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3 Days as an Advanced Prototype on live: An in-depth Pyro BHs look

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Classes > Vanguard / Powertech
3 Days as an Advanced Prototype on live: An in-depth Pyro BHs look

Saprezzan's Avatar


Saprezzan
04.06.2012 , 01:21 AM | #21
Quote: Originally Posted by TheOpf View Post
Prototype is already up in a really really short period of time, and in 1.2 Immolate adds a stack as well. The problem still lies in the fact that you have to stop the enemy from moving long enough to use Flame Thrower. Granted the slow will benefit this ability. Plus it will no longer be interruptable so that's a big plus.
I'm afraid it might still be a bit too slow, but I haven't played on the PTS, so you might be right. But back to the original point - free Rocket Punch is underwhelming, after all this tree doesn't have heat problems, so it's hardly mandatory. I'd prefer something that'd add some synergy to the tree, that'd make AP more deadly in melee.


Quote:
We have a speed increase, and the slow is inline with every other slow in the PT tree. I don't see an issue with it since their main goal is to get us to use PFT.
But the slow isn't inline with other snares in the game. You have to rememeber that AP is very much melee-oriented, much more than the Pyrotech (which funnily enough has access to a much more reliable snare) and it doesn't have a real gap closer like the shieldtech does (I don't count the HO as a gap closer, though it can be used in this way somewhat). And I think you'll agree with me that adding a snare to a 15 second DoT is a bit counterproductive - to keep the target snared you need to waste (unlike the Pyro, for an instance) 16 heat on a lackluster attack and refresh the DoT, not letting it to run its full course.

So in a way, the problem with the snare is exacerbated by RB's mediocrity. If RB was a much more potent attack then I would agree that 6 seconds of a 30% snare is sufficient.

Quote:
I don't mind charged guantlets. I do hate how it often fades away before i ever get to use it because of the 9 sec CD on Rocket Punch and the 15 sec CD on Rail shot. Rotation of Immolate/Flame Burst - Rocket Punch - Rail Shot - Flame Burst stack to 5 - Flame thrower and the proc is gone.
Granted, it's not terrible, but it has little synergy with the tree. Like I've said, a crit on a RS (which is on a 15 second cooldown for us) is a measly increase in the DPS. I'm aware it does add some burst, but it still feels rather clunky in this spec.

Quote:
I don't think anyone would argue with this change, not even those we attack
Yeah, RB is a bit of a waste currently; only nice to apply a DoT for the RS. You might say it's similar with Incendiary Missle - but it's ranged and you only need 1 point for it anyway.



Quote:
No, that would make it a huge overpowered affect. 20 percent reduction in damage for that long is way way too over the top.

Good ideas though.
Make it 2 seconds then? Doesn't seem so overpowered - and you have to remember that we don't really have great defensive CDs as Vanguards/Pyrotechs.
Progenitor/Vanguard/Guardian

Karandor's Avatar


Karandor
04.06.2012 , 09:59 AM | #22
Trying to use flamethrower whenever you have 5 stacks is not the way to play. You have to make sure you can stun + use HO so that you can't be knocked around. With it getting a snare in 1.2 the stun won't be needed but you should still use it with HO up.


Flamethrower/pulse cannon is very good damage but situational. You will hurt yourself if using that is what you are focusing your playstyle around.


The initial burst of the spec is quite good when you blow adrenal and relic to Immolate, RP, FB until RP or immolate is back up. Retractable blades really is only useful if you're fighting a stealther and want a DoT up or you need the DoT to use a crit RS.

Flameburst/ion pulse hits incredibly hard in this spec. With adrenals going you can easily crit for 2.7-3k with 2.2-2.5k crits the norm without. Gut/RB is a waste of a GCD/ammo to use it instead when you want to go for a quick kill unless you have a crit RS/HiB proc from RP/SS. Once it has a snare it will be much more useful but with your increased movement speed the snare still won't be needed much of the time. It really needs an increase in damage.


