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Thoughts from a Tactics Vanguard (PVE)

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Classes > Vanguard / Powertech
Thoughts from a Tactics Vanguard (PVE)

Kesrik's Avatar


Kesrik
01.22.2012 , 06:38 AM | #21
Quote: Originally Posted by Hirokinae View Post
You dont GAIN any damage, except through the 25% chance to crit HIB, and the ability to use gut. If you're doing the rotation right, theres no way you can keep your ammo up while trying to apply both dots, use HIB, use Ion pulse, and your first stockstrike which will not be a free one. If you're not using hammer shot at all, you either haven't tried the spec, or are probably doing it wrong. and not applying dots asap.
If you actually read my post, you would have noticed I said that you only apply Gut when you've already established your rotation and procced free Stock Strike + HIB. You hit abilities as they proc for maximum efficiency. Try wrapping you mind around NOT hitting an ability as soon as it comes off of cd.

Quote: Originally Posted by Hirokinae View Post
So, you gave up one of the best scaling abilities in the game (Assault Plastique) and 30% extra damage on your dots during execute phase to buff your crit chance? What's laughable is that you don't even put points into Adrenaline Fueled, which means all that extra crit (6% lol) has absolutely no synergy with your spec.

Quote: Originally Posted by Hirokinae View Post
You dont use HIB more. Rather, you would probably be able to use it less because you dont have to use up a GCD on guts periodically, because both specs refresh HIB with the same abilities.

The only thing you gain damage-wise, is a chance to crit high impact bolt, and a 25% chance to get a free stockstrike. Thats it. Gut Simply isn't worth it unless you're fully specced into tactics because it is fully affect by armor mitigation.
What you don't seem to comprehend is that Gut is only used when you have the extra ammo to apply it. Just because a button is there doesn't mean you should press it. What a free stock strike means is that you can Ion Pulse more, which means you can proc HIB more, which regenerates more ammo, which allows you to Ion Pulse more. Just because you can't comprehend talent synergy doesn't mean it doesn't do way more damage than that horrible spec you linked. Try actually playing the specs once in a while, instead of making bad assumptions via faulty theory crafting.
Aitchkay
Vanguard Assault Specialist
<Unscripted> The Crucible Pits - US West PvP

Hirokinae's Avatar


Hirokinae
01.22.2012 , 11:25 AM | #22
Quote: Originally Posted by Kesrik View Post
If you actually read my post, you would have noticed I said that you only apply Gut when you've already established your rotation and procced free Stock Strike + HIB. You hit abilities as they proc for maximum efficiency. Try wrapping you mind around NOT hitting an ability as soon as it comes off of cd.


So, you gave up one of the best scaling abilities in the game (Assault Plastique) and 30% extra damage on your dots during execute phase to buff your crit chance? What's laughable is that you don't even put points into Adrenaline Fueled, which means all that extra crit (6% lol) has absolutely no synergy with your spec.


What you don't seem to comprehend is that Gut is only used when you have the extra ammo to apply it. Just because a button is there doesn't mean you should press it. What a free stock strike means is that you can Ion Pulse more, which means you can proc HIB more, which regenerates more ammo, which allows you to Ion Pulse more. Just because you can't comprehend talent synergy doesn't mean it doesn't do way more damage than that horrible spec you linked. Try actually playing the specs once in a while, instead of making bad assumptions via faulty theory crafting.
Ok, so we're down to personal attacks? I've cleared hardmode EV/karraga's, and I'm progressing into nightmare EV / Karragas with my spec, and its been tried and proven. Before we devolve into a pointless flamefest, I'd like to point out that If you're only using Gut when you've got the ammo to spare, then you're pretty much wasting the main reason you're using the spec in the first place.

You only get a free stockstrike every 3-4 Ion pulse GCD's, and then you waste the ammo you just saved on gut.
My point is, stead of wasting a GCD on gut, you could fit in another ion pulse which has a 30% chance to proc HIB, which would definitely hit harder than a GUT would.
if we were to try to translate that into math.
So with your spec:
1 Ion pulse = 30% chance to save 2 ammo on stock strike + 30% to proc HIB which saves you a net of 3 ammo. (free HIB =2 ammo plus 1 ammo gained from high friction bolts)
30% x 2 ammo = .6
30% x 3 ammo = .9

So, 1 ion pulse = .6 ammo saved + .9 ammo saved = 1.5 ammo saved.
Cost of ion pulse = 2 ammo
Net cost of ion pulse = .5 ammo
We'll also say gut = 2 ammo spent, since it doesn't any procs related to it, and is simply ammo dumped on the ability use.

