I've posed this question a time or two and it seems that either it can not be answered … or perhaps it's a matter of who is doing the asking.

I honestly don't care either way !!

There is one thing for certain. You can be rest assured that the development team is asking that question (or one similar).

So. I will ask again. If RNG is not the means of acquiring gear... then what method?

Additional grinding? … man I hope not !!!!!

Pieces and parts behind "certain mobs as a drop" ? Still some form of RNG is involved (to a small degree).

What would replace RNG?

IMO.. a small amount as an added bonus would work. I personally agree that RNG as the total means of loot drop is more frustrating (at best) than it is anything else.

This is not a troll. I really am asking this from a point of genuine interest !!

I've posed this question a time or two and it seems that either it can not be answered …

Of course it can be answered, it WAS answered in the other big thread about 6.0 RNG Gearing.

Tokens: different difficulty content rewards more or less Tokens.

Trade In: Trade Tokens directly for the GEAR YOU WANT.

Simples.

All The Best

So. I will ask again. If RNG is not the means of acquiring gear... then what method?

Are you new? Did you not play prior to 5.0? Go do a google search on the SWTOR 3.0 or 4.0 gearing system.

EDIT: Furthermore, have you not logged in to play the game as it is currently? I wasn't sure if you were a troll before, but now I'm certain. Not wasting my time with you anymore.

This is what is on PTS right now.

RNG from Vendor "A" (paid with tech fragments)

RNG from Vendor "B" (paid with tech fragments)

NPC loot drops that are by nature supposed to be RNG

RNG boss loot drops of varying types/degrees of difficulty.

The only gearing system that isn't RNG is crafting, which has its own set of massive problems.

The patch yesterday made Vendor "A" not give out downgrades in gear as it did in it's first iteration.

Vendor "B" is the one where you get your set bonus gear...currently CAN give you downgrades due to RNG.

What I don't understand is they have a version in place, right now, with what's on live, that most people are pretty happy with.

If you want specific drops of specific levels, go do an ops boss and roll for the drop.

Don't have luck there? Spend UCs at a vendor and get your gear upgrade that way (takes longer, but it's 100% what you want).

There is no rational reason, that I've seen explained, to change it away from what we have.

Of course it can be answered, it WAS answered in the other big thread about 6.0 RNG Gearing.

 

Tokens: different difficulty content rewards more or less Tokens.

 

Trade In: Trade Tokens directly for the GEAR YOU WANT.

 

Simples.

 

 

All The Best

Please believe me when I tell you.. I get that. And for whatever it's worth I agree. The system should be simple. But, for whatever reason, it's not.

Use to back in the day:

A player could get whatever system of gear (adaptive) … earn credits.. and pick out what mods we wanted ( or could afford) :

Green : Premium

Blue : Prototype

Purple : Artifact

As you said... we pretty much could actually build our characters as we wanted and place the appropriate mods where they were needed as well as had better control of the stats that our characters had.

NOW !! It's anybody's guess as to what stats will drop. Sooo we limp along with whatever we can get … until POOF ! MAGIC !! we get that one long lost piece.

I agree with what you said.

If the dev team wants to RNG anything it MIGHT BE the pieces needed for complete BONUS SETS… MAYBE !

BTW... just for the record. I wanted this to stick out like a sore thumb so it could NOT be missed. I know that you and several others have been working diligently at this for a while now !!

Are you new? Did you not play prior to 5.0? Go do a google search on the SWTOR 3.0 or 4.0 gearing system.

 

EDIT: Furthermore, have you not logged in to play the game as it is currently? I wasn't sure if you were a troll before, but now I'm certain. Not wasting my time with you anymore.

I feel sorry for you ! I honestly do !

Farewell !

There's nothing wrong with the systems they have employed for earlier levels. They are trying to reinvent the wheel and it's not necessary. Do missions --> get currency --> buy things you need.

Before level 70 you can always go completely without RNG from gear drops by visiting vendors on the fleet. You can purchase mods, enhancements, hilts, barrels and armor. No guessing; you get what you need. Mod weapons. Repeat as you go through the levels. You can also craft these things without being expected to sacrifice your firstborn and use 10000 rare crafting mats.

And at Level 70 you can also avoid RNG:

Visit vendors on Fleet. Exchange Command Tokens for 230 gear appropriate to class and spec. Rip out mods to place in moddable weapons if one wishes.

Do missions. Get UCs or crystals. Visit vendor. Get gear you need for your class and spec. You can also use the RNG in the command crates to get gear but you have other options.

There is no rational reason, that I've seen explained, to change it away from what we have.

Oh, so you mean this is just like every other previous update that gutted and removed past gearing systems to make room for less enjoyable and less efficient gearing systems?

