Um. Why do you guys think they are dancing to the fanbase's tune in the first place?(Well, besides the obvious human tendency to believe one's self-importance into gigantic hot air balloon every time a chance presents itself. "Oooooh, the writers listen to our wishes, we're so like totally matter, we have da powar". Stop and think for a second, will us all? Everybody dunked on that Galactic Grind mechanics as soon as it happened, did it go away? Nope! Was it even the first thing audience hated? No! Did they ever change anything because of negative feedback? Nuh-uh! Should have if opinion of the fans is so important, yet it did not. So if gameplay designers do not listen to popular opinions, what makes you think writers do, eh? Deaths of this or that? Isn't it more plausible that the writers have the outline of the story, they know which character has a future and which has not and in case of the latter, then maybe write a death as a possible option because -- again, with fanfares! -- it will not matter in the long run and can be used to make some drama, and nothing makes some easy instant drama as a death. So no, guys. We do not matter much besides the obvious "how much money we're ready to spend on it" reason.

Now, before we derail this thread into yet another never ending whine of self-pity and "NO U!" where each iteration is more boring and repetitive than previous one, how about we make fun of that nonsensical traitor arc like the tosser deserves? Like, we can:

† Invent jokes ("So Master Sumalee, Darth Baras and Theron's boss walk into the bar on Nathema...")

† Come up with outlandish motivations for unlikely people (like Vallllssss. My contribution: Theron plainly charmed the pants off him. Search your feelings, you know it's true )

† Speculate on the haircut (Seriously. When trying to hide, you'd want to make yourself forgettable, which should be hard when people take a look at you and think "Here goes the guy who let his twelve year old kid do his hair")

† Why did Forceys only choked Theron a little and then let go? Forgot to charge the battery before leaving, no sockets on the train and the choker died on them?

So much potential here, come on!

P.S.: Yesterday I auctioned Vinn Atrius holo on GTN for 5 credits, because dude's worthless garbage and so is his holo. Today I received the GTN mail with 25 creds attached. He's such a piece of trash that GTN pays you back five times just to get rid of him :D

After reading some posts, I say what I really think about what writes should do.

 

They should stop listening to players, and they should have never done it in the first place. I've heard often that listening to fans if Biowares strength. I say it is their weakness, and it has been with every game they have made after DAO. That is when they let people put their noses in what happens in the story, and I never liked the results.

 

Writers are responsible for the story, and it is not a democracy. They shouldn't act like it is.

 

Players don't know what they want (here I don't speak about game play mechanics, I speak about story content). They change their minds. They follow the hive mind. They are contrarians just to be ones. Today they want this, and tomorrow they want that. Every singe one of them want different things.

 

I can't phatom why writers let players to dictate what happens in the story. It is their job to write it. Only they know what direction the story is going to have in the future. I also can't phatom why players can't accept the story as the creators of the story make it, and keep demanding something different. This is a huge reason why we are having so damn bad writing now. When writers don't have spine to stay true to themselves and their story, they are constantly making decisions that will make their job even harder.

 

What makes sense to players doesn't matter. What they want to do with any given companion doesn't matter. Writers should stop trying to please the players. And this definitely includes all "choice matters" people. Choice is irrelevant. Every choice you make in your story is an illusion, if the story itself doesn't change fundamentally because of it. It doesn't matter if Vette or Torian dies. It just means there will never be a future where Vette or Torian will have any meaningful part in future story. I might like to exile Kaliyo, but I also recognise that this choice means that people who like her or romanced her will never experience a future where she has a bigger part in the story. Two years from now there might have been a good opportunity to include her in the main story again. Nope, because she isn't in everyones story anymore.

 

People who write for SWTOR are professional writers. They trained to be writers. They probably have a degree in it. They probably love writing and wanted to do it for living for that reason. When I blame them from this mess and swear at them for creating it in the first place, I still recognise that they are professional writers and I am not. I do respect them, a lot. Writing isn't the easiest job to have. You can't write without putting something of yourself into it. But yielding to fans demands of this and that you stop taking the responsibility of your writing. Eventually you paint yourself in the corner. Writing for an MMO is tricky because the story is constantly evolving. SWTOR in itself is tricky because it's story is complicated. Letting players dictate what will happen in it makes it just worse.

