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Why do so many people support the Empire faction?

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Story and Lore
Why do so many people support the Empire faction?

SithKoriandr's Avatar


SithKoriandr
12.29.2016 , 08:09 PM | #41
Quote: Originally Posted by vadess View Post
That is an interesting question. I think to answer it though, important to try and set aside democracy = good. Many good things about democracy, but it has its drawbacks too!

Drawbacks to democracy:
  1. The will of the people isn't always the best thing
  2. It is inefficient because it takes longer to decide how to govern.
  3. Depends on the majority of the people participating in it.
  4. People become so convinced of its superiotity, they don't see when it is failing

Now, why prefer dictatorships...
  1. They are more efficient. When the dictator in charge says jump, people jump. In a democracy, if someone wants people to jump, it has to go through a long process of debate, speeches, approvals, votes and then more so if it moves into the upper house (aka senate in a lot of democratic countries), and then *maybe* it gets passed.
  2. When dictators are just, things can go well for a country. For example, the Roman Empire was far from perfect BUT when Emperors ruled well, there was stability and peace throughout the known world. Might have been a fearful peace, and unstable, but it was there.
  3. It does make things easier. I'm not saying easy is good, but it is easier.
  4. Most dictatorships don't claim they're the best for everybody, unlike democracy where most democratic countries are convinced that the world would be better if every country was a democratic one

The last bullet there is why I think my characters, and myself as a person, prefer the Empire/Sith: The Republic and the Jedi over and over betray their arrogance and insistence that they are good and are the best thing for the galaxy, while the Sith Empire is evil. In doing so they put themselves on a VERY high pedestal, where it is a long and hard fall should they stumble. And it makes their own atrocities, such as the Republic with the Jedi's help massacring the Sith people at the end of the Great Hyperspace Wars just because they can and not because Sith were any real threat anymore. Encounters with Jedi in the Sith Warrior, Inquisitor, and Jedi Knight storylines are examples of this.
Spoiler


The Empire and Sith don't make those kinds of claims. Yes, they want to take over and destroy the Republic, but they don't say or claim its because they want what's good for everybody. They're more honest in that regard: Taking over is great because the Sith Empire gets ahead regardless of where the moral compass lands. And when they do make moral judgements, it's usually because the Jedi/Republic have done something in the war against the Empire's people. Given
I actually felt Satele Shan saying "Evil!" was just bad writing. However, if she said they were on the verge of the Dark Side because of their way in the force, I'd by it.

However, I do have to wonder. Now I haven't read anything dealing with this Great Hyperspace War, but it sounds like the Sith were evil then.

So, my question is, why not go in and finish them off? Obviously, it was the right course of action and them failing to finish them off has only lead to problems.

They stop taking on the evil Empire, because they won, the evil Empire comes back. They don't actually finish them off, they come back to get revenge. Either way, you have an evil government coming back to try to take you on. The only difference with letting them stay and regrow is they may not be able to do it in such secret.

I will also give that some morals are a matter of upbringing, however, there are exceptions, which everyone seems to forget. Two constants in every society, is one does not murder or steal from ones within their own society. These are universal, as one can not have a functioning society where these acts are not punished.

The Sith Empire, does not truely punish these acts, in fact it encourages them among the non moral elite, while the moral majority (the non ruling class) try to survive, when not taken advantage of by the non moral elite (Sith) and the non moral part of the majority.

The only bad thing the Jedi and Republic did, was not making sure they had finished off the evil. By not doing so, they continue to have the problem they always do...it keeps returning.
"It's now very common to hear people say, 'I'm rather offended by that.' As if that gives them certain rights. It's actually nothing more...than a whine. 'I find that offensive.' It has no meaning; it has no purpose; it has no reason to be respected as a phrase. 'I am offended by that.' Well, so *********** what." - Stephen Fry

vadess's Avatar


vadess
12.29.2016 , 11:57 PM | #42
I think it was wrong in the sense it betrayed the Jedi principle of not killing unarmed prisoner, they seemed to be killing everybody that was left (men, women, children), and broke the Jedi way of not executing prisoners, and not seeking vengeance. Kinda like the end of WWI and the Treaty of a Versailles: in making Germany pay and really breakfast back the country paved the way for some one like Hitler to come along. Only difference is the Empire took longer.

Also when it comes to factions, I don't believe personally that there are good and bad factions. They're are just a faction warring against another faction. Good and evil are on both sides. I think many of us are choosing to assign good to one faction, and evil to the other beside we are educate to think democracy= good, non-democracy= bad.

Kaedusz's Avatar


Kaedusz
12.30.2016 , 12:05 AM | #43
The Empire is more like a nation state, not an idea. An Imperial fights for his country, a Republic guy fights for abstract ideas/ideals.

