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Thoughts from a Tactics Vanguard (PVE)

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Classes > Vanguard / Powertech
Thoughts from a Tactics Vanguard (PVE)

Hirokinae's Avatar


Hirokinae
01.20.2012 , 01:26 AM | #11
Interesting thread. I'm 5/5 HM EV myself as a hybrid assault/tactics vanguard, and have found tactics to be a little lacking. Dont get me wrong, it is still a viable spec in the hands of the right player, however i've found that against the spec I am using, it is rather lackluster. refer to my thread if you want to check out my spec.

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=161399

Essentially, my problem with tactics, is that most of its damage is mitigated by armor, where almost all of the damage done by assault punches through it. I'd like to note however, that tactics is VERY ammo friendly. The main upside is that its ammo consumption is much less strict that assault's, but the tradeoff is that the potential for damage isn't up to par.

Comparing the two side by side:

The main advantage a hybrid assault has over tactics, is that High impact bolt hits harder than any ability that tactics has. period. It also pierces through armor, which gives it a further advantage. It is refreshed by both stockstrike and ion pulse, meaning the only ability that could give HIB a run for its money: Fire pulse, simply cannot be used as often and still doesn't hit as hard.

Tactics makes your stockstrikes crit 30% harder, but is offset by the "assault trooper" ability.

When we compare Gut vs Incendiary Round, IR wins out hands down. Gut is FULLY affected by armor, and does less damage overall than incendiary round, while IR fully bypasses armor, and does as much base damage as gut 15 seconds even with gut talented.

The main thing tactics has over assault, is the ability to crit high impact bolt. However, 25% to proc isn't too amazing, and with crit levels reaching 30% + in columi gear, its usefulness is good, but offset by the fact that Assault's HIB crits harder, does more base damage, and can be refreshed.

One very very positive aspect of tactics, is that Pulse Generator makes it the better aoe spec hands down. There is no getting around that tactics aoe with pulse generator, tactical tools, is much, much better than assault's.

Also, although you CAN still move of melee and still do good damage, being out of melee for any extended period of time (chasing down soa and mind traps, running from lightning orbs) (Running away from Gharj's Frenzy and transitions) etc. causes a HUGE dps loss from not being able to use stockstrike, and not being able to refresh gut also means you might be unable to hit high impact bolt

that being said, i find tactics to still be a very viable dps spec, and still do very good dps. However, my experience with both specs while raiding makes me lean heavily in favor of assault as having a higher output, with more leeway in being ranged.
The one fight i have been able to judge my dps on, is the 4th EV boss; the council fight. I started assault on that fight, and killed my add first by a good 3-4%. When i switched to tactics the following week, i finished a good 5-6% behind the fastest person. Same raid, same people.

I believe tactics does need a bit of tweaking, and I see tactics as what SHOULD be our pve dps spec, but as is, needs work.

The poster above who says that tactics is our pvp spec has no idea what they are talking about. It simply does not have the burst that assault does. a Assault spec with Assault plastique, high impact bolts, and plasma cell ticks provides more burst than tactics ever could. Sure, tactics has more mobility, but thats only because it NEEDS to be in melee to put out any sort of damage. Assault can open up with its hardest burst sittin 30 meters away before closing in for the finish.

Mhak's Avatar


Mhak
01.20.2012 , 01:35 AM | #12
Tires, buddy...

Tactics and the counterpart Advanced Prototype are not the PvE dps trees. They do far, far less DPS than Assault Specialist/Pyrotech respectively. Far less. Not a little less. Far. Less.

Before you go hide behind your shield of "NO COMBAT LOGS YET, YOU CAN'T PROVE IT NYANYA", hear me out. Anybody who has tested both those specs in a controlled PvE endgame scenario - say someone like me on the Council fight in EV having timed how long it took to down to down the same council member twice, once as each spec - along with anybody who's simply tested both of them offhandedly in HMs, will all tell you the same thing. That thing is "Tactics and Advanced Prototype do nowhere near the damage of Assault Specialist/Pyrotech in any scenario."

I'd estimate around 20-30% less sustained DPS in PvE situations. PvP the fights are so quick and sporadic that it plays favorably into Tactics/AP's hands, although *still* the damage is way less, just not so massively noticeable as in PvE raids.

grandmasterub's Avatar


grandmasterub
01.20.2012 , 01:40 PM | #13
Quote: Originally Posted by Hirokinae View Post
Interesting thread. I'm 5/5 HM EV myself as a hybrid assault/tactics vanguard, and have found tactics to be a little lacking. Dont get me wrong, it is still a viable spec in the hands of the right player, however i've found that against the spec I am using, it is rather lackluster. refer to my thread if you want to check out my spec.

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=161399
wouldn't this yield more or better dps while providing better ammo regeneration?

http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#801ZMsrrobcoZfG0rzG.1

you might even be able to move 2 points from recharge cells to either ST increase HiB damage, or pulse generator in TT
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marchesq's Avatar


marchesq
01.20.2012 , 05:04 PM | #14
I'll be honest with you. I think it is almost impossible to be effective in PVE raids as tactics. You have to get really close to mobs that punish you for being melee.