Seems BW is following the same modus operandi as usual, which only means the game will become less enjoyable which means more players will be leaving the game.

Anyone that has been around since 3.0 and later know this song and dance quite well.

Oh, so you mean this is just like every other previous update that gutted and removed past gearing systems to make room for less enjoyable and less efficient gearing systems?

 

Seems BW is following the same modus operandi as usual, which only means the game will become less enjoyable which means more players will be leaving the game.

 

Anyone that has been around since 3.0 and later know this song and dance quite well.

They at least pretended to have a reason with the previous ones.

Oh, so you mean this is just like every other previous update that gutted and removed past gearing systems to make room for less enjoyable and less efficient gearing systems?

 

Seems BW is following the same modus operandi as usual, which only means the game will become less enjoyable which means more players will be leaving the game.

 

Anyone that has been around since 3.0 and later know this song and dance quite well.

Nailed it !!!

I've been around for a long time my friend: since the game started. One of the things that lead to this thread has been... "you know.. I remember when" !!

I don't have the command of all of the technobabble that some of you do! But DO have a pretty good memory! I remember when I could use a green or two temporarily … then get that Moded look that I wanted. Work hard and save a few credits then go get the mods I wanted to fill the slots from vendors at the fleet. Back then you could get "greens" on the planet you were on … (if you needed them that bad) … then get the up grades at the fleet.

I think we're pretty much on the same page!

BTW... thanks for you input !

Heres the thing, there SHOULD be some RNG, just not layers of it.

Look what we have now, you have a change to get the upgraded gear directly, if not you get the components to go get it.

Having a change to get the drop then go buy something that has a chance to give you what you want or more parts to get more chance without any guarantee to ever get what you want or get it so far behind everyone else its pointless, ... is not anything anyone ever asked for or wanted.

RNG by itself isnt bad and should be part of it, RNG upon RNG upon RNG without any guarantee is terrible.

They at least pretended to have a reason with the previous ones.

Even back then when they started their updates that began tearing apart facets of the game I once loved they didn't really explain why they took out 3.0 and the PVP vendors etc.

In fact, personally I was blindsided by the gutting of the gear system back then because of all the things wrong with the game then, i didn't perceive the gearing system as something that needed a lot of attention. I also was annoyed and frustrated because of a lack of explanation behind those big sweeping changes.

Now, they did gut conquest and then they even added explanations as to why they changed it, but it made no sense at all.

If I remember it correctly, they explained the conquest changes as a way to make smaller guilds more competitive versus the larger guilds. This was total BS because in reality smaller guilds ended up with even less of a chance to be competitive in conquest. The explanation simply did not correlate with the results.

That's why it's so hard to trust BW anymore, I mean even when they give explanations the explanations themselves don't hold water.

Heres the thing, there SHOULD be some RNG, just not layers of it.

Look what we have now, you have a change to get the upgraded gear directly, if not you get the components to go get it.

Having a change to get the drop then go buy something that has a chance to give you what you want or more parts to get more chance without any guarantee to ever get what you want or get it so far behind everyone else its pointless, ... is not anything anyone ever asked for or wanted.

RNG by itself isnt bad and should be part of it, RNG upon RNG upon RNG without any guarantee is terrible.

This is the exact point that me and a couple others have made. It's one thing to use it .. let's say for "bonus" material of sorts... but quite another to make it the main driving implementation for the majority (if not all) gear.

Even back then when they started their updates that began tearing apart facets of the game I once loved they didn't really explain why they took out 3.0 and the PVP vendors etc.

 

In fact, personally I was blindsided by the gutting of the gear system back then because of all the things wrong with the game then, i didn't perceive the gearing system as something that needed a lot of attention. I also was annoyed and frustrated because of a lack of explanation behind those big sweeping changes.

 

Now, they did gut conquest and then they even added explanations as to why they changed it, but it made no sense at all.

 

If I remember it correctly, they explained the conquest changes as a way to make smaller guilds more competitive versus the larger guilds. This was total BS because in reality smaller guilds ended up with even less of a chance to be competitive in conquest. The explanation simply did not correlate with the results.

 

That's why it's so hard to trust BW anymore, I mean even when they give explanations the explanations themselves don't hold water.

I remember at one point if I had an extra piece of gear that had mods I needed for something else... I could strip them out and reuse said mods where and as needed. Not any more. If those mods come out of a head piece... then that is the ONLY place it will go! I don't remember WHEN that changed exactly … but it did! Talk about aggravating. Now if you get an extra piece...

1. It's usually bound to you

2. It's useless! Which accounts for the bulk of what you get even out of CC's.

Back to what works:

Keep it simple as stated here:

Of course it can be answered, it WAS answered in the other big thread about 6.0 RNG Gearing.