There is no ''Republic'' civilization. The Republic is comprised of many civilizations, like the UN or the EU. Coruscant is Brussels or the UN HQ. Dromund Kaas is pick the capital of any Empire from history.

Ofc there are some ideas into it too. For example people on the real world authoritarian, fascist + others ends of political spectrum will like the Empire.

Obviously the Sith Empire is not just 1 people , but the rest are are subjugated and absorbed into the SIth Imperial culture.

It's not only ''good'' vs ''evil'', most of the time it's them vs us.

So yea, that's why people in-universe support the Empire.
As far as the players go, there are many reasons , many of which are already mentioned in the thread. Some of the reasons include : that side of the fence is not explored enough in other Star Wars games + the Empire has better fashion sense and animations + morally gray, approaching evil or outright evil characters make for great stories and entertainment.
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SithKoriandr's Avatar


SithKoriandr
12.30.2016 , 01:55 AM | #44
Quote: Originally Posted by vadess View Post
I think it was wrong in the sense it betrayed the Jedi principle of not killing unarmed prisoner, they seemed to be killing everybody that was left (men, women, children), and broke the Jedi way of not executing prisoners, and not seeking vengeance. Kinda like the end of WWI and the Treaty of a Versailles: in making Germany pay and really breakfast back the country paved the way for some one like Hitler to come along. Only difference is the Empire took longer.

Also when it comes to factions, I don't believe personally that there are good and bad factions. They're are just a faction warring against another faction. Good and evil are on both sides. I think many of us are choosing to assign good to one faction, and evil to the other beside we are educate to think democracy= good, non-democracy= bad.
I don't think it's democracy = good. Non-democracy = bad. For one thing, Alderaan is not a democracy.

The Empire is about taking slaves. Killing aliens because they're aliens. A place where might makes right. Those are generally considered evil ideals.

Also, this is fiction, so there very much is, good vs evil. Star Wars is built around Good vs Evil. TOR tries to change it a bit, because they didn't want people to feel like they HAD to be evil, if they chose The Empire.
"It's now very common to hear people say, 'I'm rather offended by that.' As if that gives them certain rights. It's actually nothing more...than a whine. 'I find that offensive.' It has no meaning; it has no purpose; it has no reason to be respected as a phrase. 'I am offended by that.' Well, so *********** what." - Stephen Fry

vadess's Avatar


vadess
12.30.2016 , 10:18 AM | #45
Quote: Originally Posted by SithKoriandr View Post

The Empire is about taking slaves. Killing aliens because they're aliens. A place where might makes right. Those are generally considered evil ideals.
Know what's interesting? That description of the Empire would in turn make North America and Europe evil. Perhaps even more so if they committed their atrocities while claiming the moral high ground: ~200+ years ago in the USA and more for Europe bought and sold people, treated non-white citizens as archive class citizens and had no problem killing them for whatever reason, and colonized the world by might at the expense of the native peoples already living in the lands they conquered. All while claiming the moral high ground over one another. I wonder if I dug deep, the Republic would prove to be just like that only it uses it very well? Once of the quests on Coruscant is about a senator who bought and used slave collars. All the while claiming the moral high ground.

And of course there is good vs. evil happening in SWTOR. I just don't beloved the factions are the representatives of good and evil. They are just countries/factions going l fighting other countries/factions.

RowanThursday's Avatar


RowanThursday
12.30.2016 , 10:24 AM | #46
A great many of us, most likely, have any number of issues with our country's actions, with our government, and feel considerable dissonance with our alleged leaders' moral choices and actions in many respects. That doesn't mean that we wouldn't feel more allegiance to "our" country, rather than a foreign aggressor.

Most of Imperial Intelligence, for instance, clearly think "I love my Empire, and will do all in my power to protect and cushion her against the greatest threats to her well-being, namely, the Republic and the dimwit Sith."
"... Pointless meatbag bickering."
-- HK-55

SithKoriandr's Avatar


SithKoriandr
12.30.2016 , 11:13 AM | #47
Quote: Originally Posted by vadess View Post
Know what's interesting? That description of the Empire would in turn make North America and Europe evil. Perhaps even more so if they committed their atrocities while claiming the moral high ground: ~200+ years ago in the USA and more for Europe bought and sold people, treated non-white citizens as archive class citizens and had no problem killing them for whatever reason, and colonized the world by might at the expense of the native peoples already living in the lands they conquered. All while claiming the moral high ground over one another. I wonder if I dug deep, the Republic would prove to be just like that only it uses it very well? Once of the quests on Coruscant is about a senator who bought and used slave collars. All the while claiming the moral high ground.

And of course there is good vs. evil happening in SWTOR. I just don't beloved the factions are the representatives of good and evil. They are just countries/factions going l fighting other countries/factions.
Every country has had slaves. Every race has had slaves. I'm sure at some point in the world's of the republic's past, their people had slaves. What we go by is what we have now.

