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The 5.10 Gear Changes Don't Work. Devs, Don't Be Stubborn.

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The 5.10 Gear Changes Don't Work. Devs, Don't Be Stubborn.

IoNonSoEVero's Avatar


IoNonSoEVero
01.20.2019 , 06:23 PM | #71
Quote: Originally Posted by Joonbeams View Post
No. You misinterpreted. Iím saying for a while as in how long with my playstyle it will even take me to get to the LOCATION: Ossus. Olag was referring to gating of newest items to the newest content areas. By definition, that does not apply to 5.0, which itself didnít introduce new ďcontent.Ē I am saying this is consistent with my memory of things too.

Read my post again. Iím not referring to the time length of the content grind to get there. Working through the story at the pace i do (taking multiple years to get up to KOTET), means I wonít arrive at the location of Ossus (todayís newest content) for a long time now - and probably well after Ossus gating will even matter. Just read my post again Dasty...


EDIT: just to be even clearer. Iíve been able get tons of Odessen stuff now, years later, that previously you could only get by doing KOTFE. For example I have a stack of legacy bound thingies that are supposed to turned into Dr O, Hylo, etc. Iíve had these and I donít even recall how I got them. But it wasnít from KOTFE because I had never done it. Etc.
I'm sorry, but you did misinterpret.

I've never before seen gear that is intended to be used for all play areas of the game gated to a single planet, a single Op and a single boss. That is unusual and as Dasty already mentioned a departure from what is in the CXP system.

- Wherever you play, you can buy mods to gear yourself up to level 65 without any fuss. You can earn credits to buy those mods in any quest, Op, flashpoint, or playing the GTN.

- The minute you hit level IIRC 66, it doesn't matter where you are in the game or what you're playing, the NPCs will begin to drop Outlander gear that you can use to upgrade beyond what the level 65 mods offer. Again, this happens in Ops, in flashpoints, and everywhere else.

- The minute you hit level 70, you start earning CXP from all activities- as Dasty noted in referencing the Dulfy guide - for boxes for gear and UCs. You can run around the game killing random NPCs, or do Ops, or whatever, and you will still earn.

- When PvP gear was a thing it was earned only via PvP activities, as far as I know, but it wasn't just one Huttball map or warzone.

This is very different from what is now being offered, which is universal gear that is only obtainable from completing a very limited range of activities on a single planet with that planet's currency.

And in past situations where there's been planetary currency it's not been "opened up." You can't do a thing with Ziost currency outside of Ziost or use Iokath shards anywhere else., and there are some instances where they eliminated or almost eliminated the ability to earn the currency while not making the vendor items available in another way (ie, the vendors who still take an obsolete currency for companion gifts that you can find on DK).

Ylliarus's Avatar


Ylliarus
01.20.2019 , 06:42 PM | #72
Quote: Originally Posted by Jdast View Post
I made the mistake of opening this thread on my tablet so was able to read this post, but I'll take one for the team.

<<takes big gulp of martini>>

The statement I am quoting is 100% absolutely categorically false.

When 5.0 Galactic Command was introduced in 2016, the entire raison d'etre / point was you could do a plethora of activities in a variety of different places. That was the entire purpose because they knew they couldn't release content fast enough so they wanted to introduce a gearing system that IMMEDIATELY opened up and made old content viable through the introduction of the currency CXP.

The criticism, justified IMHO, was that it was too RNG-based. This was partially corrected with 5.2 and fully corrected IMHO in 5.6 in November 2017.

Now, CXP is almost completely irrelevant outside of CMT acquisition.

Once again, the poster I am quoting is FLAT OUT EMPIRICALLY WRONG.

Take a look at Dulfy's pretty picture of the whole range of stuff you could do when Galactic Command was first introduced:

http://dulfy.net/2016/11/29/swtor-ga...command-guide/

Note her quote: "You get Command XP from pretty much all game activities except for killing regular monsters." And, pretty soon even regular monsters granted CXP!

<<takes sip of martini>> Why am I so good at this?

Dasty
I absolutely agree with Dasty here, Galactic Command, after all the changes and tweaks, was a system that allowed you to gear up with any activity ingame. You could do it through PvP, Dailies, Heroics, OPS, basically whatever you'd like to do you could do to gain CXP. Whatever type of player you were, all the paths were open to you.

