I'm one of those republic scrubs and my pvp sucks because I'm new. Against imps we just get zerged on by their premades and can't do anything against their team comps and overall teamwork and strategy which admittedly trumps ours (though thats not saying much...we're mostly PUGs, the best on the imps side are in premades).

Also to the people saying "just face people better than you and you'll learn" you have to realize that you learn nothing from facing people who are higher level, better geared, premade, and facing a group of PUG republics. Sure you can learn your defensive CDs better and try to focus one target, but there is no way you are winning that match when you are outgeared, outleveled, outmatched, outcomped etc. Yes, in SWTOR, being outcomped IS a thing. A well-balanced team that covers each other's class and spec weaknesses will trump a team of 8 random classes+specs just thrown together every time.

You get better through close matches, not lopsided, uneven ones where you stand next to 0 chance, and can't really learn from your mistakes since the main reason you lost was being outgeared, outzerged, out-team-comped etc. We are talking about groups people that run balanced comps of juggs, powertechs, healers, and a marauder or two against people who are leveling up random classes on the pub side because they find them fun.

There is a point where your "PVP skill" only takes you so far and there is nothing you can do against these well-thought out comps run by premades who are probably talking on skype or vent.

I'm not complaining, just stating the truth. And I realize that I'm new and have a lot to improve upon in my PVP, but the fact is that there are far less PVPers on pubside who are willing to group up and zerg unranked WZs like the imps do. Being a great PVPer can only take you so far.

So if you're an experienced pvper, please give pubside a chance on this server, you will help the nubs on our side like me out a lot. Thanks!

The biggest piece of advice that needs to be spread is read and use ops chat. I'm certainly no stranger to getting belligerent when my team is sabotaging themselves by not paying attention, or any number of issues, buta lot of team organization problems can be resolved if people are willing and ready to use ops chat and listen to someone if they're trying to coordinate or call for help.

I think the lack of organized pvpers pub side is responsible for people learning bad habits like this.

Small steps can and will make a big difference, and it's important to try now more than ever now that ground PvP has its comm and credit boost, and double XP.

The biggest piece of advice that needs to be spread is read and use ops chat. I'm certainly no stranger to getting belligerent when my team is sabotaging themselves by not paying attention, or any number of issues, buta lot of team organization problems can be resolved if people are willing and ready to use ops chat and listen to someone if they're trying to coordinate or call for help.

 

I think the lack of organized pvpers pub side is responsible for people learning bad habits like this.

 

Small steps can and will make a big difference, and it's important to try now more than ever now that ground PvP has its comm and credit boost, and double XP.

People read and follow ops chat in all levels of pvp in pubs. That is not the problem, nor was it ever the problem.

We must not be playing in the same matches then.

Far too often calls for help go unanswered, or plans get ignored and people suffer from lone wolf mentality.

I had to read this post a few times to really try and digest what you're trying to say. After a while I sort of rested on a couple of things.

Ahh, well, I'm sorry I wasn't more concise.

The first is that people don't want to be mean, and that people don't like people being mean to them. The second is that people especially don't like people being mean to them after they've spent a good deal of time getting their look just right before they head into a warzone. The third is that people should still want to win but should be nice about how they go about doing it.

That's about the basic run of it. I understand that PvP is supposed to be competitive, but I'm beginning to sense from the amount of 'Pubs no PvP why?!' threads that have been cropping up, that the current level of competitiveness is starting to take a toll on player influx. Nobody wants to walk into a meat grinder.

I hate to sound trite, but are you being serious?

I take no offense, but the answer is yes. I am presenting my opinion ingenuously. This is what I think. I can be wrong. I can be trippin'. I can be influenced by my current point of view.

I'm not sure how to take the second point. I personally try to create a distinctive look for Triggle that people will recognize beyond the name...

Ah-heh...see, this is why that sort of idea was for another thread. I recognize that some people don't invest a great deal personally into a character. Actually, probably a lot, even. Just...forget that whole bit, it's really tangential.

As to the third point, when it comes to PvP you have to want to get better. The main driver behind this is seeing other people play who are better than you and wanting to meet or exceed them...

