Rolled a Jedi knight (eventually guardian) last week, and after my first couple missions on the beginning planet Tython, I've noticed some genuine xenophobic and hypocritical behavior that runs directly against Jedi teachings, as either inferred or plainly stated within the game. This involves how the Jedi treat the indigenous Flesheaters and a settlement of Twi'lek refugees.

The flesheaters, as mentioned above, are indigenous to Tython. The Jedi landed and built their temple and training facilities there and have been in conflict with these primitive but sentient tribes for some time. The flesheaters view them as invaders and are acting to remove them from their home. As the story continues, its apparent the Jedi simply landed and moved right in without any sort of diplomatic overtures to the natives, nor any offers of technology, medicine, education, alliance, etc. In fact, in dialogues with Jedi masters, the natives are entirely disregarded as even people because they are not technologically advanced. The solution in dealing with their backlash is to simply kill them, perpetuating a violent cycle that they started.

The Twi'leks on the planet are religious refugees and are already a race that has been oppressed and enslaved for generations. The Jedi reaction to this community is at best indifference. The flesheaters attack the Twi'leks and the Jedi don't care to lift a finger to help them, concerned at the outset only with covering their own butts. Also, there is no effort in the form of relief such as medicines, the means to resettle on another world, or equipment to help them more rapidly build their infrastructure. The Jedi regard their settlement as illegal and encroaching on their territory.

The Jedi are supposed to stand for the freedom of democracy, as the protectors of freedom and the helpless. The order, like the republic are supposed to strive for tolerance and embrace multispecies diversity. We see none of that here on Tython in Part 1. If anything their behavior is borderline Sith in how they deal with the natives and the refugee camp.

If nothing else, you can say the Sith are more up front and honest about their elitism and their gunhand diplomacy.

What do you some of you folks think?

This is a actually similar to some real life situations - but let's not bring RL into this thread.

1. The Flesh Raiders are extremely vicious. The Jedi don't look down on them because they are less intelligent, they look down on them because the Flesh Raiders MURDER PEOPLE. It's not how intelligent they are, it's how vicious and barbaric they are.

2. The Jedi underestimate their intelligence, but this is in part due to to the fact that the Jedi seem to equate brutality with stupidity - while this sometimes is the case, sometimes thugs can be intelligent (assumptions are bad).

3. The Jedi work to protect members of the REPUBLIC. If the SIS = CIA, and the troopers = military, then the Jedi = FBI/State Police (loosely). The Jedi are bound to follow the laws of the Republic - an illegal settlement means that aiding the Twi'lek pilgrims can be perceived as validating their presence, or condoning a crime. The Jedi Order CANNOT do that. Individual Jedi Knights on the other hand....

Why do you ask what some of us think? You've obviously decided already what the truth is, so why bother?

Really though, both the Jedi and the Sith are short-sighted and ignorant. Impractical and self-contradicting. Arguing which side is "right" or "better" is like arguing if cake is better than pie. It's completely subjective, there is no true philosophical or psychological consistency or sense in either.

 

1. The Flesh Raiders are extremely vicious. The Jedi don't look down on them because they are less intelligent, they look down on them because the Flesh Raiders MURDER PEOPLE. It's not how intelligent they are, it's how vicious and barbaric they are.

Barbaric, yes, but the fact remains that the Jedi simply just moved in and made no overtures whatsoever diplomatically to get them to align with the republic or to help guide them into the fold with the Republic and their ideals. If they had sent a diplomatic envoy (with adequate protection to show that violence can be reciprocated) and the effort was met with Jedi heads on poles, then a police action policy is more understandable.

2. The Jedi underestimate their intelligence, but this is in part due to to the fact that the Jedi seem to equate brutality with stupidity - while this sometimes is the case, sometimes thugs can be intelligent (assumptions are bad).

The problem here is that they show all the hallmarks of an intelligent primitive tribal society. They have a chieftan-based social structure, they can make fairly complex tools given their low tech, they show the early beginnings of writing, and they have a polytheistic religion. The fact they turn their warlike tendencies on the Jedi is because the order never even bothered to respect the fact they were moving right in to an indigenous species home. In other words, they never gave the Flesheaters a chance and just decided to mow them down.

3. The Jedi work to protect members of the REPUBLIC. If the SIS = CIA, and the troopers = military, then the Jedi = FBI/State Police (loosely). The Jedi are bound to follow the laws of the Republic - an illegal settlement means that aiding the Twi'lek pilgrims can be perceived as validating their presence, or condoning a crime. The Jedi Order CANNOT do that. Individual Jedi Knights on the other hand....