Also, when using NA, when only 1% of the population owned slaves, I'm not so sure we call that evil. While the Empire has many many more, and everyone is basically a slave to the Sith.
"It's now very common to hear people say, 'I'm rather offended by that.' As if that gives them certain rights. It's actually nothing more...than a whine. 'I find that offensive.' It has no meaning; it has no purpose; it has no reason to be respected as a phrase. 'I am offended by that.' Well, so *********** what." - Stephen Fry

AlrikFassbauer's Avatar


AlrikFassbauer
12.31.2016 , 07:14 AM | #48
The Empire, as George Lucas *originally* had envisioned in "Star Wars", is / was an faschist system. You can see it by so many things, uniforms modelled after Nazi uniforms, for example, only humans at work within the Empire in Star Wars, and the letters of the words "Star Wars" themselves (there's an interesting article on their typography out there).

The SWTOR Empire is not that strictly an fascist system, but still full of hatred and bias against non-humans, even although non-humans are able to get their rank there.

What might attract a lot of people to that Empire is its order. Yes, it's an very orderly state, from the sheer look of it. Garbage and junk lying on the streets like on Coruscant is impossible there. Some people simply like "law and order". everything is very strict, very orderly - and it has a so much better overall design compared to he Republic.
Or, as I once put it : "The Empire has style - the Republic has Advertisements." I'm speaking of the Fleet decorations. They really should have used a different kind of colouring for the Republic, because that brown colour they used for the Republic's style-theme looks imho too much like mud. The Empire, on the other hand, has a so much better styling on the Fleet and elsewhere ( Black Hole ! ), compared to that. The "artist's eye" within us might get much more attracted by the Empire faction for stylistic reasons.
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ForjKlahaa's Avatar


ForjKlahaa
12.31.2016 , 02:28 PM | #49
While my heart lies with the ideals that the Republic holds dear, I keep coming back to the Empire. I always play good guys (well 90% of the time) and my first three characters were Republic. I never thought I'd play Empire but I enjoy it so much more. I do play both factions a lot but I prefer Imp. I'll try to list a few reason.

  • I like playing as the underdog where you have to overcome the crappy hand life dealt you (Sith Inquisitor/any alien).
  • I like playing as a subversive citizen who is secretly plotting a revolution. (SI, SW and IA if you want to)
  • I like creating a little anarchy in a world of order as opposed to just living in general anarchy (the Republic)
  • With the exception of the JK story, all the Pub stories are a snoozefest. The smuggler one is kinda funny if you play it that way but the companions are the worst. Actually the consular companions are the worst, I hate them all; especially that snot Tharan Cedrax and what is basically a holographic sex toy. Holiday or Scorpio? Who is more interesting? Is Holiday even sentient? Why does she have to talk like Marilyn Monroe after smoking too much weed?
  • The voice actor for every Imperial class is either very good or outstanding (with the exception of maybe the female warrior). The only Republic voices I like are the the male smuggler and the female consular. I don't mind the male JK. I can't stand Nolan North's super weird, fake voice even though he's incredible in everything else. The trooper voices are old Bioware favourite characters for me (Varric and Femshep) but now it sounds like they lost all personality. Xanthe Elbrick (female Inquisitor) is a superstar.
  • The Sith Empire holds evil ideals but the average citizen is no more evil than the average Republic citizen. The Republic leadership carries out many evil deeds in the name of peace and pretends the darkness doesn't exist within them.
  • The Republic leadership is incompetent and just as trigger-happy as those in the Empire and the senate is corrupt. They make WMDs and don't secure them. They make back room deals with organized crime. Their police force is a joke.
  • Coruscant is a sh-t hole planet that has been completely paved over with all it's natural habitat destroyed so that machines which are poorly maintained are responsible for the air that the peons breath and the water they drink.
  • Coruscant is not a just society. The poor get poorer and live in squalor and the rich get richer. You are not "free" if you are stuck living in the lower levels, begging on the streets while the elite live quite literally in the stratosphere hoarding all the wealth.
  • As you can tell, I hate Coruscant and in contrast Drommund Kass is a natural wonder with it's beautiful jungles and actual weather. I feel so much calmer just being on DK; I feel like I can breath. I'm actually IRL obsessed with the sound of thunder and rain and I have a track of it I listen to when I sleep and I have the ambient machines in my DK stronghold.
  • I like the Jedi ideals of peace, forgiveness and redemption but I refuse to accept that "There is no emotion" just as I refuse to accept that "Peace is a lie". As with any religion, there are zealots that will blindly conform to the dogma they have been spoon fed.
  • The Sith Empire may one day change because the individual is valued according to their worth. If someone rises to power, their ideas can be heard whereas the Republic is governed by a committee of self interested parties who keep their agenda secret to preserve the status quo. It's more insidious and dangerous because no-one acknowledges it.