Killing healers shouldn't be much of an issue since you have a 6s CD interrupt. Knowing what to interrupt is the key which will be easier once there is a customisable UI and you can have the cast bar with the name of the spell more central. 6s CD with a 4 sec lockout means that unless the caster is standing still and mashing a 1.5s cast (lol flamethrower/pulse cannon) you should be able to keep it permanently interrupted. The best use for FT/PC is to take out guarded healers by nailing the healer and the tank in the burst. It will hit the tank for 1.5X damage meaning they can easily take 3k+ per tick often allowing you to do a quick target switch to burst the tank down before the healer can react. When interrupting and DPSing a healer you can easily run out of ammo (the 1 ammo for interrupt every 6s counteracts the HE bonus ammo), looking forward to having our interrupt be no cost.


Another key to using the spec is popping HO/HtL BEFORE you get into combat with anything with a KB. You can often make an entire group waste their KBs on you while you are immune. It makes killing snipers and mercenaries extremely easy. It also causes a ton of confusion as they see you're not at full resolve and often they'll blow their stuns and other CC on you (generally wasting it because you take less damage) giving you full resolve by the time your HO/HtL runs out.

The spec is NOT better than pyro/assault right now but should be at least as good after 1.2 and possibly better simply due to better heat management. I have to say the the 8/31/2 spec is better than the 6/33/2 spec. The increased aim is very important for having that super hard hitting FB/IP. If you focus only on using FT/PC you are hurting yourself.

Also something I want other people to try: I think using mortar barrage/death from above with 5 stacks does more damage. Maybe I'm crazy and I haven't done an absolute test yet but I have had MB critting for 2.5-3k (on multiple targets) without adrenals or anything going. Normally it crits for 2k or so. Going to do a proper test today as it may just have been from the marauder party buff or something else I didn't notice at the time.

Hizoka's Avatar


Hizoka
04.06.2012 , 10:26 AM | #23
Quote: Originally Posted by Karandor View Post
Trying to use flamethrower whenever you have 5 stacks is not the way to play. You have to make sure you can stun + use HO so that you can't be knocked around. With it getting a snare in 1.2 the stun won't be needed but you should still use it with HO up.


Flamethrower/pulse cannon is very good damage but situational. You will hurt yourself if using that is what you are focusing your playstyle around.


The initial burst of the spec is quite good when you blow adrenal and relic to Immolate, RP, FB until RP or immolate is back up. Retractable blades really is only useful if you're fighting a stealther and want a DoT up or you need the DoT to use a crit RS.

Flameburst/ion pulse hits incredibly hard in this spec. With adrenals going you can easily crit for 2.7-3k with 2.2-2.5k crits the norm without. Gut/RB is a waste of a GCD/ammo to use it instead when you want to go for a quick kill unless you have a crit RS/HiB proc from RP/SS. Once it has a snare it will be much more useful but with your increased movement speed the snare still won't be needed much of the time. It really needs an increase in damage.


Killing healers shouldn't be much of an issue since you have a 6s CD interrupt. Knowing what to interrupt is the key which will be easier once there is a customisable UI and you can have the cast bar with the name of the spell more central. 6s CD with a 4 sec lockout means that unless the caster is standing still and mashing a 1.5s cast (lol flamethrower/pulse cannon) you should be able to keep it permanently interrupted. The best use for FT/PC is to take out guarded healers by nailing the healer and the tank in the burst. It will hit the tank for 1.5X damage meaning they can easily take 3k+ per tick often allowing you to do a quick target switch to burst the tank down before the healer can react. When interrupting and DPSing a healer you can easily run out of ammo (the 1 ammo for interrupt every 6s counteracts the HE bonus ammo), looking forward to having our interrupt be no cost.


Another key to using the spec is popping HO/HtL BEFORE you get into combat with anything with a KB. You can often make an entire group waste their KBs on you while you are immune. It makes killing snipers and mercenaries extremely easy. It also causes a ton of confusion as they see you're not at full resolve and often they'll blow their stuns and other CC on you (generally wasting it because you take less damage) giving you full resolve by the time your HO/HtL runs out.