If we were to use 4 GCDs.
.5 + .5 + .5 + 2 = 3.5 ammo

With my spec:
1 ion pulse = .9 ammo saved
net cost of ion pulse = 1.1 ammo

If we were to use 4 GCDs
1.1 x 4 = 4.4 ammo

The ammo saved certainly is nice, and comes out to about .225 ammo per ion pulse GCD, but the tradeoff is you lose out on an extra 30% chance to proc HIB bolt.
My point is, you're not magically gaining a ton of ammo like you tried to imply, and you're losing out on a lot more.
Which also means for every 8-9 ion pulses, you've saved up enough ammo to be equivalent to 1 extra ion pulse.
In exchange, you lose out on about 1 HIB bolt because you've also burned 2-3 GCDs on gut instead of the extra ion pulse.

So, it would take a little less than 9 ion pulses to gain that "extra" ion pulse, when you could've just had an extra HIB from using 2-3 ion pulses instead of GUT.


The spec i've researched revolves around maximizing high-impact bolt damage while being able to use it as much as possible. Assault plastique damage is Kinetic damage, which I have tested and is indeed affected by armor in PVE. High impact bolt scales just as well as assault plastique, if not better, since it is armor piercing, and can be used at a much greater frequency than assault plastique. Adreneline fueled is a lackluster dps talent, and will save you at most, 3 ammo every minute or so. Not worth the 2 points.
That aside, we were comparing the gut hybrid vs the assault hybrid, not assault hybrid vs full assault, so your arguments there are kind of a fallacy which directs your arguments away from the issue.

To sum it up, if you aren't maximizing gut damage by having it up 100% of the time, then you are essentially wasting the main point of the mostly tactics hybrid. That means the only thing you gain is the 25% chance to crit high impact bolt.

when you take into account the fact that your high impact bolts now crit for about 50% less, it makes it not worth it at all.

Once again, you are losing 6% elemental damage, 9% aim, 9% base damage on your main abilities, 6% base damage on HIB, and 30% crit damage on plamsa, HIB, and IR.

I am simply trying to find the spec that gives the highest dps output. Period. I have tried a multitude of specs, and if there is conclusive evidence that one spec is better than another, I am always open to try out something new, and am not biased towards any. If tactics put out more dps than assault, I would love to use it, since I see tactics as more of the vanguard pve spec, and in all honestly love the gut animation and almost had to force myself to go assault simply because it was pulling better numbers.

Please keep your criticism constructive, and instead of throwing around random insults, you could actually provide numbers and more tangible proof. You didn't compare the specs side by side, and chose to launch pointless attacks instead.

I'm trying to help out our class in general by comparing and debating one spec vs. another. If you want a flame war, please do it somewhere else.

Kesrik's Avatar


Kesrik
01.22.2012 , 12:28 PM | #23
I made sweeping generalizations about you just like you made sweeping generalizations about me. Now that the shoe is on the other foot, it's flaming? Good logic.

On topic: the hybrid spec I've linked is the highest damage of any Vanguard Spec. What you failed to consider in your napkin math is that extra ammo means extra Ion Pulse which leads to more ammo which leads to more Ion Pulse. The auto crit on HIB is just icing on the cake.

Regarding your spec: my point was that you don't even do as much damage as a full Assault Vanguard, let alone a Tactics/Assault hybrid. You managed to skip good talents just to pick up sub-par ones.

There is no need to compare specs side by side. Since there are no damage meters, you don't actually know how much of your damage actually comes from each attack over the course of a fight. Thus, all the +% talents you picked up could very well amount to a miniscule amount of damage. What I tried to offer with my first post was what I've seen actually playing the spec. Instead of being constructive, you immediately resorted to:

Quote: Originally Posted by Hirokinae View Post
If you're not using hammer shot at all, you either haven't tried the spec, or are probably doing it wrong. and not applying dots asap. .
If I don't agree with you, I obviously either haven't played the spec, or am probably doing it wrong. Very constructive. Next time, take your own advice.
Aitchkay
Vanguard Assault Specialist
<Unscripted> The Crucible Pits - US West PvP

Hirokinae's Avatar


Hirokinae
01.22.2012 , 03:50 PM | #24
Quote: Originally Posted by Kesrik View Post
I made sweeping generalizations about you just like you made sweeping generalizations about me. Now that the shoe is on the other foot, it's flaming? Good logic.

