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3 Days as an Advanced Prototype on live: An in-depth Pyro BHs look

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Classes > Vanguard / Powertech
3 Days as an Advanced Prototype on live: An in-depth Pyro BHs look

TheOpf's Avatar


TheOpf
04.05.2012 , 02:17 PM | #11
Quote: Originally Posted by exphryl View Post
While slightly derailing, but pertinent to a thread that does have AP (I myself have played full AP for long durations at times to a lackluster feeling of it once it is said and done. PvP or PvE, although PvE the shortcoming are far fewer and not as noticeable other then "burst" phases in some fights)

It's partially why the AP/Pyro hybrids are THAT much better than Full AP. It basically gives you all the benefits AP *should* have while keeping the great benefits of HO/FT etc. Rather depressing if you think about it. Even without the Crit % Boost talents in the hybrid you make up for the damage by more RS/Amazing Heat management/CGC.

Also, least from my recollection, the RB Snare being added in 1.2 isn't a long duration so it will still be relatively easy for an opponent to get away (unless you feel like being in melee hopefully spamming a poor damaging ability)
Again, my goal was to attempt to do a deep AP build and use HEC for better synergy. Everyone is well aware of the benefits of Ironfist, and the other AP/Pyro Hybrids. However they both require the usage of different cylinders, and neither gets immolate. Immolate is the iconic ability to this tree.
The Bounty Hunter AP Guide: Always Learning -Vanguard Tactics Guide: Where is my PG Slow?
Anam Ithieor- 50 AP Powertech
Anbas Ithieor- 20 Operative (lethality/healer)

TheOpf's Avatar


TheOpf
04.05.2012 , 02:22 PM | #12
Quote: Originally Posted by Saprezzan View Post
AP needs more work, I agree.

- Flame Barrage is a waste, I agree - this ability has no place in this tree. Replace it with something like this : "Immolate has a 100% chance and Flame Burst has a 50% chance to grant two stacks of Prototype Flame Thrower instead of one."
Prototype is already up in a really really short period of time, and in 1.2 Immolate adds a stack as well. The problem still lies in the fact that you have to stop the enemy from moving long enough to use Flame Thrower. Granted the slow will benefit this ability. Plus it will no longer be interruptable so that's a big plus.


Quote: Originally Posted by Saprezzan View Post
The snare is too short, should be 9 at the very least, upwards to even 15 seconds, to bring the duration in line with the DoT portion.
We have a speed increase, and the slow is inline with every other slow in the PT tree. I don't see an issue with it since their main goal is to get us to use PFT.

Quote: Originally Posted by Saprezzan View Post
Charged Gauntlets makes no sense, very little synergy with the tree. AP's HiB's don't even hit that hard and are on a long cooldown, so what good will a guaranteed crit really do?
I don't mind charged guantlets. I do hate how it often fades away before i ever get to use it because of the 9 sec CD on Rocket Punch and the 15 sec CD on Rail shot. Rotation of Immolate/Flame Burst - Rocket Punch - Rail Shot - Flame Burst stack to 5 - Flame thrower and the proc is gone.

Quote: Originally Posted by Saprezzan View Post
Serrated Blades is crap. It should perhaps increase both the instant and DoT's damage by 30%.
I don't think anyone would argue with this change, not even those we attack.

Quote: Originally Posted by Saprezzan View Post
Stabilized Armour should persist 3-4 seconds after the stun wears off.
No, that would make it a huge overpowered affect. 20 percent reduction in damage for that long is way way too over the top.

Good ideas though.
The Bounty Hunter AP Guide: Always Learning -Vanguard Tactics Guide: Where is my PG Slow?
Anam Ithieor- 50 AP Powertech
Anbas Ithieor- 20 Operative (lethality/healer)

TheOpf's Avatar


TheOpf
04.05.2012 , 02:34 PM | #13
Quote: Originally Posted by Kipp View Post
Can't wait to read Days 2 and Day 3. I have a feeling you're going to find something that will be game changing for that spec.
haha, Not sure anything i find will be game changing. There are bigger proponents of the spec, and a few who can probably tell you more about it. I do think that the two main guys who proclaim AP to be way way over the top and abusive at times.

My goal is to simply understand the spec and playstyle a bit more so when I discuss it then I will actually come from a more understanding point of view.

The only thing that I have found to be of any value so far is that it's just as RNG as Pyro in that you want to use RP when you proc the free buff with FB, and you want to wait on Rail shot until you get the auto crit proc.

Essentially AP comes down to a priority system.
  1. Flamethrower (5 stacks of Proto)
  2. Rail shot (crit procced)
  3. Rocket Punch
  4. Immolate
  5. Retractable Blade
  6. Flame Burst
  7. Flamethrower (any stacks before 5)
The Bounty Hunter AP Guide: Always Learning -Vanguard Tactics Guide: Where is my PG Slow?
Anam Ithieor- 50 AP Powertech
Anbas Ithieor- 20 Operative (lethality/healer)

mugen_dom's Avatar


mugen_dom
04.05.2012 , 04:11 PM | #14
What Gear are you wearing? I think the set bonus/level of gear comes into play here for sure, eliminator or PVE combat tech im assuming as your a pyro normally speaking just wondering though. With the nerf coming who knows what really going to happen to the pyros out there. I do love retractable blades animation i dont love its heat. I go back and forth between IF and Pyro but when I was AP i hated it didnt know the mechanics at the time of launch so it was like this sucks going tank so I dont die. Look forward to more.