The spec is NOT better than pyro/assault right now but should be at least as good after 1.2 and possibly better simply due to better heat management. I have to say the the 8/31/2 spec is better than the 6/33/2 spec. The increased aim is very important for having that super hard hitting FB/IP. If you focus only on using FT/PC you are hurting yourself.

Also something I want other people to try: I think using mortar barrage/death from above with 5 stacks does more damage. Maybe I'm crazy and I haven't done an absolute test yet but I have had MB critting for 2.5-3k (on multiple targets) without adrenals or anything going. Normally it crits for 2k or so. Going to do a proper test today as it may just have been from the marauder party buff or something else I didn't notice at the time.
you make good points... i think too many people switch from pyro to AP and stil try to play like they are pyro. They playstyle is completely different.

TheOpf's Avatar


TheOpf
04.06.2012 , 11:12 AM | #24
Quote: Originally Posted by Nijraw View Post
Here is the Priority Rotation that I have worked out so far.
Flamethrower (5 stacks of Proto)
Rail shot (crit procced)
Immolate (Procs Flame Barrage)
Rocket Punch (Free Rocket Punch)

Retractable Blade
Flame Burst
Flamethrower (any stacks before 5)


Fixed the rotation for ya, reason Immolate has a 100% chance to pro a free Rocket punch.
Also tweeked your spec a bit.
You bring up a good point, my only counter point is we don't want to wait on RP for the free one as it's a major portion of damage. Since the cooldown is every 9 secs, It's better to wait on using immolate until RP comes off it's 2nd CD.
So the rotation would be somthing like Imm/RP/RB/RS (if procced/FB/FB/FB/RP (if off CD)/FB/FB/PFT (5 stacks) or something like that.


Quote: Originally Posted by Nijraw View Post
http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#301GMZMsr0RrfkdsZb.1 last point anywhere you like, my reasoning for taking "Power Armor" is it stacks with "Stabilized Armor" giving you 22% damage reduction while stunned.

Another version on the spec is a "never ending flame burst spam spec This spec in PvP will let you spam flame burst nonstop and never over heat due to many ways to reduce heat in combat with "Gyroscopic Alignment Jets" & "Prototype Cylinder Ventilation".
http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#301hZMsr0RrfkdsZbcb.1
Power Armor is really really poor. Even tanks don't take the points usually. It's a really bad percentage per point taken. It's better to have the utility of hitman or advanced Tools
The Bounty Hunter AP Guide: Always Learning -Vanguard Tactics Guide: Where is my PG Slow?
Anam Ithieor- 50 AP Powertech
Anbas Ithieor- 20 Operative (lethality/healer)

TheOpf's Avatar


TheOpf
04.06.2012 , 11:32 AM | #25
Quote: Originally Posted by Saprezzan View Post
I'm afraid it might still be a bit too slow, but I haven't played on the PTS, so you might be right. But back to the original point - free Rocket Punch is underwhelming, after all this tree doesn't have heat problems, so it's hardly mandatory. I'd prefer something that'd add some synergy to the tree, that'd make AP more deadly in melee.
It's 5 GCD's to proc, and in 1.2 your rotation will be more like

Imm, RP, RB, FB, FB, RS (when Procced), FB, FB, RP, PFT, than begin again.

It's a bit clunky, and makes me wonder why even worry about using Rail shot. I personally see no reason to take the bonus damage in RS since I can go 2-3 rotations without ever getting Charged Gauntlets to proc.


Quote: Originally Posted by Saprezzan View Post
But the slow isn't inline with other snares in the game. You have to rememeber that AP is very much melee-oriented, much more than the Pyrotech (which funnily enough has access to a much more reliable snare) and it doesn't have a real gap closer like the shieldtech does (I don't count the HO as a gap closer, though it can be used in this way somewhat). And I think you'll agree with me that adding a snare to a 15 second DoT is a bit counterproductive - to keep the target snared you need to waste (unlike the Pyro, for an instance) 16 heat on a lackluster attack and refresh the DoT, not letting it to run its full course.