This does not explain why there is no effort to provide basic humanitarian aid and the Jedi Council is content to sit back and just let the Flesheaters tear them apart. If they don't want to endorse this splinter group just moving into their space (note the Jedi did the same thing to the Flesheaters) and set a precedent that could come back to haunt the Republic later on, they should airlift them out. Basically your point conveys that they're not Republic so so their ideals don't apply, Whether it's the Republic government or the Jedi Order itself. If they want to keep Yavin a secluded Jedi incubator, the best solution, if they care at all about the most basic ideals of their order and the society they pledged to protect, is to help them relocate to another world in the Republic.

Why do you ask what some of us think? You've obviously decided already what the truth is, so why bother?

Because it makes for good conversation.

Really though, both the Jedi and the Sith are short-sighted and ignorant. Impractical and self-contradicting. Arguing which side is "right" or "better" is like arguing if cake is better than pie. It's completely subjective, there is no true philosophical or psychological consistency or sense in either.

To a degree I'm with you on the above, but I'm not debating which one is better over the other, but rather how the Jedi can treat the natives and the refugees the way they do that contradicts their core ideals in such an obvious way. If the Sith were faced with the same situation and didn't just steamroll over the Flesheaters and either kill the refugees outright or sell them into slavery to ease the financial burden of their building projects on the world that's just as diametrically opposed to their core ideals (in a huge and very obvious way) that the Jedi treatment of these groups is.

The Jedi return to their very ancient home world on Tython, dealing with other religious refugees and aggressive reaction from the natives bears very obvious comparison to well-known real life political history. It's fair to point out both sides have legitimate claims to the planet, that Jedi/Sith/Tythonians have been deeply involved in the planet's history for tens of thousands of years, and that even if the Jedi left the legacy of that interference lives on with droids, temples, and Force development.

Regardless, the Jedi do not believe in some sort of Star Trek Prime Directive of non-interference with sentient beings and their civilizations - quite the contrary. Jedi are explorers, diplomats, Republic soldiers and emissaries, so they're not being hypocritical on Tython at all. You're simply misunderstanding Jedi values and confusing them with Star Fleet - they go all over established space and while they don't commit genocide against the native species of Tython, their values in no way require non-interference or avoiding contact with other species.

Tython is a former Jedi planet within the boundaries of Republic space, and even if it weren't Jedi wouldn't avoid contact with any species, especially where there wasn't any indication of anti-Jedi hostility until the PC shows up for training. And maybe it's worth pointing out, too, that the Jedi assumed the Flesh Eater hostility was directed against the Twi'leks because the Twi'leks are the ones stealing their farm lands (which is another part of the reason Jedi avoid intervening to protect the illegal Twi'lek colony).

The Jedi are at worst a bit short-sighted in not reaching out to the Flesh Eaters and underestimating their intelligence, but they're not being evil or hypocritical.

 

Regardless, the Jedi do not believe in some sort of Star Trek Prime Directive of non-interference with sentient beings and their civilizations - quite the contrary. Jedi are explorers, diplomats, Republic soldiers and emissaries, so they're not being hypocritical on Tython at all. You're simply misunderstanding Jedi values and confusing them with Star Fleet - they go all over established space and while they don't commit genocide against the native species of Tython, their values in no way require non-interference or avoiding contact with other species.

I never asserted that the Jedi philosophy was a "prime directive." Note that I cited the lack of introducing technology to them to give them incentive to assimilate. Also I fail to see how the core values of helping others in need, like the refugees and not steamrolling over native peoples without an actual reason other than saying "it's ours, too bad how sad" can be justified by the Jedi or the Republic government. What am I misunderstanding here exactly?

Also, I said nothing about non interference or avoiding contact. My entire point was there should have been an attempt at diplomatic contact before deciding to run them through first and ask questions later. Using your mindset, Luke Skywalker would have still been on the righteous path if he had decided to start killing ewoks because, hey, the Republic needed to gain control of Endor.

I never asserted that the Jedi philosophy was a "prime directive." Note that I cited the lack of introducing technology to them to give them incentive to assimilate. Also I fail to see how the core values of helping others in need, like the refugees and not steamrolling over native peoples without an actual reason other than saying "it's ours, too bad how sad" can be justified by the Jedi or the Republic government. What am I misunderstanding here exactly?

 

Also, I said nothing about non interference or avoiding contact. My entire point was there should have been an attempt at diplomatic contact before deciding to run them through first and ask questions later. Using your mindset, Luke Skywalker would have still been on the righteous path if he had decided to start killing ewoks because, hey, the Republic needed to gain control of Endor.