 

Sometimes you have to suffer the blowout loss. It puts things into perspective and allows you the chance to correct mistakes. If you take a bad loss and just rage about it, then you're doing yourself a disservice. Becoming a better player is as much about learning from others as examining yourself to see where you need improvement. I still take cues from other people, I still want to learn, and I still want to get better.

Okay, now this is the point that I think really matters. At least on GSF, we have a differing opinion.

In a domination map, if at all possible, we on Ebon Hawk don't three-cap. A longer match means longer flight time, giving new or middling pilots more time to get better, and learn what works and what doesn't. Moreover, a longer match results in less new-player turnover (still happens, but there's a difference between a considerate victory and a noobstomp), a chance at more Requisition to allow for better upgrade purchases, more long-term interest, and maybe even a measure of respect for the local veterans. These same veterans will also willingly handicap themselves by selecting a less upgraded ship, a less powerful loadout, or something they're uncomfortable in, specifically in order to present a friendlier environment for newer players.

Blowouts, three-caps, and noobstomps, by their nature, intent and design, are jarring experiences. That can be necessary for a journeyman PvPer. However, the problem right now, if I understand things correctly, is that these jarring experiences have not served as instructional or inspirational instances, but instead as demoralizing ones. Players have dropped out rather than face it again, or worse, face it on a consistent basis.

Now, yes, we can rail all day about how it shows an uncommitted mindset on the part of those who are consistently demoralized by Ground PvP, and list, itemize and alphabetize the many faults and failings of those folks, but that won't solve the problem: What can WE, the established PvP crowd, do to keep folks in?

Of course, in this instance, 'we' means 'y'all', since, if I understand right, GSF isn't real PvP anyway...! I'm just here to try and provide a little outside perspective, and the ideas that I'm issuing from that perspective can be potentially wrong, I'm willing to accept that.

I believe that if we make a concentrated effort to spread knowhow, and give advice as well as pub side pvping classes then the swell of republic scrubs will drop considerably. Replaced with capable pvpers.

This is Part Two of how to deal with the problem. Again, I resort to explaining GSF to provide perspective.

TEH's GSF Channel, accessible both Repside and Impside, is a hangout for many experienced pilots, and a repository for tips, tricks, advice, and assistance. We advertise it...uhh, when we remember to, heh heh...and bill it as a place where new pilots who are interested in GSF can come to learn from the vets and even get a group to fly with in rougher queue periods.

Interestingly, there's a possible correlation to be made between the broadness of the player base and the activity on the channel. Impside GSF channel, at least when I'm in it, tends to be kinda quiet, and when folks do speak up, it tends to be the old hands talking amongst themselves. Their skilled player base in GSF, at current, is also taking some hits. Repside GSF channel is as chatty as sewing circle. Again, a lot of middling and elder players do the talking, but new pilots will ask for advice and the vets are glad to give it. And again, the skilled player base in GSF for the Republic is booming.

So, Nezumi is exactly on the right track. Access to information and making yourselves as elder players more accessible to the newer folks will make them better. But that accessibility won't matter if they aren't inspired to stay in, in the first place.

Therefore, I'm suggesting this. In matches, stop providing object lessons. Start treating the 'scrubs' with kid gloves. Don't just roll over and let them win, but provide them with an environment to learn in. OUT of matches, start providing direct assistance by making yourselves accessible. Start talking with these folks. Start suggesting things. Communicate. Schmooze. Maybe take on a PvP 'apprentice', as it were. Maybe even start a Repside guild directly intended to be a training ground for 'scrubs' to become decent journeyman PvPers. If not a guild, start a channel! If you don't want to start a channel, use the established PvP channel towards that end!

Creating sustainable, challenging PvP for the Republic means you need to stop crushing them, and start investing effort into building them up.

I understand exactly what Rhint is saying and, in the context of ground PVP, I'm convinced he's completely wrong.