So in a way, the problem with the snare is exacerbated by RB's mediocrity. If RB was a much more potent attack then I would agree that 6 seconds of a 30% snare is sufficient.
The problem on live and will be in 1.2 (though less often) is the lack of a 4m-10m damage or closer. Using HO as a closer is a bad idea it's better used as someone pointed out as an offensive barrage when PFT is ready.



Quote: Originally Posted by Saprezzan View Post
Granted, it's not terrible, but it has little synergy with the tree. Like I've said, a crit on a RS (which is on a 15 second cooldown for us) is a measly increase in the DPS. I'm aware it does add some burst, but it still feels rather clunky in this spec.

Yeah, RB is a bit of a waste currently; only nice to apply a DoT for the RS. You might say it's similar with Incendiary Missle - but it's ranged and you only need 1 point for it anyway.
In the 2 days I have played it, I have found RS to be almost a complete waste of time to use. It does less damage than FB/RP/Immolate and PFT. I see no point in spending points in talents that buff it a measly 6 percent. As a Pyro that uses RS on proc this seems odd since it hits like a truck, but Pyro has talents that boost it. As an AP, it's only used on Charged Gauntlets proc otherwise it's not worth the energy used so why do we have to waste 3 points in Puncture and then your point about Charged Gauntlets is valid.
The Bounty Hunter AP Guide: Always Learning -Vanguard Tactics Guide: Where is my PG Slow?
Anam Ithieor- 50 AP Powertech
Anbas Ithieor- 20 Operative (lethality/healer)

TheOpf's Avatar


TheOpf
04.06.2012 , 11:52 AM | #26
Quote: Originally Posted by Karandor View Post
Trying to use flamethrower whenever you have 5 stacks is not the way to play. You have to make sure you can stun + use HO so that you can't be knocked around. With it getting a snare in 1.2 the stun won't be needed but you should still use it with HO up.
A bit confusing, but I get what you are saying. I think there is a misunderstanding. I meant there is no reason to use FT unless you have PFT. You are 100 percent correct about HO being used offensively, and I wish I would have thought of it. Optimally you would get 5 stack PFT and then POP HO and PFT on pve. On pvp you would pop HO, Electrocute and then unleash PFT.

Quote: Originally Posted by Karandor View Post
Flamethrower/pulse cannon is very good damage but situational. You will hurt yourself if using that is what you are focusing your playstyle around.
The problem is the entire tree is dedicated to that exact playstyle. You spam FB until RP is ready than you spam FB until PFT is ready. Mixing in Immolate and RS when necessary. If you don't play to use PFT than you re just FB spamming which really makes the spec beyond boring.


Quote: Originally Posted by Karandor View Post
The initial burst of the spec is quite good when you blow adrenal and relic to Immolate, RP, FB until RP or immolate is back up. Retractable blades really is only useful if you're fighting a stealther and want a DoT up or you need the DoT to use a crit RS.

Flameburst/ion pulse hits incredibly hard in this spec. With adrenals going you can easily crit for 2.7-3k with 2.2-2.5k crits the norm without. Gut/RB is a waste of a GCD/ammo to use it instead when you want to go for a quick kill unless you have a crit RS/HiB proc from RP/SS. Once it has a snare it will be much more useful but with your increased movement speed the snare still won't be needed much of the time. It really needs an increase in damage.
The only error with this is the initial damage. The initial burst of Imm/RP/FB is really really weak compared to Marauder, Juggs, Pyro PT, Mercs, Operatives, non-lethality snipers, and pretty much any other dps tree. The spec is based on building up to an amazing amount of damage in PFT. Immolate and RP hit hard, but the other trees have similar attacks that hit harder. Pyro has TD/im/rs/rp which hits like a truck immediately.

The rest I completely agree with. After multiple WZ's, and now a dungeon. I find I do more damage if I ignore RS and RB and use them situationally which is completely hilarious. However weaving them into a pve rotation of IM/RP/FB x3/RP/FBx2/PFT is really clunky. The rotation becomes smoother if we ignore them. So why have talents that boost them?