Except of course the Ewoks speak. Until the one Flesh Eating Force user makes his appearance, no Flesh Eater has ever shown the power of speech. How can the Jedi have been expected to negotiate with a species that seemed to be about at the level of great apes?

As the story unfolds, it's obvious the Jedi Council on Tython is unable to see clearly what's going on - perhaps because of the strong dark side history there from the original Force wars. They misread the Flesh Eaters, couldn't detect the dark side apprentice, the PC's Master gets ambushed, and make painfully slow progress in their search for clues about the planet's past.

I'm just saying, being "hypocritical" means deliberately acting contrary to one's stated values. The Jedi on Tython are blinded, or perhaps distracted by you know, galactic politics, but the game clearly explains what their intentions are, why they mishandled the Flesh Eaters, why they didn't help the illegal Twi'lek colony, etc. I mean, you've made up your mind that the Jedi are hypocritical for some reason, but the game explains everything the Jedi do according to their own values. To summarize what happens:

Except of course the Ewoks speak. Until the one Flesh Eating Force user makes his appearance, no Flesh Eater has ever shown the power of speech. How can the Jedi have been expected to negotiate with a species that seemed to be about at the level of great apes?

Many other creatures in the SW universe can't communicate with words, and the Jedi don't view them with contempt.

I was under the impression that the whole point of Tython is to prove that the Jedi aren't exactly paragons of virtue.

I (personally) find the Jedi to be rather condescending (as a group - obviously there are a lot of different individual members). The order is convinced that they know what's right for everyone, and pretty much force their beliefs on others - whether they like them or not. They're better than the Sith, sure. (Who are pretty evil in either origin.) But are they all wise, all good, and all knowing? Hell no. I was of the impression that this was the *point*.

The Jedi Order, imo are about 95% hypocrites as it stands. They look down on anyone that isn't THEM, since they seem to be the most elitist snobs in the entire Galaxy. Yes, THE most elitist. They put the Sith to shame.

Now, to play Devil's Advocate for a moment: The Flesh Raiders are extremely barbaric, and all diplomatic expeditions by the Jedi to the Flesh Raiders have been met with violence. ALL of them. Also, in response to the Twi'lek settlement being illegal, the Jedi ARE bound by Republic Law to uphold and defend the Laws of the Republic FIRST, even if they disagree with those Laws.

Ok, now that THAT's outta the way... Personally, I'm sick to death of the Jedi's hypocrisy and holier-than-thou attitude towards everyone who isn't a Jedi. There are some exceptions to the rule, but not very many. A "good" Jedi doesn't bother to think for him or herself. They just do what the Council says, and what the Republic orders them to do. They drone on and on and on for Queen Bee Republic until they get offed by a Sith or Bounty Hunter who actually DOES think for himself.

 

 

This does not explain why there is no effort to provide basic humanitarian aid and the Jedi Council is content to sit back and just let the Flesheaters tear them apart. If they don't want to endorse this splinter group just moving into their space (note the Jedi did the same thing to the Flesheaters) and set a precedent that could come back to haunt the Republic later on, they should airlift them out. Basically your point conveys that they're not Republic so so their ideals don't apply, Whether it's the Republic government or the Jedi Order itself. If they want to keep Yavin a secluded Jedi incubator, the best solution, if they care at all about the most basic ideals of their order and the society they pledged to protect, is to help them relocate to another world in the Republic.

This isn't the first time the Jedi Council was divided. Master Yuon Parr has been helping them under the table and I think the JK's master sympathizes with them. The Council also refused to send aid to the outer rim during the Mandolorian Wars because they are guardians of peace, not warriors. Eventually Revan forced their hand though.

Ok, now that THAT's outta the way... Personally, I'm sick to death of the Jedi's hypocrisy and holier-than-thou attitude towards everyone who isn't a Jedi. There are some exceptions to the rule, but not very many. A "good" Jedi doesn't bother to think for him or herself. They just do what the Council says, and what the Republic orders them to do. They drone on and on and on for Queen Bee Republic until they get offed by a Sith or Bounty Hunter who actually DOES think for himself.

Well said! Thsi also shows when you encounter Jedi, as a Sith.

Sure my Sith may be a bit 'unhinged' at times, but if I play on the LS of things, I come across as far more balanced, and compassionate, than any Jedi. They really do drone on about 'the order' and their code, it's as if they've been brainwashed...oh wait...