I'm mainly a GSFer but did some ground PVP this spring - not nearly as much as GSF, but some. (Used dailies to help powerlevel a couple alts to 50 for unlocks, for example; and screwed around a little bit in the 55 bracket.) I hate, hate, hate 50-0 or 3-cap blowouts in GSF - both being on the end dishing it out or on the receiving end. It's soul-crushing for the losers, and making people miserable is not what I'm about. In ground PVP ... it just doesn't matter. Yeah, we lost, big deal, crap I gotta q again for the daily, hey I got some kills! Why the difference? I think a big part of it is that in GSF it is much much easier to lock a target down and burn them fast, before they can do anything, and have them be completely unable to respond effectively. And then they respawn and it happens again, and then again, and again. In ground PVP the net overall effect of burst and CC is, as far as I can tell, really much much less (I am totally serious about this). You can run around a lot more, you're harder to nuke. I've NEVER seen a winning team set up a camp around the losers' spawnpoint and just cut them down as they come out; in GSF that is completely doable and happens a little too often. It is nowhere near possible to kill someone in one hit in the ground fight, or even two - you have to beat on them a bit, or hit them simultaneously with several teammates.

In short the need to be nice is just not present, because it's a lot harder to be nasty. Lessons from GSF are just not very applicable to the ground game.

I'll also say that in the matches I've seen the imbalance wasn't so crazy as is being made out in these threads. Certainly less bad than it has been in GSF at various times. Sometimes there's a pub team that just doesn't know what it's supposed to be doing ... but I've also seen imp teams that couldn't find their asses with both hands. And sometimes an imp team that works like absolute clockwork and it feels like we're babies reaching for candy and getting our hands slapped down before we're even halfway there. From a completely casual-PVPer perspective, I really don't see it as that big of a problem; it's seemed like there were always decent chances for either side to win (assuming a lack of derp), and I've never seen anyone suggest that we should all just give up and wait for the match to timeout.

Rhint, I love ya (in a manly brotherhood sort of way), I know you mean well, but before offering advice on topics like this it does help to actually have played the game system in question.

Rhodogast / Kelril

Well, yeah, Rhodo, I'm prepared to accept that what works for GSF maybe won't work for Ground PvP.

I can be wrong on any of a number of reasons. Could be mechanics, could be the eccentricities of the player base, but I'm not convinced that two environments that sponsor direct competition against others don't have at least some common ground and can't learn from each other.

I know the republic side can be a bit frustrating at times but in the last few weeks I have been in a lot of close and fun games... Been smashed to pieces at times... And rolled a few... It has been a little more on the even side. I know a lot of people hate the idea of premade teams but as someone who has been on this side over a year now you will see the same players imp side grouped all the time. They use voice, they know how to play and if you want to compete you need a short list of players to group with so you have at least 3 other to count on. I know I group not just with the awesome friends in <republic> But I group up with people outside guild on a regular basis Jax included. This isn't always just to put up strong teams, the people I like to group with are also good people in general a lot Of them like whiskey I actually met imp side back on shein. If I see the same person multiple times play objectives and do well I throw him into my friends list and invite them to play. If I see someone who just wants to death match off node and is only interested in personal numbers over a team win I can give advise but I am not going out of my way to keep you alive in match...that is all

Mr-Heisenberg / Dakhan / Polmos <Republic>

I know the republic side can be a bit frustrating at times but in the last few weeks I have been in a lot of close and fun games... Been smashed to pieces at times... And rolled a few... It has been a little more on the even side. I know a lot of people hate the idea of premade teams but as someone who has been on this side over a year now you will see the same players imp side grouped all the time. They use voice, they know how to play and if you want to compete you need a short list of players to group with so you have at least 3 other to count on. I know I group not just with the awesome friends in <republic> But I group up with people outside guild on a regular basis Jax included. This isn't always just to put up strong teams, the people I like to group with are also good people in general a lot Of them like whiskey I actually met imp side back on shein. If I see the same person multiple times play objectives and do well I throw him into my friends list and invite them to play. If I see someone who just wants to death match off node and is only interested in personal numbers over a team win I can give advise but I am not going out of my way to keep you alive in match...that is all

 

Mr-Heisenberg / Dakhan / Polmos <Republic>

Yep. A good group can turn the tide of pretty much any match.