Quote: Originally Posted by Karandor View Post
Killing healers shouldn't be much of an issue since you have a 6s CD interrupt. Knowing what to interrupt is the key which will be easier once there is a customisable UI and you can have the cast bar with the name of the spell more central. 6s CD with a 4 sec lockout means that unless the caster is standing still and mashing a 1.5s cast (lol flamethrower/pulse cannon) you should be able to keep it permanently interrupted. The best use for FT/PC is to take out guarded healers by nailing the healer and the tank in the burst. It will hit the tank for 1.5X damage meaning they can easily take 3k+ per tick often allowing you to do a quick target switch to burst the tank down before the healer can react. When interrupting and DPSing a healer you can easily run out of ammo (the 1 ammo for interrupt every 6s counteracts the HE bonus ammo), looking forward to having our interrupt be no cost.
I still find that Quell is really strong if used right, and I agree 100 percent on this except if you make a mistake and use quell at the wrong time you have almost no prayer of downing them currently. In pyro, you can screw up and still have the burst to drop them. There is no other tree that were it becomes so necessary to be almost perfect in order to come close to killing a healer.


Quote: Originally Posted by Karandor View Post
Another key to using the spec is popping HO/HtL BEFORE you get into combat with anything with a KB. You can often make an entire group waste their KBs on you while you are immune. It makes killing snipers and mercenaries extremely easy. It also causes a ton of confusion as they see you're not at full resolve and often they'll blow their stuns and other CC on you (generally wasting it because you take less damage) giving you full resolve by the time your HO/HtL runs out.
This is a good point, and I will try it on day 3. If I do that it should be coming off CD by the time PFT is ready to roll.

Quote: Originally Posted by Karandor View Post
The spec is NOT better than pyro/assault right now but should be at least as good after 1.2 and possibly better simply due to better heat management. I have to say the the 8/31/2 spec is better than the 6/33/2 spec. The increased aim is very important for having that super hard hitting FB/IP. If you focus only on using FT/PC you are hurting yourself.

Also something I want other people to try: I think using mortar barrage/death from above with 5 stacks does more damage. Maybe I'm crazy and I haven't done an absolute test yet but I have had MB critting for 2.5-3k (on multiple targets) without adrenals or anything going. Normally it crits for 2k or so. Going to do a proper test today as it may just have been from the marauder party buff or something else I didn't notice at the time.
I don't think anyone is arguing it's better than Pyro, well not with any logic. I also think in it's current state it's worse utility wise. I am just trying to understand it's playstyle. I mean a completely melee tree with no slows, extended stuns, or major burst outside of PFT requires some serious effort.

However I completely disagree with you, it is about building up to hammer them with PFT. The playstyle is about maximizing contact time and setting up the opponent for the PFT burst. Otherwise what exactly is the playstyle. What is the point of AP if it's not about PFT? Immolate/RP/FB don't hit hard enough to scare anyone. Is the point to mindnumbingly wittle them down and then occasionaly use PFT when it's perfect?

I am sorry, but I just can't believe that BW setup a tree to be that bad. It's all about PFT for this tree. Immolate/FB/RP are nice, but the main burst is PFT. It's just badly designed on live to play that way. In 1.2 with the no interrupt 70 percent slow PFT it will be much much better.

I see what you mean about 8/31/2, but losing the imp electrocute seems like a loss. Maybe taking the two points out of Puncture and going something like this

8/33/2 while simply moving the points back to imp RS for pve purposes. Does that make sense?
The Bounty Hunter AP Guide: Always Learning -Vanguard Tactics Guide: Where is my PG Slow?
Anam Ithieor- 50 AP Powertech
Anbas Ithieor- 20 Operative (lethality/healer)

TheOpf's Avatar


TheOpf
04.06.2012 , 11:55 AM | #27
DAY 2 IS UP!

After last night, I may go to 4 days just to get a better feel. To me day 2 feels like a lost day. I was so off my game that I even lost to an operative 1v1 at one point. No semi-decent PT should ever lose to an operative or assassin. I got beaten by both last night. Granted it was completely on me. I crushed them later, but it was not a pretty night.