Really I'd rather be a Joiner thain a Jedi. Honestly.

Really how 'good' can you be, if your trained from a young age, to have no emotions. it takes emotion to live, and to show compassion for other living things. A Sith can be evil, but they can also be good, they have the emotional experience to deal with what life gives them.

From my perspective...a Jedi is really a dude with a lightsword, and no coping skills.

I was under the impression that the whole point of Tython's atmosphere, story-wise, was to show that the Jedi are humanly failible like anyone else, that they're by no means a perfect Order. However, the flip side of that is that the Tython storyline still establishes that individual memebers (and, arguably, the Order as a whole) still strive to improve.

The Jedi can be arrogant, yes. They can be stubborn, they can be short-sighted, they can be jerks, they can make poor choices, they can be, in essence, human (or Zabrak, or Miraluka, or Miralirian, or Twi'lek, etc.). The Jedi Order tries to follow their code the best they can (from their own interpretation), but at the end of the day, the people who make up the Order are, well, people.

To quote a character from another Bioware franchise, "They're Jerks and Saints". The Order has bad members, and it has good members, and it has people who fall somewhere in between. They're individuals, who happen to all follow the same Code, and answer to the same leadership. Saying that the entire Order is guilty of hypocrisy is a bit of a stretch. Surely, some hypocrites exist, but not every Jedi is a hypocrite, just like not every Jedi is incredibly orthodox.

The Jedi moved to Tython after the sacking of Coruscant which happened 10 years before the game starts. Don't you think the Jedi may have tried to be diplomatic with the Flesheaters in that time but nothing came of it. We are given no backstory on what has happened since the sacking of Coruscant and what has happened on Tython since the Jedi relocated to their homeworld.

We may have come upon a plothole here, since there was no mention of botched diplomacy leading to the situation at hand with the flesheaters. As far as the Twi'leks, if the Republic wanted them out, send a regiment of commandos to escort them assertively to a shuttle to take them off world. Even if they don't give the refugees any say in where they're relocated, that's still more in line with the ethos of the Republic/Jedi, and a more believable gray area. There's no real reason to just sit back and let the Flesheaters slaughter them. The Jedi/Republic seems to go out of their way to save what oppressed Twi'leks they could in other contexts.

If they wanted to show underhandedness by the Republic without drawing attention to any wrongdoing, a more plausible way would have been to airlift them out and make sure the ship carrying them has an "accident" after takeoff.

As far as the Jedi writing off the Flesheaters because they didn't talk, it's established that these creatures can communicate verbally with one another. Even if they didn't, writiing, religion, tools, etc. show beyond any measure of doubt that these are sentient beings, not animals.

It doesn't seem like a matter of fallibility here, but just deciding not to follow the most basic parts of their code and ideals simply because they didn't want to.

This is a actually similar to some real life situations - but let's not bring RL into this thread.

 

1. The Flesh Raiders are extremely vicious. The Jedi don't look down on them because they are less intelligent, they look down on them because the Flesh Raiders MURDER PEOPLE. It's not how intelligent they are, it's how vicious and barbaric they are.

2. The Jedi underestimate their intelligence, but this is in part due to to the fact that the Jedi seem to equate brutality with stupidity - while this sometimes is the case, sometimes thugs can be intelligent (assumptions are bad).

3. The Jedi work to protect members of the REPUBLIC. If the SIS = CIA, and the troopers = military, then the Jedi = FBI/State Police (loosely). The Jedi are bound to follow the laws of the Republic - an illegal settlement means that aiding the Twi'lek pilgrims can be perceived as validating their presence, or condoning a crime. The Jedi Order CANNOT do that. Individual Jedi Knights on the other hand....

The Jedi moved to Tython after the sacking of Coruscant which happened 10 years before the game starts. Don't you think the Jedi may have tried to be diplomatic with the Flesheaters in that time but nothing came of it. We are given no backstory on what has happened since the sacking of Coruscant and what has happened on Tython since the Jedi relocated to their homeworld.

i thought it was implied that the fleshraiders never really bothered the jedi that much and kept their distance, thats why the attacks at the begining of the tython character arches are such a surprise to everyone. the flesh raiders never really attacked the jedi until bengal morr organized them into an army against the jedi

the flesh raiders attacked the twi'lek village and the jedi wanted to help but the republic forbid it since it was an illegal settlement. which in a way makes sense. if random refugees who didnt want to join the republic found out that anyone settling on tython would be protected by the jedi by default then everyone would swarm there. the jedis new homeworld would be public knowledge. all sorts of bad stuff.

theres also several quests from jedi masters and such asking you to study their cultural artifacts and shrines so they can learn about the fleshraiders to possibly be peaceful with them. this sorta implies that the jedi tried diplomatic relations with them when they frist arrived but the primitive and violent nature of the fleshraiders probably made the jedi decide to just keep their distance

On the other hand, on Taris the Jedi go out of their way to try and help the Rakghouls (and get eaten by the DS using ones for their trouble, IIRC).