Basically there is a lot about the Empire I can't get on board with (an authoritarian regime, slavery and the blatant disregard for sentient life), I'll never pledge my allegiance (sincerely) to a genocidal emperor but I think that the day-to-day lives of the average citizen is the same in both systems. You can be a slave on Drommun Kaas or a have your kid brother forced into indentured servitude by the justicars on Coruscant. It doesn't matter what the men at the top are saying if the result is the same. The difference is that I feel like the Republic either doesn't know or just doesn't truly care about the crime, poverty, corruption and racial segregation that goes on in its cities. They blindly cling to their ideals in the palatial suites of the Senate Tower and pretend that simply being free means we're all living in the utopia that they are. It's so maddening to hear these hypocrites spout their ideals when the evidence of misery, poverty and violence is all around them if they just looked down.

Some more shallow or technical reasons:
  • The armour and weapons are cooler. It's not a fantasy of mine to dress up in a brown sack or whatever type of doily the game wants my shadow to wear.
  • The heroics are faster/easier/less of a pain to grind for credits.
  • You can do the bonus boss solo in veteran Black Talon but not veteran Esseles; a good source of solo CXP.
  • In general, Imps win more PVP and take losses better than Pub players. They are more focused, organised and communicate better.
  • Imp PVE PUGs tend to keep emotion out of it. You won't find as many super nice chatty people but you won't find as many sore losers who want to blame everyone else for a wipe. I've seen far more bullying and unnecessary vote kicks in Pub PUGs. Pub players are far more likely to just give up if things go wrong.
  • Juggs hold their sabers one handed whereas Gaudians hold it like a baseball bat. I literally cannot play a guardian because of this.
  • Mercs get blasters and Commandos get the monstrosity that is the assault cannon.
  • Everything that Operatives do on the battlefield looks so much cooler than the scoundrel counterpart. You don't bring fists to a force fight. Punching Valkorian to death was one of the most ridculous things I've seen in the game. I realise knives aren't really much better but they are actual weapons.

But after all that I will say that a lot of Imp players are not the sort of people I really want to spend time getting to know. DK general chat is a cesspool with all those teenage edgelords living out their nazi fantasies. I don't think most Imp players are like this but if you're looking for the dregs of society, they are probably playing Imp and hanging out on DK talking about their Satele r-pe fantasies. So yeah, it's not perfect by any means.

This post is much longer than I meant for it to be so.. \_(ツ)_/
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Bouncy_Hunter's Avatar


Bouncy_Hunter
12.31.2016 , 07:08 PM | #50
Quote: Originally Posted by vadess View Post
That is an interesting question. I think to answer it though, important to try and set aside democracy = good. Many good things about democracy, but it has its drawbacks too!

Drawbacks to democracy:
  1. The will of the people isn't always the best thing
  2. It is inefficient because it takes longer to decide how to govern.
  3. Depends on the majority of the people participating in it.
  4. People become so convinced of its superiotity, they don't see when it is failing

Now, why prefer dictatorships...
  1. They are more efficient. When the dictator in charge says jump, people jump. In a democracy, if someone wants people to jump, it has to go through a long process of debate, speeches, approvals, votes and then more so if it moves into the upper house (aka senate in a lot of democratic countries), and then *maybe* it gets passed.
  2. When dictators are just, things can go well for a country. For example, the Roman Empire was far from perfect BUT when Emperors ruled well, there was stability and peace throughout the known world. Might have been a fearful peace, and unstable, but it was there.
  3. It does make things easier. I'm not saying easy is good, but it is easier.
  4. Most dictatorships don't claim they're the best for everybody, unlike democracy where most democratic countries are convinced that the world would be better if every country was a democratic one

The last bullet there is why I think my characters, and myself as a person, prefer the Empire/Sith: The Republic and the Jedi over and over betray their arrogance and insistence that they are good and are the best thing for the galaxy, while the Sith Empire is evil. In doing so they put themselves on a VERY high pedestal, where it is a long and hard fall should they stumble. And it makes their own atrocities, such as the Republic with the Jedi's help massacring the Sith people at the end of the Great Hyperspace Wars just because they can and not because Sith were any real threat anymore. Encounters with Jedi in the Sith Warrior, Inquisitor, and Jedi Knight storylines are examples of this.
Spoiler


The Empire and Sith don't make those kinds of claims. Yes, they want to take over and destroy the Republic, but they don't say or claim its because they want what's good for everybody. They're more honest in that regard: Taking over is great because the Sith Empire gets ahead regardless of where the moral compass lands. And when they do make moral judgements, it's usually because the Jedi/Republic have done something in the war against the Empire's people. Given
The short answer is that a lot of people would pick security over freedom.