On topic: the hybrid spec I've linked is the highest damage of any Vanguard Spec. What you failed to consider in your napkin math is that extra ammo means extra Ion Pulse which leads to more ammo which leads to more Ion Pulse. The auto crit on HIB is just icing on the cake.

Regarding your spec: my point was that you don't even do as much damage as a full Assault Vanguard, let alone a Tactics/Assault hybrid. You managed to skip good talents just to pick up sub-par ones.

There is no need to compare specs side by side. Since there are no damage meters, you don't actually know how much of your damage actually comes from each attack over the course of a fight. Thus, all the +% talents you picked up could very well amount to a miniscule amount of damage. What I tried to offer with my first post was what I've seen actually playing the spec. Instead of being constructive, you immediately resorted to:

If I don't agree with you, I obviously either haven't played the spec, or am probably doing it wrong. Very constructive. Next time, take your own advice.
You have absolutely zero math or proof behind your opinion about the vanguard spec being the highest dps. There are no meters so you "saying" that it is the highest dps isn't true and shows that you are the one making false generalizations. I dont say my spec is the absolute best, i'm saying "i believe my spec provides the most dps, and this is why"

You obviously dont understand the math behind the fact that extra ammo every 8-9 ion pulse doesn't steamroll into an infinite amount of ion pulses. You are STILL locked by the fact that stockstrike has a cooldown, and you are still locked by the fact that ion pulse is on a GCD. getting a free ion pulse doesn't mean you get more ion pulses which generate more off GCD ion pulses, it just means you're saving ammo. What i'm saying is that saving .2 ammo per GCD isn't worth instead having an extra chance to get a free HIB, especially when you factor in that the HIB in my spec does much more.

Considering that both our rotations REVOLVE around stockstrike, HIB, and hammershot, and incendiary round and ion pulse, it is safe to say that 9% damage to 4/5 of those abilities is not miniscule.

9% extra aim alone equates to roughly 4-5% of my base damage for ALL of my abilities in my rakata gear. I've done the math by switching out gear and calculating my aim, then looking at the tooltips for damage on abilities.

6% extra base damage + 30% extra crit damage on our hardest hitting ability is not minisucle, and neither is 6% extra base damage on our most spammed ability.

Like I said, I've actually played and tried the spec you've linked, and it was the first spec that I tried. While I was using it, I found that in order to keep 100% uptime on both dots, the ammo requirement was simply too high. If you didn't keep gut up 100% of the time, it defeats the purpose of having gut in the first place, since GUT and 25% HIB crit are the only straight dps gains you receive. It wasn't a sweeping generalization, it was based off of experience playing the actual spec. You threw out disparaging remarks and insults without even providing any real evidence to your claim besides "you save ammo using stockstrike and then you can use more ion pulses" Thats it. The rest of your response devolves into trying to attack my spec by saying "well the +% COULD be minimal." and "a full assault does more dps" Why? Because apparently you said so.

without meters, its hard to know which of the specs are absolute top. If you look at my thread, I've actually done work, math, and stat tweaks to try to find out which does more. I can't say mine is the absolute best, because i dont know if it is with 100% certainty.

You've already made "absolute" remarks by saying that spec is "the top dps spec" without any hard evidence or proof besides "because i said so". Theres math out theorizing that assault plastique is not worth it in pve either because using a combination of HIB and ion pulse could theoretically provide more dps, especially since HIB pierces armor and assault plastique does not. If you would like me to direct you to that site, I'll gladly do so.

I'm open to any spec, and just trying to find which one is best. Your arguments have had no math, no evidence, and seem to pull out magical claims out of nowhere. I've tried a number of different specs, and will continue to tinker with and work the math on this one for now since out of the numerous specs i've tried, it seems to be pulling the most. If you actually come back with any real evidence to support your claim, maybe i'll even come back to that spec and give it another whirl to try out the numbers.

Till then, i'll continue my thread and try to help out other vanguards who are trying to min-max despite the lack of a combatlog.

shucksy's Avatar


shucksy
01.22.2012 , 04:21 PM | #25
Just to clarify, Combat Tactics makes your Stock Strike and Gut have a 25% chance to proc a buff which gives your next HiB 100% chance to crit, it's not the other way around. Since you get 3 chances to proc the buff between each HiB you'll usually be critting it.