I can understand where people are coming from when they say that it should be fair. But here's the thing, people can't just have things handed to them, not everyone gets a trophy. This isn't pee wee football, soccer, baseball, whatever where both teams get a trophy. It doesn't work in the mentality that "everyone is a winner!"

Lowbies, midbies (Tier 1 and Tier 2 pvp for those of you that use those terms), are the learning grounds where it will be a bit more forgiving. It gives people time to learn the maps, the strats, what to do and what not to do. Once you hit 55s, if you don't know what you're doing you're going to have your rump handed to you and it's going to get handed to you hard. People need to expect that.

I have said many times, I am all for people learning and helping others learn. But, if I see a potential for a 3 cap, I'm going to take it. I expect the other team to do the same, it isn't personal, it's just how the game works. If you aren't capable of holding it, you shouldn't.

"Just let us have the node so we can farm defender medals!"

I've seen this many times, I'm not going to give someone a node so they can camp for it, because then the rest of the other team is doing the same thing. That isn't learning, that isn't pvp, it's node sitting and I'm not queueing to have both teams sit around on their hands. lol

If people want to win, they have to drive for competitiveness and to WANT to do better. The games I've seen where we lost on rep side the times I've been over there: "Oh well at least we tried guys." "That was okay I guess." It isn't a matter of people just trying, it's that they're fine with being bad. They don't want to drive to get better, they're okay with losing. lol

The saying: "You can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink." applies with this, we can want the reps to get better, we can try to show them what they can do. But unless they WANT to get better? They aren't going to improve at all. These people do not have a competitive nature to try to press for that win, to put out everything they can to learn about their class, spec, abilities, stats, everything. They're fine with keyboard turning, clicking, using the wrong stats, wrong stances, bad rotations, not following objectives, death matching, wearing the wrong gear. They don't care. lol

Because then they won't learn anything, because you have to go around the barn a few times with any thing in life, step in some crap, fall down a few times. A few times around later you learn where not to step and where the holes in the ground are. Life is a harsh teacher, but it is the best teacher for giving experience to a person in anything they do. If people are to get better, they have to work for it, they can't just have people take pity on them and have things handed to them.

Outside a WZ? Sure, if you have questions, ask away, I'll help with what I can. I'm more than happy to help and share what I know. I wrote a tanking guide for VG/PT specifically to help people that play that class to learn how to tank.

But when I'm in a WZ, I'm going to push for that win even if it means taking a 3 cap. If I lose, I'm going to calculate my losses, learn from my mistakes and work to improve. I would expect the same from anyone on the other team.

There is hope...

http://imgur.com/MVy4rvO

I have said many times, I am all for people learning and helping others learn. But, if I see a potential for a 3 cap, I'm going to take it. I expect the other team to do the same, it isn't personal, it's just how the game works. If you aren't capable of holding it, you shouldn't.

 

"Just let us have the node so we can farm defender medals!"

I've seen this many times, I'm not going to give someone a node so they can camp for it, because then the rest of the other team is doing the same thing. That isn't learning, that isn't pvp, it's node sitting and I'm not queueing to have both teams sit around on their hands. lol

 

 

But when I'm in a WZ, I'm going to push for that win even if it means taking a 3 cap. If I lose, I'm going to calculate my losses, learn from my mistakes and work to improve. I would expect the same from anyone on the other team.

I couldn't have said it better myself. I would help you with classes and anything outside a warzone, but I would push into your spawn zone in void star if there is an opportunity to do so.

I'm in agreement up to a point. A bad loss is the quickest means to get people to say "screw this" and go do something else. I have thick skin and even I have my moments. I think if it's a hard fought battle where the other team is clearly trying and yet are clearly overmatched, that's when you should probably pull back a bit. Yeah, you can argue it doesn't accomplish anything, and you're probably right, but sending 6 people to take over grass in a Civil War probably isn't the best course of action in this scenario.

You either want to help people or you want to build a community within Republic PvP. The two are not mutually exclusive but you do have to ask yourself, on occasion, not "Can I?" but "Should I?"

It's nice that people are working both sides of the coin at the moment but the ultimate goal is to foster Republic PvP to a point where this isn't necessary.