Ossus, while an amazing daily area, ended that.

With the Ossus gear the only way to get what you need for the gear is PvE. You can't do PvP, you can't so story, you can't do the other heroics if you want to gear up. Sure, you can go do all the dailies but they've only become a CXP farm to get Command Crates which in turn are solely used now to churn out Unassembled Components. That's what Galactic Command has been reduced to and what all the other content ingame has been reduced to: meat for the Ossus gear grind, nothing more and nothing less.

That's what Dasty is pointing out, that before Jedi Under Siege you could walk any path in Galactic Command and you'd progress your gearing up the way you want it to. Now there is only one way, a PvE grind and all the rest of the endgame content is merely meat for it, it's no longer a valid gear progression path on its own.
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Joonbeams's Avatar


Joonbeams
01.20.2019 , 06:52 PM | #73
Quote: Originally Posted by IoNonSoEVero View Post
I'm sorry, but you did misinterpret.

I've never before seen gear that is intended to be used for all play areas of the game gated to a single planet, a single Op and a single boss. That is unusual and as Dasty already mentioned a departure from what is in the CXP system.

....
Where did you get that this gear was intended to be used for all play areas? This isn't accurate -- and in fact, this is my problem with this gear tier (as I've laid out many times). As the devs have stated explicitly, this gear is intended to be used only for MM GOTM (I'm going to reference my pre-launch post on this which breaks down the livestream.) At ~18:40 of the livestream the devs say that no other content in the game will be scaled to the new tier. Only MM GOTM will need this tier (of course, this has problems for PvP which I've laid out in the linked post).

Unfortunately, without understanding this (and it's been poorly communicated by the devs), the conversations and comparisons to past situations will necessarily be off. Because at no other time that I can recall since launch has there been a tier of gear only needed for one specific, limited piece of content. But it's that part which is unprecedented, not the idea of initially gating new items/rewards to new content areas....

IoNonSoEVero's Avatar


IoNonSoEVero
01.20.2019 , 06:59 PM | #74
Quote: Originally Posted by Joonbeams View Post
Where did you get that this gear was intended to be used for all play areas? This isn't accurate -- and in fact, this is my problem with this gear tier (as I've laid out many times). As the devs have stated explicitly, this gear is intended to be used only for MM GOTM (I'm going to reference my pre-launch post on this which breaks down the livestream.) At ~18:40 of the livestream the devs say that no other content in the game will be scaled to the new tier. Only MM GOTM will need this tier (of course, this has problems for PvP which I've laid out in the linked post).

Unfortunately, without understanding this (and it's been poorly communicated by the devs), the conversations and comparisons to past situations will necessarily be off. Because at no other time that I can recall since launch has there been a tier of gear only needed for one specific, limited piece of content. But it's that part which is unprecedented, not the idea of initially gating new items/rewards to new content areas....
PvPers have been complaining in droves about how the gear is necessary to keep up.

The gear makes other play areas easier, such as anything beyond KOTET which is not level locked or scaled.

Technically a story player didn't "need" 248 gear either, but by having CXP be earnable in all areas of the game, and having bonuses and achievements for getting toons from each class to level 300, they made incentives for story players to aim for it.

If you claim that the gear is only needed for one Op, it's even MORE problematic. They've laid out an entire gear system, dailies and a weekly reward for one Op while providing no incentive for anyone else to play through Ossus and ailenating every other group of players. That's creating the MMO equivalent of the Spruce Goose, with a tremendous amount of wasted time and resources that could have better been spent making a Tier V that was accessible to all.

Ylliarus's Avatar


Ylliarus
01.20.2019 , 07:04 PM | #75
Quote: Originally Posted by Joonbeams View Post
Where did you get that this gear was intended to be used for all play areas? This isn't accurate -- and in fact, this is my problem with this gear tier (as I've laid out many times). As the devs have stated explicitly, this gear is intended to be used only for MM GOTM (I'm going to reference my pre-launch post on this which breaks down the livestream.) At ~18:40 of the livestream the devs say that no other content in the game will be scaled to the new tier. Only MM GOTM will need this tier (of course, this has problems for PvP which I've laid out in the linked post).