I lov tactics in PVP, but PVE it's not as effective.
Quote: Originally Posted by TheBBP View Post
Trooper by day, lover by night, free by the grace of The Maker.

Hirokinae's Avatar


Hirokinae
01.21.2012 , 05:23 PM | #15
Quote: Originally Posted by grandmasterub View Post
wouldn't this yield more or better dps while providing better ammo regeneration?

http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#801ZMsrrobcoZfG0rzG.1

you might even be able to move 2 points from recharge cells to either ST increase HiB damage, or pulse generator in TT
No. It does the exact opposite. It makes it so that you have to put up both gut and incendiary round, meaning thats 5 ammo right off the bat which puts you below 8. In addition it means you can't HIB right after cause that will gimp your ammo even further. 1 High impact bolt does more damage instantly than a single gut + its bleed, with 1 ammo cost, in addition to potentially having no ammo cost. So if you take that into consideration, all you gain is a CHANCE to crit HIB, and potential free stockstrike. That ability is also wasted because normally you want to use that with a fire pulse build for the 100% free stockstrike.

You LOSE 9% damage on almost all of your abilities, 30% crit damage on your hardest hitting abilities, 9% aim, 6% HIB damage, 6% elemental damage.

absolutely not worth it.

Kesrik's Avatar


Kesrik
01.21.2012 , 06:25 PM | #16
Quote: Originally Posted by Hirokinae View Post
No. It does the exact opposite. It makes it so that you have to put up both gut and incendiary round, meaning thats 5 ammo right off the bat which puts you below 8. In addition it means you can't HIB right after cause that will gimp your ammo even further. 1 High impact bolt does more damage instantly than a single gut + its bleed, with 1 ammo cost, in addition to potentially having no ammo cost. So if you take that into consideration, all you gain is a CHANCE to crit HIB, and potential free stockstrike. That ability is also wasted because normally you want to use that with a fire pulse build for the 100% free stockstrike.

You LOSE 9% damage on almost all of your abilities, 30% crit damage on your hardest hitting abilities, 9% aim, 6% HIB damage, 6% elemental damage.

absolutely not worth it.
The spec he linked actually does incredible sustained damage. You almost never have to press Hammer Shot, so you end up proccing HIB a lot more. Your HIBs don't hit as hard, BUT you throw out a lot more of them.

Also, you regenerate ammo while using your abilities. In the 3 seconds (2 globals) it takes you to apply both your dots, you've regenerated 1.8 ammo (.6 ammo/sec). In practice, you would only apply gut once you've established your proc rotation and have both free stock strike and HIB coming up.

I would take points out of Rapid Recharge since you almost never have ammo problems even while never hammer shotting.
Aitchkay
Vanguard Assault Specialist
<Unscripted> The Crucible Pits - US West PvP

Hirokinae's Avatar


Hirokinae
01.21.2012 , 07:39 PM | #17
You dont GAIN any damage, except through the 25% chance to crit HIB, and the ability to use gut. If you're doing the rotation right, theres no way you can keep your ammo up while trying to apply both dots, use HIB, use Ion pulse, and your first stockstrike which will not be a free one. If you're not using hammer shot at all, you either haven't tried the spec, or are probably doing it wrong. and not applying dots asap. Also, compared to my spec

http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#801hMhZMsMZfI0bkGhM.1

You dont use HIB more. Rather, you would probably be able to use it less because you dont have to use up a GCD on guts periodically, because both specs refresh HIB with the same abilities.

The only thing you gain damage-wise, is a chance to crit high impact bolt, and a 25% chance to get a free stockstrike. Thats it. Gut Simply isn't worth it unless you're fully specced into tactics because it is fully affect by armor mitigation.

grandmasterub's Avatar


grandmasterub
01.21.2012 , 09:54 PM | #18
Quote: Originally Posted by Hirokinae View Post
Gut Simply isn't worth it unless you're fully specced into tactics because it is fully affect by armor mitigation.
most of guts damage comes from bleed which is internal and is uneffected by armor...
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thepowerforce's Avatar


thepowerforce
01.21.2012 , 10:39 PM | #19
I think by far shield is the best

Hirokinae's Avatar


Hirokinae
01.22.2012 , 05:45 AM | #20
Quote: Originally Posted by grandmasterub View Post
most of guts damage comes from bleed which is internal and is uneffected by armor...
The initial damage is kinetic which is reduced by armor. Thats a little less than half the damage. My main point however, is that what you're giving up damage-wise isn't worth being able to pick up gut and a 25% chance to crit high impact bolt.

your gains are: Gut; 25% chance to crit HIB

Losses:
9% damage from HIB, hammershot, stockstrock, fullauto;
30% increased crit damage from HIB, plasma cell, incendiary round
6% high impact bolt damage
6% elemental damage
9% AIM

Sure you gain a little bit of utility, but for PVE raiding dps, the utility is almost useless, and the only thing remotely useful is the 2% damage reduction.