Anyways, the Jedi are products of their civilization (read: not perfect), plenty of other Republic people look down on primitives, especially nasty, barbaric ones like that. Regardless, they didn't engage in punitive action against the Flesh Raiders, when they're clearly powerful enough to do so, so there's that.

Incidentally as to the matter of illegal settlers, I do think it's somewhat amusing that the Senate goes around telling the Jedi what they can and can't do on their home planet to even that degree, but the Jedi clearly are ok with rolling over and letting them do it. Maybe it's Mandalorian War guilt - now they do whatever the Republic asks no matter how ridiculous it is.

How do you know there was no attempts at diplomacy in the past? The Flesh Raiders attack everyone and eat everyone on sight. How do you think any attempts at diplomacy would have gone?

I don't know why everyone says the Sith and Jedi are the same except the Sith are more "upfront" about their wrongdoings.

That is ridiculous. Did you even pay attention to the Sith questing? Do the Jedi keep brutalized slaves that they kill on a whim? Do the Jedi force their students to kill each other to prove who is the strongest? Are Jedi encouraged to attack and subjugate alien races? Are Sith ever expected to fight peaceful solutions? There are Jedi who are devoted to being diplomats. Ar are the Jedi in a never ending struggle for conflict and power?

"Peace is the ideal, padawan. But there is no shame in defending yourself" - Master Shan.

"When something is no longer useful, it should be eradicated." - Overseer Tremel

I agree with the original poster and a few of the others here about Jedi xenophobia and hypocrisy. Without giving too much away I hope, they also behaved that way with the Voss. When the JK speaks to Satale Shan about the Voss, if the JK says that the Voss 'aren't so bad', Shan implies that the JK is being influenced by the 'dark side' (Scourge who is standing right there ). Shan also states that the Jedi don't compromise, its only their way that is right (the light side), so with the Voss being neutral, makes the more like Sith than Jedi.

I've always felt that alot of the Jedi were hypocrits and truth benders if it suits them...you've only to look to the movies. Anakin was expected to spy on his good and close friend for the Jedi Council, yet they pushed him away by not accepting him as a Master. It was like saying we want you to do our dirty work, and be our bish, but don't expect to belong with us. Also look at Obi Wan...and how he manipulated the truth about Darth Vader to Luke. (Darth Vader murdered your father...from a certain point of view.) Mmhmm.

I also agree that you'd think that the Jedi would be more humanitarian and help the Twi'lek people...protect them. The Twi'leks tried to get to know the Jedi with their 'pilgrimage', offering gifts of friendship. The Jedi only went to them when they needed to know something.

As for the point someone made about communication and intelligence...

"The ability to speak doesn't make you intelligent." --Qui Gon Jinn.

i thought it was implied that the fleshraiders never really bothered the jedi that much and kept their distance, thats why the attacks at the begining of the tython character arches are such a surprise to everyone. the flesh raiders never really attacked the jedi until bengal morr organized them into an army against the jedi

 

the flesh raiders attacked the twi'lek village and the jedi wanted to help but the republic forbid it since it was an illegal settlement. which in a way makes sense. if random refugees who didnt want to join the republic found out that anyone settling on tython would be protected by the jedi by default then everyone would swarm there. the jedis new homeworld would be public knowledge. all sorts of bad stuff.

 

theres also several quests from jedi masters and such asking you to study their cultural artifacts and shrines so they can learn about the fleshraiders to possibly be peaceful with them. this sorta implies that the jedi tried diplomatic relations with them when they frist arrived but the primitive and violent nature of the fleshraiders probably made the jedi decide to just keep their distance

I did that quest and from what I remember the Lady jedi that you originally talk to explains there have been numerous attempts to come to a reasonable solution and in fact her padawan was sent there to talk to them but the padawan was killed in an attempt to do so, that's why she requests you investigate the arifacts and shrines to see if they can determine how to reach them.

Now are the Jedi perfect? Far from it. They make mistakes as well as anyone.

also, to be fair. its not a normal twi'lek refugee village.

it is sorta a crazy religious cult that was even shunned by other twi'leks lol