Tires's Avatar


Tires
01.22.2012 , 06:04 PM | #26
Quote: Originally Posted by Hirokinae View Post
Essentially, my problem with tactics, is that most of its damage is mitigated by armor,
Other than Stock Strike, what is mitigated by armor?

Hib has a 60% rather than 90% ArP in my spec.

Firepulse ignores armor (right?).

Gut's primary damage component, the dot is internal damage.

My spam-amble skill, Ion Pulse ignores armor (right?).

Assuming firepulse and ion ignore armor, I don't see where mitigation comes into it. (other than a small amount)

-------------------------------

On a side note, I tried your spec and yes HiB hit amazingly hard. But I felt like ammo management made me rely on Hammer Shot way too often.

With Tactics ammo was rarely as issue. I typically activate all trinkets and consumables and toss a nade, go into my rotation, then blow all my ammo on ion pulse. Recharge cells and follow my rotation til I need to burn or until Recharge is about to go off CD.

With the hybrid build you posted, I found myself OoM (Out of Munitions) a lot more than I was comfortable with. Are you finding that you have to Hammer shot during fights? That should be a pretty big DPS loss.

---------------------------------------

To the other guy making up numbers, I'm not hiding behind anything. I'm standing on rationality and the ability to observe and draw conclusions with the knowledge that they are unproven and speculation. While you choose to take speculation as a fact. Which is foolish.

I may be wrong about Tactics, and the other guy may be wrong about the hybrid spec.

Then again we all may need to re-roll when/if they put out some type of combat log. However, I'm not going to pretend what I believe is LAW when I have no PROOF. You can, that is fine. But it makes you look all the more foolish.

grandmasterub's Avatar


grandmasterub
01.22.2012 , 07:28 PM | #27
Quote: Originally Posted by Hirokinae View Post
I'm trying to help out our class in general by comparing and debating one spec vs. another. If you want a flame war, please do it somewhere else.
Actually with your constant attacking of others ideas youre actually doing a disservice to the class. Letting other people try something besides what has worked for you could yield better results.

Did you try the spec we've all posted? More than once? in all environments?

If not then since we dont have damage parsers please just politely give comparisons and dont flame us. aka CHILL BRO
___________________________________

on topic has anyone tried the spec i linked except using high energy cell? does the ammo regen on HEC make it more plausible to keep both gut and incendiary rolling 100%?

http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#80...MorcoZbIbrzh.1


...and yes i know you waste 3 points in assault on the boost to plasma cell's proc rate. blame bioware for poor skill tree design.
Rhaegar - Jedi Shadow Hyperspace Cannon
Trooperdude - Vanguard Hyperspace Cannon

All WZ Players Please Read

Kesrik's Avatar


Kesrik
01.23.2012 , 12:15 AM | #28
Quote: Originally Posted by grandmasterub View Post
on topic has anyone tried the spec i linked except using high energy cell? does the ammo regen on HEC make it more plausible to keep both gut and incendiary rolling 100%?

http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#80...MorcoZbIbrzh.1


...and yes i know you waste 3 points in assault on the boost to plasma cell's proc rate. blame bioware for poor skill tree design.
That might actually work, since HEC buffs both your dots. However, heat management isn't really an issue even with full Assault Spec. You apply a 6 second dot with Ion Pulse. When you use hammer shot, you apply a new instance of the 6 second dot, while also refreshing the duration of the original dot. Thus, Hammer Shot isn't as big of a DPS loss as everyone thinks.
Aitchkay
Vanguard Assault Specialist
<Unscripted> The Crucible Pits - US West PvP

Cordo's Avatar


Cordo
01.23.2012 , 09:16 AM | #29
Interesting discussion... I hope that when it's all said and done, we will find a build that seems to work really awesome for DPS with our 'guards

grandmasterub's Avatar


grandmasterub
01.23.2012 , 12:18 PM | #30
Quote: Originally Posted by Cordo View Post
Interesting discussion... I hope that when it's all said and done, we will find a build that seems to work really awesome for DPS with our 'guards
If youre refering to wz guarding I prefer the 8/31/2 build running ion cell. In line 2 of SS I put points in the ioncell proc on ss and ioncell 2sec slow instead of aim
Rhaegar - Jedi Shadow Hyperspace Cannon
Trooperdude - Vanguard Hyperspace Cannon

All WZ Players Please Read