I can understand where people are coming from when they say that it should be fair. But here's the thing, people can't just have things handed to them, not everyone gets a trophy. This isn't pee wee football, soccer, baseball, whatever where both teams get a trophy. It doesn't work in the mentality that "everyone is a winner!"

 

Lowbies, midbies (Tier 1 and Tier 2 pvp for those of you that use those terms), are the learning grounds where it will be a bit more forgiving. It gives people time to learn the maps, the strats, what to do and what not to do. Once you hit 55s, if you don't know what you're doing you're going to have your rump handed to you and it's going to get handed to you hard. People need to expect that.

 

I have said many times, I am all for people learning and helping others learn. But, if I see a potential for a 3 cap, I'm going to take it. I expect the other team to do the same, it isn't personal, it's just how the game works. If you aren't capable of holding it, you shouldn't.

 

"Just let us have the node so we can farm defender medals!"

I've seen this many times, I'm not going to give someone a node so they can camp for it, because then the rest of the other team is doing the same thing. That isn't learning, that isn't pvp, it's node sitting and I'm not queueing to have both teams sit around on their hands. lol

 

If people want to win, they have to drive for competitiveness and to WANT to do better. The games I've seen where we lost on rep side the times I've been over there: "Oh well at least we tried guys." "That was okay I guess." It isn't a matter of people just trying, it's that they're fine with being bad. They don't want to drive to get better, they're okay with losing. lol

 

The saying: "You can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink." applies with this, we can want the reps to get better, we can try to show them what they can do. But unless they WANT to get better? They aren't going to improve at all. These people do not have a competitive nature to try to press for that win, to put out everything they can to learn about their class, spec, abilities, stats, everything. They're fine with keyboard turning, clicking, using the wrong stats, wrong stances, bad rotations, not following objectives, death matching, wearing the wrong gear. They don't care. lol

 

, that's going to start pushing forward and winning games. lol People need to work at learning and not be coddled and carebeared along to no where.

 

Because then they won't learn anything, because you have to go around the barn a few times with any thing in life, step in some crap, fall down a few times. A few times around later you learn where not to step and where the holes in the ground are. Life is a harsh teacher, but it is the best teacher for giving experience to a person in anything they do. If people are to get better, they have to work for it, they can't just have people take pity on them and have things handed to them.

 

Outside a WZ? Sure, if you have questions, ask away, I'll help with what I can. I'm more than happy to help and share what I know. I wrote a tanking guide for VG/PT specifically to help people that play that class to learn how to tank.

 

But when I'm in a WZ, I'm going to push for that win even if it means taking a 3 cap. If I lose, I'm going to calculate my losses, learn from my mistakes and work to improve. I would expect the same from anyone on the other team.

I'm a primarily republic player and EVEN I agree with this! I seriously don't think it makes any logical sense not to push 3caps when you can, it's your game and frankly, you can't learn when you're being babysat. Sadly, pubs seem to attract those that are for lack of a better word, "Carebears." People are far too quick to justify a loss with a, "It was a premade," or "it was a hacker." I've gotten whispers from random people that thought I was a hacker cause they whitebarred me and couldn't CC me, or they tried to knock me back after I force leapt into them, and on and on and on.

So yeah, if anything, show no mercy. I won't.

I agree with Bastrus. You can't let them farm for medals, just like you can't let your own team farm for medals. It can't be acceptable behavior for either side.

So how should we approach repairing republic PvP now that we've established all the major problems?

So how should we approach repairing republic PvP now that we've established all the major problems?

Honestly, this whole thread became TL;DR a while ago for Capt. ADD here, so apologies if this was covered... But I honestly don't believe our PvP community is large enough to genuinely support both factions. Even if some of our Imps roll Pubs side as a "main", as Bastrus keeps saying in the WZs, "It's still Imps Vs. Imps".

Only solution I see is literally recruiting new Pubs to the server. (Or X-server, but SHHHH) We can keep having Imps running Pub side to boost moral and help attract people to PvP, but we've already seen a few times where Imp side just goes to the dogs because everyone is on their Pubs....

I haven't noticed imp side "going to the dogs" at all. Occasionally there's the bad imp group but overall, even when in premades we have to do a lot of carrying for the pubs to win.