Unfortunately, without understanding this (and it's been poorly communicated by the devs), the conversations and comparisons to past situations will necessarily be off. Because at no other time that I can recall since launch has there been a tier of gear only needed for one specific, limited piece of content. But it's that part which is unprecedented, not the idea of initially gating new items/rewards to new content areas....
That is not true, the argument "if you don't do MM GotM you don't need the gear" is absolutely false. For example, staying competitive in PvP isn't just relying pon skill, gear plays a huge factor as well. Sure we have bolster, but that only goes up to 252 and we have 258 as the highest gear now. If you want to compete, you need the gear as well.

The devs have intended for stuff to work a certain way numerous times in the past, but reality proved them wrong. Sure, their intent might have been for the gear to only be used for MM GotM, but that's not what's actually happening in game. Their intentions are being rendered obsolete as we speak. The gear is there and people will work to get it. They will obtain an advantage over others in for example PvP so that will force others - if they want to compete - to get the gear as well. Eventually you'll have to have the gear to stay useful ingame, so what you're saying is false.
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This MMO deserves a revitalization, by receiving more funding, resources, manpower and publicity. If you agree with this, sign the petition to EA and Disney here!
And here is my referral link.

Joonbeams's Avatar


Joonbeams
01.20.2019 , 07:05 PM | #76
Quote: Originally Posted by Ylliarus View Post
I absolutely agree with Dasty here, Galactic Command, after all the changes and tweaks, was a system that allowed you to gear up with any activity ingame. You could do it through PvP, Dailies, Heroics, OPS, basically whatever you'd like to do you could do to gain CXP. Whatever type of player you were, all the paths were open to you.

Ossus, while an amazing daily area, ended that.

With the Ossus gear the only way to get what you need for the gear is PvE. You can't do PvP, you can't so story, you can't do the other heroics if you want to gear up. Sure, you can go do all the dailies but they've only become a CXP farm to get Command Crates which in turn are solely used now to churn out Unassembled Components. That's what Galactic Command has been reduced to and what all the other content ingame has been reduced to: meat for the Ossus gear grind, nothing more and nothing less.

That's what Dasty is pointing out, that before Jedi Under Siege you could walk any path in Galactic Command and you'd progress your gearing up the way you want it to. Now there is only one way, a PvE grind and all the rest of the endgame content is merely meat for it, it's no longer a valid gear progression path on its own.
LOL. I find myself now in this odd quagmire of "agreeing" with Olag, who I almost never agree with, and disagreeing with Dasty who I nearly always agree with, and all over an implementation that I don't agree with .

It's because there are a few convos happening at once. I won't try to sort that out for now. But I will point you to my previous post(s) on this because I think the biggest problem with the new tier of gear is that the devs have poorly communicated (and in some narrow cases, poorly-implemented) their stated objectives with this gear tier. 5.10 gear was never intended to be needed for anything other than MM GOTM. Devs stated this -- it's intentional. Without understanding that, nothing else makes sense.

I don't have an opinion on whether that intention was good or bad (I lean toward good simply if it's true that MM GOTM raiders have something new to do, but I know nothing about anything related to Ops. I like there to be something for everyone). What I do have an issue with is that the intention of limiting to MM GOTM fails when the same gear can be used in unbolstered PvP. No other part of the game needs this gear or will be adversely affected by it - just MM GOTM (intentionally) and PvP (unintentionally, but now intentionally ). And it's for that reason, that I don't as much mind the "grind" (which was intended to be "ludicrous" outside of MM GOTM ops), because I can ignore it, which I'm doing (again, unlike the past -- and with the noted caveat of PvP)...

Ylliarus's Avatar


Ylliarus
01.20.2019 , 07:11 PM | #77
Quote: Originally Posted by Joonbeams View Post
5.10 gear was never intended to be needed for anything other than MM GOTM. Devs stated this -- it's intentional. Without understanding that, nothing else makes sense.
Well, the initial heavy RNG element of Galactic Command was intended to be fun and look how that turned out...

