "try AP for a week" thread when it was buffed in 1.2. I think 1.3 might be an even better time to give it a whirl because I don't think the relic/adrenal nerf impacts it quite as hard as it does pyro.

Would love to hear from folks who are running it in ranked play. Again, I'm not going to use it in ranked yet as I have folks who depend on my burst. When I'm comfortable with it, I'll give it a shot.

Would also love to hear from folks who have combat logged both pyro and AP post 1.3.

Siphorus's Avatar


Siphorus
06.30.2012 , 03:53 PM | #6
No, just no. AP is NEVER better than pyro in ANY situation.

Lithy's Avatar


Lithy
06.30.2012 , 04:47 PM | #7
Quote: Originally Posted by Siphorus View Post
No, just no. AP is NEVER better than pyro in ANY situation.
In huttball AP is better. You can win huttball matches with minimal kills. I would much rather have an AP than a Pyro for huttball.

Rather someone run off to a corner and heal than die and respawn in front of our ball carrier at an inopportune time, unless of course it's our jug running it and then we tactically coordinate to kill ONE person to provide a jump.
Lithíum Hartshotte, Sniper
Exit Area

Tallianna Hartshotte, Gunslinger
Officer of Shadowed

Kostheman's Avatar


Kostheman
06.30.2012 , 05:03 PM | #8
Ive been playing my assault vanguard pretty much since release, (i leveled as shield) and i have to say, im actually liking tactics more then assault for rateds. Any smart team will lock the assault down and really limit what he is able to do. Tactics has so much more utility, and also has better survival, and while it still has really strong burst, it still isnt even on the same level as assault.

Im currently 18-1 in rateds with tactics, i actually decided to try it out since in 1.3 they finally fixed the snare on pulsecannon. Anyways, after playing assault for so many months its nice to have another competetive spec to play around with.
Hoffen, Uncensored

Luxidenstore's Avatar


Luxidenstore
06.30.2012 , 07:31 PM | #9
Quote: Originally Posted by FeralPug View Post
You're just learning the concept of sarcasm now?

Don't be an ***. Respond to the content pls.
Stop defending it with sarcasm, when it was not. Stuff like "Your sole purpose is burst, and if your damage numbers lack at the end of a match it is often a direct indication of how skillfully you played." clearly show this. Good try though.

And to the topic, no, Pyro is still better.
Use my Referral link and save starving children on Rishi. Join the movement now.

jadjay's Avatar


jadjay
06.30.2012 , 09:32 PM | #10
I'm not in ranked yet as I'm still leveling but I have been running the pyro build simply because it is an awesome burst spec that is great for killing quickly and getting rid of healers but I have some issues with it. One being that PT Pyros are probably running neck and neck with mara's for who will be next to face the nerf bat and although it may not come until the next update rolls out which could be 6 months from now and I could just enjoy it while it lasts, I don't want to get comfortable with a spec only to see it nerfed to the ground and have to switch to AP anyway (yeah I know, dumb reason but that's how I see it, flame away)

Another issue I have with Pyro is as you say it has no additional benefits like there are in the AP tree, the reduced CD on grapple is good for multiple reasons not just for huttball, better survivability in damage mitigation, run speed buff and reduced interupt cd, also AP is not as dependent on a single cylinder, you can switch to the ion cylinder if you need to guard and still be effective, not nearly as effective but not as gimped as if you were to switch as a pyro.

As I see it, yeah you will have a dps loss from just straight up damage loss but you might make up for it by getting to nodes/team mates/ball carriers faster, lasting longer and being able to grapple people into traps more. I think it looks like it may be worth it in the long run and I'm going to try it out.

My question to you OP is are you using RS or are you just sticking to the NORSE build? and could you link your Build?