 

Tokens: different difficulty content rewards more or less Tokens.

 

Trade In: Trade Tokens directly for the GEAR YOU WANT.

 

Simples.

 

 

All The Best

This ^^^ or at the least some simple variant of this !! It's not that hard to understand!

I've often said that there should be one standard currency, call it whatever you want, that drops from EVERYTHING you do.

Do cz-198 weeklies....get 100 units

Do SM EV...get 100 units per boss

DO HM EV...get 300 units per boss

Do MM EV...get 600 units per boss

Go to whichever vendor you want and buy whatever gear you need.

Couple that with the gear trade in system for upgrades that we have...

That system would work. Trade in + standard currency. Buy whatever you want from the vendor.

I've often said that there should be one standard currency, call it whatever you want, that drops from EVERYTHING you do.

Do cz-198 weeklies....get 100 units

Do SM EV...get 100 units per boss

DO HM EV...get 300 units per boss

Do MM EV...get 600 units per boss

 

Go to whichever vendor you want and buy whatever gear you need.

 

Couple that with the gear trade in system for upgrades that we have...

 

That system would work. Trade in + standard currency. Buy whatever you want from the vendor.

I agree with that. I mean that truly would be a "play it your way" system. I don't really see any downsides to it, either.

This is the exact point that me and a couple others have made. It's one thing to use it .. let's say for "bonus" material of sorts... but quite another to make it the main driving implementation for the majority (if not all) gear.

Its ok to use it even for the gear in my view, adds some excitement. It just shouldnt ever be the driving force or primary path.

Its ok to use it even for the gear in my view, adds some excitement. It just shouldnt ever be the driving force or primary path.

Well, RNG is the primary method of gear creation in the current PTS build.

They don't seem to want to move away from it.

In an ideal world gear would be gated by actual content. But seeing how we can only dream of 10 flashpoints and 4 operations per expansion, like that other game that won't be named, we're honestly stuck with RNG and system redesigns to reuse old content. That's the sad truth.

I always felt Ossus grind was getting too much stick from people and that we'll end up missing it. And there lies a big lesson for BW in Ossus and in 6.0 feedback. There is this tendency that the systems ala crystals, that BW intends as supplemental, in practice turn out as the "main way" to gear. It's due to predictability, ability to focus effort towards a specific goal and plan around it. Sure people will hate a drawn out grind. But they'll hate a drawn out grind paired with layers of RNG even more. So in lieu of actual content... I'd pick the lesser evil.

Feels like warframe was a big inspiration. Thing about that game is it pairs RNG mitigator effects and low drop rates with the fact you can roll the dice very often speedrunning maps hunting for exactly what you want. How exactly they thought that would translate into an MMO with lockouts on content that takes a considerably longer time to complete I don't know. Of course the uber grindy vendors originally meant to "fill the gaps" are going to be the new crystals grind. We'll end up gearing by hoarding tech parts to buy as much as possible from the rotating inventory. It's gonna feel great to miss a week just when that chestpiece you wanted for a month was listed. Just like WF lol. Reminds me why I quit that game.

I've often said that there should be one standard currency, call it whatever you want, that drops from EVERYTHING you do.

Do cz-198 weeklies....get 100 units

Do SM EV...get 100 units per boss

DO HM EV...get 300 units per boss

Do MM EV...get 600 units per boss

 

Go to whichever vendor you want and buy whatever gear you need.

 

Couple that with the gear trade in system for upgrades that we have...

 

That system would work. Trade in + standard currency. Buy whatever you want from the vendor.

I'm not certain that I would agree 100%... but I must admit I see your point. It's simple... clearly presented and well for the most part works.

Let me throw this out:

We also know that a part of the new system will include shells that are legacy bound... (and perhaps other stuff too). Getting a complete set would generate "bonus" stats. Is this not correct ?

What if … said armor shells would be a part of the RNG system ( and some other items along the way as well) … Those items (more than likely also Legacy bound) .. could easily be some interesting gear items.

IMO... players as a general rule can work at.. save credits (or new currency system) .. get what they actually want AND use the random components as a bonus (depending upon what area and level completed) ??

I'm just spit-balling here !

For whatever it's worth your suggestion still works. And RNG is more of a fill-in-the-blank-spots … NOT the primary means of obtaining gear.

Thoughts ?

RNG for world mobs, for quest mobs....that's fine. that's standard for this type of game.

I don't care if RNG is IN the system.

It should never be 100% of the system, which is what is on PTS right now.

the people complaining about the build on PTS want SOMETHING that we can do to work toward high level gear that doesn't involve RNG.

That's it.

Coincidentally, it's the exact same thing we wanted at the launch of 5.0

Bioware eventually relented and gave it to us.