The devs might have intended for the gear to be only useful for the MM GotM ops, but that's not what's happening in reality as I said before. Their intentions are being rendered obsolete as we speak, with so many people working now on obtaining the gear for purposes outside of that operation. It's no longer about what it was intended for but what's it being used for right now.

If you want to stay competitive then you need the gear ingame, regardless of whether it had only been intended for 1 MM operation. And even if that is the case, that's even a worse strategy. Introduce gear to be able to do 1 MM operation? Well that's not very efficient now is it, spending precious resources on developing gear for 1 single MM operation while leaving the rest of the game unattended...
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This MMO deserves a revitalization, by receiving more funding, resources, manpower and publicity. If you agree with this, sign the petition to EA and Disney here!
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Joonbeams's Avatar


Joonbeams
01.20.2019 , 07:15 PM | #78
Quote: Originally Posted by Ylliarus View Post
That is not true, the argument "if you don't do MM GotM you don't need the gear" is absolutely false. For example, staying competitive in PvP isn't just relying pon skill, gear plays a huge factor as well. Sure we have bolster, but that only goes up to 252 and we have 258 as the highest gear now. If you want to compete, you need the gear as well.
....
Again, you're missing my point. I'm certainly not one to argue "if you don't do ops/ranked, you don't need BiS." I don't believe that for a minute. I'm an above-average PvPer and vanilla story altaholic. But I always like to have the best shinies. And we totally agree on the PvP issue (easily resolvable by bolster to 258). To be clear, I'm not defending this rollout (multiple conversations are crossing on different points).

But my point is that the devs themselves, in unprecedented fashion, said this specific tier will not be needed for any other content in game. This is a departure from every other past tier. I strongly encourage you (if you haven't) to read my post which breaks down the livestream, or watch the livestream yourself. You will see where Eric says, modes of gearing outside of MM GOTM will be "somewhat ludicrous and limited" -- intentionally. You will also see my point about PvP -- and this post and others helped lead us to get at least bolster to 252 (it was 248)...

olagatonjedi's Avatar


olagatonjedi
01.20.2019 , 07:18 PM | #79
Quote: Originally Posted by IoNonSoEVero View Post
I'm sorry, but you did misinterpret.

I've never before seen gear that is intended to be used for all play areas of the game gated to a single planet, a single Op and a single boss. That is unusual and as Dasty already mentioned a departure from what is in the CXP system.

- Wherever you play, you can buy mods to gear yourself up to level 65 without any fuss. You can earn credits to buy those mods in any quest, Op, flashpoint, or playing the GTN.

- The minute you hit level IIRC 66, it doesn't matter where you are in the game or what you're playing, the NPCs will begin to drop Outlander gear that you can use to upgrade beyond what the level 65 mods offer. Again, this happens in Ops, in flashpoints, and everywhere else.

- The minute you hit level 70, you start earning CXP from all activities- as Dasty noted in referencing the Dulfy guide - for boxes for gear and UCs. You can run around the game killing random NPCs, or do Ops, or whatever, and you will still earn.

- When PvP gear was a thing it was earned only via PvP activities, as far as I know, but it wasn't just one Huttball map or warzone.

This is very different from what is now being offered, which is universal gear that is only obtainable from completing a very limited range of activities on a single planet with that planet's currency.

And in past situations where there's been planetary currency it's not been "opened up." You can't do a thing with Ziost currency outside of Ziost or use Iokath shards anywhere else., and there are some instances where they eliminated or almost eliminated the ability to earn the currency while not making the vendor items available in another way (ie, the vendors who still take an obsolete currency for companion gifts that you can find on DK).
None of the examples you provided started out offerjng the BIS gear from those activities. It generally took a minimum of 6 months for an update to be implemented that opened up BIS gear universally through ops, fps, cxp, etc.

Ossus hasnt been around for 6 months yet, so expect the expected gate until then, see what changes are opened up, and then see what complaints really have a premise that goes against their consistently implemented systems.

olagatonjedi's Avatar


olagatonjedi
01.20.2019 , 07:21 PM | #80
Quote: Originally Posted by IoNonSoEVero View Post
PvPers have been complaining in droves about how the gear is necessary to keep up.
PvPers have been complaining about how gear is necessary to keep up, but without any measuable statistics or data that support this theory.