Ok, I can't respond to that without sounding like i'm either trolling, or being an ***, so I'll stop here.

Honestly, my approach for Pub PVP is simple.

Premade or die.

Only solution I see is literally recruiting new Pubs to the server.

Would the Cliff's Notes for this solution be "find another well, this one's run dry"?

I don't think that sort of slash-and-burn mentality is going to foster community growth, even if you can persuade folks to give up their servers just to come play with you on this one.

Perhaps the solution shouldn't be to go recruit from a totally different server, but to try expanding the appeal to a different player base on TEH. I know RP'ers who won't touch PvP because they think they'd get torn to pieces. I know folks who specialize in PvE who might be able to generate decent numbers in a scrap. GSF'ers could be your best bet; PvP and GSF have a competitive base to them that could find common ground.

The point is, don't look for outside help, help those you haven't reached yet right where you are.

Honestly, my approach for Pub PVP is simple.

 

Premade or die.

It is definitely easier and more fun to run with a group of known, strong players. And I have a friends list, to be sure.

But I don't really mind pugging. It is hit or miss and, yes, sometimes it is painful. But it is also the only way new players can learn. (and the only way I can do my dailies everyday, but that is a different matter). And sometimes new players turn out to be good.

Also, Rydarus , I think your bark may be worse than your bite... I distinctly remember pugging with you

I get where you guys are coming from. Reading back thru some previous posts, there are some that just rhime off things that the pubs do poorly, so to speak. You know what though, there is nothing wrong with that. People are reading these threads; lots of people. And those that are reading them are the ones that know, or the ones that care to know, and in my experiences over the past couple of weeks, the effort all of you are putting intothis is making a difference.

There are definitely Imperial groups popping over and hammering in their dailies and leaving again for Imp-side. There are those that are coming over to pubside and queuing solo and sticking it out, whether good or bad. Regardless of how folks are going about it, they are over here.

Is this at least in part, the same folks queuing both sides? Yes. However, whether queuing solo or in a group, I am seeing other people in each one of those WZs. I am seeing many of them not have a clue what they are doing, but to their credit, they are recognizing avatars from these forums and letting others know that they do not know what theare doing, or at least are responding to recommendations coming to them in Ops chat. It means that they are learning from the veteren pvpers. How many are learning? Your guess is as good as mine, but if a few new guilds pop up and the player pool on the server gets more depth, even by just afew players at this point, then how can it be a bad thing?

What to do next? I mean this effort only started a couple of weeks ago, so I say stay the course. There is another thread on having folks actually focus pubside and guild up. That would be a huge step forward, but I am not sure if its achievable as of yet. Definitely something to work towards in the near future.

I am seeing a pile of recognizable legacy names rolling pub toons during this big x2 XP / x2 comms event. It means people that didn't have toons pubside are working on toons to play pubside.

I am working on a commando pubside and PT impside during this event. My commando is Whiskey'shots. Look me up to group if anyone cares to do so. I won't ever turn down an invite unless I'm about to log or already in a group.

It is definitely easier and more fun to run with a group of known, strong players. And I have a friends list, to be sure.

 

But I don't really mind pugging. It is hit or miss and, yes, sometimes it is painful. But it is also the only way new players can learn. (and the only way I can do my dailies everyday, but that is a different matter). And sometimes new players turn out to be good.

 

Also, Rydarus , I think your bark may be worse than your bite... I distinctly remember pugging with you

Yeah well I figured that a bit of barking in the form of a /laugh or a "U Mad Bro" has the tendency to get people to switch off your healer buddy and come attack you

It's like a PVE taunt!

Ok, I can't respond to that without sounding like i'm either trolling, or being an ***, so I'll stop here.

I've been in matches(yes, plural. As in more than one) where I outdamaged the next best on my team BY OVER A MILLION!

There's no way you can troll me harder than what pub pugs already do lol.

In any case, the first version of this thread is what got me to transfer here in the first place, and I've met a few others who came here recently and are playing pub. So it seems to be working somewhat. Which is good news. Look out for another sage named Risei. Very good player.