Now they're taking it away.

Only, this time, we caught it in advance, as soon as they put it on PTS

They know we don't want it

They know we didn't want it at 5.0

Yet...it's going to launch that way.

They massaged the numbers enough to get people to go along with it.

It's STILL 100% RNG, it's just slight more favorable RNG.

There's nothing wrong with the systems they have employed for earlier levels. They are trying to reinvent the wheel and it's not necessary. Do missions --> get currency --> buy things you need.

 

Before level 70 you can always go completely without RNG from gear drops by visiting vendors on the fleet. You can purchase mods, enhancements, hilts, barrels and armor. No guessing; you get what you need. Mod weapons. Repeat as you go through the levels. You can also craft these things without being expected to sacrifice your firstborn and use 10000 rare crafting mats.

I agree. This makes the most sense. Relatively easy crafting, doesn't take that long to gather up currency to buy stuff directly if desired.

I also agree with universal currency, as someone else suggested in the thread.

Ultimately, I don't really understand the need to make the "grind" take a really long time in the first place. This is a game that supports alts to the point that you can (with unlocks) have something like 50 characters on a single server, so it's not as though you can't go work on another character if you get one geared fast. But perhaps more importantly, there are people who need to reach top gear so they can start being competitive in PvP, or so they can do NiM raids (I think that's the highest difficulty thing, right? not real familiar with raiding terminology in this game). If they make it a pain just to reach what is essentially a starting point for these people, they are making it harder for them to enjoy the game as they desire to do so! And people who play "casually" are naturally going to take longer to get gear, no matter what the availability for them is like and the mode to get it, just by nature of putting less time in.

So I don't really get the attachment they seem to have, to making gearing complicated and difficult. When I first heard about Spoils of War in the first livestream about it (I think it was the first one?) my impression was that gear would be raining down from the sky. I thought they were trying to correct from the failures of 5.0 and Ossus, and were going to make it far more straightforward and easy to gear. And it seems like the details are the total opposite of that! Makes me wonder how I ever got the impression it would be straightforward or easy.

With all this new stuff taken into account... amplifiers, tacticals, etc., and the pace gear seems to be set up with, people are going to get burned out just trying to get gear, before they ever reach the point where they can do the content they normally do now. One would think that with the low amount of new content, BW would understand that gearing should be easier, not harder. Because people have less novel stuff to go play with when the xpac hits than they would in some games, so they are going to feel the "grind" on a more visceral level and they are going to resent it, rather than relaxing and enjoying the new content.

But this game is consistently designed to force you to do things you don't want to do in a way you don't want to do them, so it shouldn't surprise me that's what this susses out to be. "Play your way" is some whopper.

Ultimately, I don't really understand the need to make the "grind" take a really long time in the first place. This is a game that supports alts to the point that you can (with unlocks) have something like 50 characters on a single server...

Right. This is the contradiction of them making it so it's basically a main toon only gearing system.

I guess if they had a low limit of toons per server they wouldn't make as much money from people buying char slots and other things for lots of toons, even though the actual ingame playstyle regarding conquest or gearing doesn't support alt-gameplay anymore.

But this game is consistently designed to force you to do things you don't want to do in a way you don't want to do them, so it shouldn't surprise me that's what this susses out to be. "Play your way" is some whopper.

Again it's one of those situations where you got to ignore what you hear, and pay attention to what you see. It's like that BF/GF that tells you how much they love you, yet treats you like dirt. Consider actions before words.

Hey, no surprise though, right?

This is the same thing that happened with 5.0, the only difference is Eric actually is being very communicative on the PTS forums prior to 6.0 dropping. Sadly with all that communication at best all we are going to get is RNG poured on top of more RNG anyway.

the people complaining about the build on PTS want SOMETHING that we can do to work toward high level gear that doesn't involve RNG.

 

That's it.

 

Coincidentally, it's the exact same thing we wanted at the launch of 5.0

 

Bioware eventually relented and gave it to us.

 

Now they're taking it away.

 

Only, this time, we caught it in advance, as soon as they put it on PTS

 

They know we don't want it

They know we didn't want it at 5.0

 

Yet...it's going to launch that way.

 

They massaged the numbers enough to get people to go along with it.

 

It's STILL 100% RNG, it's just slight more favorable RNG.

We caught it in advance for 5.0 as well. I wasn't in the beta for that, but beta testers have come forward and said Bioware was warned how bad GC was at that point and they were ignored. As soon as miners leaked the system anyone with any math sense was on the forums telling Bioware what a bad idea GC was going to be, and we were ignored. We did get them to narrow rewards down to advance class so the crates were't dropping inappropriate gear, which is why it was a surprise to see that back in the new system.