I had a Sage and Commando get me so rattled I almost never recovered.
The Bounty Hunter AP Guide: Always Learning -Vanguard Tactics Guide: Where is my PG Slow?
Anam Ithieor- 50 AP Powertech
Anbas Ithieor- 20 Operative (lethality/healer)

TheOpf's Avatar


TheOpf
04.06.2012 , 12:16 PM | #28
Quote: Originally Posted by Hizoka View Post
you make good points... i think too many people switch from pyro to AP and stil try to play like they are pyro. They playstyle is completely different.
As one of the people who attacked you over AP, and I will still disagree with you on it's utility. I first need to apologize for the anger that I directed towards you. I still think you are too argumentative at times, but I understand your frustration. The tree is frustratingly broken in some areas, and that bothers me greatly the more I play AP.

The tree is significantly less forgiving than Pyro to mistakes or poor play in terms of damage lost. It is significantly easier in terms of heat management.

You are 100 percent correct in that it requires a completely different mindset and the play style of AP is so different than Pyro that I have been at it 2 days, and still kick myself half the time. It's more unique in terms of the style of play than any other tree. Almost all melee trees play the same, you close the gap, set up your attacks and then burst. AP tends to play like a ranged sitting in melee waiting for procs while setting up a stationary burst. It requires you to constantly be 4m away to optimize your damage output, but your burst is a channelled attack which is completely different than any other melee that I am aware of.

The change in style of play is even more abrupt than the change from Madness or Darkness sin to Deception sin. Peronally, I find it a challenge
The Bounty Hunter AP Guide: Always Learning -Vanguard Tactics Guide: Where is my PG Slow?
Anam Ithieor- 50 AP Powertech
Anbas Ithieor- 20 Operative (lethality/healer)

Karandor's Avatar


Karandor
04.06.2012 , 01:01 PM | #29
Quote: Originally Posted by TheOpf View Post
However I completely disagree with you, it is about building up to hammer them with PFT. The playstyle is about maximizing contact time and setting up the opponent for the PFT burst. Otherwise what exactly is the playstyle. What is the point of AP if it's not about PFT? Immolate/RP/FB don't hit hard enough to scare anyone. Is the point to mindnumbingly wittle them down and then occasionaly use PFT when it's perfect?

I am sorry, but I just can't believe that BW setup a tree to be that bad. It's all about PFT for this tree. Immolate/FB/RP are nice, but the main burst is PFT. It's just badly designed on live to play that way. In 1.2 with the no interrupt 70 percent slow PFT it will be much much better.

I see what you mean about 8/31/2, but losing the imp electrocute seems like a loss. Maybe taking the two points out of Puncture and going something like this

8/33/2 while simply moving the points back to imp RS for pve purposes. Does that make sense?
See the bold italics underlined part. Yes that is basically it. Though I find the damage is far better than just "whittling" them down. When you save it for the perfect moment it wins fights brutally and totally. When you use it as much as you can, 1/2 the time or more it's pretty much a waste of 3 ammo. 1.2 will completely change this mentality but for now it holds true.

I don't think pyrotechs realize just how far ahead of every other class they are on burst damage, especially on heavy armor classes. Compared to pyro it is much slower damage but no other class in the game comes close to the damage pyro does. AP's damage holds up to any class in the game except pyrotech. I top the meters with AP pretty much constantly.

I think I may go with the changes to spec that you suggest. RS bonuses really aren't needed since I use it even less than an IF spec does.

Going to try that tonight.

anwg's Avatar


anwg
04.06.2012 , 01:42 PM | #30
Quote: Originally Posted by TheOpf View Post
DAY 2 IS UP!

After last night, I may go to 4 days just to get a better feel. To me day 2 feels like a lost day. I was so off my game that I even lost to an operative 1v1 at one point. No semi-decent PT should ever lose to an operative or assassin. I got beaten by both last night. Granted it was completely on me. I crushed them later, but it was not a pretty night.

I had a Sage and Commando get me so rattled I almost never recovered.
Ehh? I find operatives and scoundrels very difficult, because after their alpha strike, I'm down 8-9k already, and they can dispel our dots. In my experience it's the other way around, no operative should lose to a PT