TheOpf's Avatar


TheOpf
04.05.2012 , 04:21 PM | #15
Quote: Originally Posted by mugen_dom View Post
What Gear are you wearing? I think the set bonus/level of gear comes into play here for sure, eliminator or PVE combat tech im assuming as your a pyro normally speaking just wondering though.
I haven't changed my gear at all still rolling the same gear. Technically, I am still wearing the Taris heroic Powertech gold/red gear. It's my favorite style of gear. I really hate the bulky look of everything else BH offers. I really want the Powertech Foundry gear mmmm. I just change the mods. I am running heavy on power/surge mods. I am short on my expertise currently which could lead to some slight dips. Honestly I dont' think there is much of a difference in what's required for each tree.

Quote: Originally Posted by mugen_dom View Post
With the nerf coming who knows what really going to happen to the pyros out there.
Pyro will not see a major nerf, it's a minor nerf that a little baffling since most of us are reliant on the procs to vent heat. It's going to be a bit of work to rebuild it, and it's going to keep them from being able to wreck someone in 6 seconds, but it's not as bad as it's being painted.

Quote: Originally Posted by mugen_dom View Post
I do love retractable blades animation i dont love its heat. I go back and forth between IF and Pyro but when I was AP i hated it didnt know the mechanics at the time of launch so it was like this sucks going tank so I dont die. Look forward to more.
RB's animation is smexy, but it's sound is dog ugly, and everyone immediately knows you are an AP at that moment. The heat is nothing as a full AP. Plus I only use it every 12-15 secs or when switching to a new target. Unless Rail shot is coming off cooldown it's the least important skill I have. It does hardly any damage and the dot is weak enough where it's only worth applying to proc rail shot.
The Bounty Hunter AP Guide: Always Learning -Vanguard Tactics Guide: Where is my PG Slow?
Anam Ithieor- 50 AP Powertech
Anbas Ithieor- 20 Operative (lethality/healer)

Timepants's Avatar


Timepants
04.05.2012 , 05:23 PM | #16
I noticed that you specced into Kolto Vents. Did you find it useful enough to justify the point, because I never did; 7% health over 10 seconds isn't really worth using Vent Heat on its own for IMO, and I rarely have heat troubles as it is as a AP that I really need to use Vent Heat too often, thus having an added benny on it is nice and worth the point. For me, it ends up sitting there as a wasted point.

Maybe try taking the point out of that and that last point out of Steely Resolve, and put them into Hitman for Day 2? I've found that 6 second Quell is really noticeable, especially when you're trying to harass and lockdown a healer or turret caster.

Just a suggestion based on my own experiences as AP! Liking the thread, and I'll be following it.

EDIT: Also, unlike your priority, I usually Immo before I RP when I can, especially at the beginning of the fight; if you're specced into Flame Barrage, you might as well use it and get that guaranteed heat-free Rocket Punch to start off, right? Then I put up Retractable Blade and go for the Rail Shot. When 1.2 comes around, though, I'll probably put up RB first and give the DoT ticks a chance to proc it, but we're talking about Live.

dardack's Avatar


dardack
04.05.2012 , 06:25 PM | #17
200k less on average? I've spent more then 1 week in AP after months in Pyro.

I hope I'm not one of the ones who you think is over the top. I've said Pyro has insane burst, but I solo Q a ton, and Pyro is very squishy. I have more deaths in Pyro then in AP. My avg less damage is about 40-60k only.

I time my carbonize with my FT. I'll let my stacks sit at 5 until I get 2+ together, carbonize FT. Mine tick crited for 2.7k.

Because of this post, I decided to go back to Pyro to make sure I was thinking correctly.

3 matches in. Very much more squishy. I run HEGC in AP. In AP i can single handily score 2-4 times in a HB match with no help. In pyro no way. In CW/VS i can live longer in AP defending against multiples.

I love the burst of Pyro, esp for PVE. But I love AP and it's Utility in PvP. With the slows coming to AP i think i'll like it more.

It's not for everyone. And I've never said it's on par with Pyro's Burst/Dps. But for me overall in a match they are close. And without running with a healer, hell most of my matches don't even have a pug healer, AP is for me for now.

In ranked with grouping with guranteed healers, I may make a different observation.
Doofensmirtz lvl 50 PTIn Erebus Drooga's Pleasure Barge. 4 Imps 50. Doofentrooper lvl 50 VG in Goof Troop DPB
Dear BW please have RS/HiB send me to other fleet Nekkid. TY. Also, don't allow 3 sin/shadow 2 sorc/sage teams in HB. That is all.

Nijraw's Avatar


Nijraw
04.05.2012 , 08:10 PM | #18
Here is the Priority Rotation that I have worked out so far.
Flamethrower (5 stacks of Proto)
Rail shot (crit procced)
Immolate (Procs Flame Barrage)
Rocket Punch (Free Rocket Punch)

Retractable Blade
Flame Burst
Flamethrower (any stacks before 5)


Fixed the rotation for ya, reason Immolate has a 100% chance to pro a free Rocket punch.
Also tweeked your spec a bit.

http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#301GMZMsr0RrfkdsZb.1 last point anywhere you like, my reasoning for taking "Power Armor" is it stacks with "Stabilized Armor" giving you 22% damage reduction while stunned.

Another version on the spec is a "never ending flame burst spam spec This spec in PvP will let you spam flame burst nonstop and never over heat due to many ways to reduce heat in combat with "Gyroscopic Alignment Jets" & "Prototype Cylinder Ventilation".
http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#301hZMsr0RrfkdsZbcb.1

Xsorus's Avatar


Xsorus
04.05.2012 , 09:27 PM | #19
I only ever found real success on AP when doing the 31 Points in AP/10 in Shield Tech route while using defensive gear

It was more damage then regular 31 points of shield tech, and stabilized armor made me beefy as hell when running the ball back in the day. if I was guarded, I basically took zero damage while stunned which was extremely useful.

It also wasn't bad cause we were doing a lot of dungeons and raids back then and I could switch over to tank or dps just by changing my gear.

Now with that said, I've played it as just a DPS build, and while it's heat management is nice, and its DPS steady, that doesn't actually work well in PvP, because you need high burst damage to kill most people and that's what Pyro does best.

I personally don't even think with the coming changes that it will help AP much, because as a DPS line it's rather ****... Its honestly a much better defensive line then DPS.

Mapex's Avatar


Mapex
04.06.2012 , 01:02 AM | #20
Quote: Originally Posted by TheOpf View Post
haha, Not sure anything i find will be game changing. There are bigger proponents of the spec, and a few who can probably tell you more about it. I do think that the two main guys who proclaim AP to be way way over the top and abusive at times.

My goal is to simply understand the spec and playstyle a bit more so when I discuss it then I will actually come from a more understanding point of view.

The only thing that I have found to be of any value so far is that it's just as RNG as Pyro in that you want to use RP when you proc the free buff with FB, and you want to wait on Rail shot until you get the auto crit proc.

Essentially AP comes down to a priority system.
  1. Flamethrower (5 stacks of Proto)
  2. Rail shot (crit procced)
  3. Immolate
  4. Rocket Punch
  5. Retractable Blade
  6. Flame Burst
  7. Flamethrower (any stacks before 5)
Yup, this is it (combined with the pros/cons from the day 1 impressions). People are overthinking this spec, especially those that play it for two hours and then give up on it.

I have to thank you for explaining what I've been trying to say forever about Flame Thrower. That ability alone makes 30% of the tree thanks to Prototype Flame Thrower; it's a huge source of bursty DPS as well as cast/channel pushback (great for owning healers). People always underestimate it, but when they catch on they know to interrupt it. The slow at 5 stacks, Immolate adding a stack, and uninterruptibility from 1.2 will make Flame Thrower borderline overpowered; I expect the 70% slow to be reduced, especially since it's operating in a cone AOE.

Also, people downplay the importance of a slow when it comes to burning down a lone enemy. Of course PyroTech does it better - it has both the spammable slow the keep an enemy from retreating behind their allies and the burst to kill them before they can kill you. AP's damage is great and is very capable of burning a target down. However, the lack of the slow means your targets are very easily able to run away from you towards their teammates, robbing you of kills and getting you annihilated by their friends.

I do disagree with your day 1 impressions of Flame Barrage. The Heat-free Rocket Punch is a lifesaver if your Heat gets out of whack as it potentially can in PvP; see Quell spam on its 6 second cooldown and lack of Rapid Shots in the AP priority rotation. In 1.2 when Quell no longer costs Heat, then sure I can see Flame Barrage being useless.

Overall, your day 1 impressions are basically all that needs to be said for the spec. The lack of slow and the mechanical handicaps (not the self-root but the interruptibility and lack of slow) of Flame Thrower are really the only things holding the spec back (I even mentioned them in the AP thread in my signature). In fact I fear the 1.2 changes might overpower the spec and make it the flavor of the month because of how powerful PFT and Retractable Blade have become in the new build. We'll have to wait and see what happens.
Streamlining Cover to be More User-Friendly and Intuitive
Improving the Adv. Prototype/Tactics Tree
Imperial: Mapex (PT) | Jerro (Sorcerer) | Khallus (SM) | Vinegarstrokes (Operative)
Republic: Mapekz (GS) | Khallas (JG) | Ammon (Shadow) | Bobbumman (Commando)