 

Or course, it is too late now to fix this. I just had to say this as I see it. They started to listen to players long ago and now we are in this mess. Every new part of the story will be more buggy nonsense than the last one. More companions will disappear, and more new ones will be pushed on us. Every time a new character is introduced, someone wants them as a companion. Writers listen to them, more buggy nonsense will follow. It is an endless spiral down.

I am sorry but I disagree with this black & white way of seeing things.

Writers have to listen to the player base and potentially adapt to what they want. But not blindly. Their job is to create something consistent within the scope of what most people will be interested in. The job of all the people involved in the game is to build it so that it fits a target and deliver what their core audiance (or the one they want to have) want. It does not mean that they have to listen to all the nonesense, though. In an ideal world where there is no financial constraints, writers could do what they want and don't care if they have a public. In another one, they could even provide all possible ways to solve a situation because they then have the resources to provide a logical follow up to all stories that have become possible. The problem is that we are not in any of these ideal situations. Writers probably get guidelines, are pushed in a direction by marketeers, are potentially limited by game design, game mechanics, code... and first and foremost financial resources. What matters is what they choose in the scope of this situation and that is where things get complex because they have to keep a certain player base in order for the game to remain. If they lose too much, it's over. That often means that compromises have to be made, and compromises are never good.

And by deciding to create a MMO, they probably knew what they would be exposed to. The job of people at BW that are involved in the storyline development would be to know to what they should say yes and to what they should say no. It is impossible to please everyone, and for every single player complaining on a forum, there are probably at least 10 that are not and are fine with what they get. The job of these people is as well to rationalise all this and make the best choices they can. All responsibility cannot be put on the players.

I'm not working in this industry, but as a marketeer in another field of business, I get my share of dumb requests. Trust me, I've used the sentence "People want that? Oh yeah? Fine. How many of them really do?" a hell of a lot. Part of my job is to sort the requests I get, analyse them, agree with some and kill others, explaining why I do so and standing my ground until someone can convince me that I was wrong (or force me to do it anyway, ,lol).

Now, on the other hand, I really have a hard time understanding people being so virulent about choices made, or not made. I mean... this is a game. If we are unhappy about it, we stop paying and leave, see if the grass is greener somewhere else (which, we usually found out, is not the case).

I'd love to have much more options possible for every part of the storyline because it would make so much more sense. I know it is wishful thinking and deal with it. I still have fun and guess that I have reasonably levelled my skill of suspension of disbelief. How critical is this in the end? Thiis is not real life and we are not bound to the game and forced to pay and play it. Yes, some is frustrating, yes, it is unnerving to have a favourite character going in a direction we do not want it to, yes, it may kill our enjoyment... but it still only a game.

† Come up with outlandish motivations for unlikely people (like Vallllssss. My contribution: Theron plainly charmed the pants off him. Search your feelings, you know it's true )

Oh yeah! I knew it!! His "He will prevail!" constant claim always sounded like he was declaring his inconditionnal love to Theron. And the tone he uses when he talks to him before ("Victory isn't my fate, Theron, it's yours!").

What makes sense to players doesn't matter. What they want to do with any given companion doesn't matter. Writers should stop trying to please the players. And this definitely includes all "choice matters" people. Choice is irrelevant. Every choice you make in your story is an illusion, if the story itself doesn't change fundamentally because of it. It doesn't matter if Vette or Torian dies. It just means there will never be a future where Vette or Torian will have any meaningful part in future story.

This guy gets it.

† Invent jokes ("So Master Sumalee, Darth Baras and Theron's boss walk into the bar on Nathema...")

I don't get it.

P.S.: Yesterday I auctioned Vinn Atrius holo on GTN for 5 credits, because dude's worthless garbage and so is his holo. Today I received the GTN mail with 25 creds attached. He's such a piece of trash that GTN pays you back five times just to get rid of him :D

That sounds like an exploit. You'd need some patience, but still...

Now, before we derail this thread into yet another never ending whine of self-pity and "NO U!" where each iteration is more boring and repetitive than previous one, how about we make fun of that nonsensical traitor arc like the tosser deserves? Like, we can:

 

† Invent jokes ("So Master Sumalee, Darth Baras and Theron's boss walk into the bar on Nathema...")

 

† Come up with outlandish motivations for unlikely people (like Vallllssss. My contribution: Theron plainly charmed the pants off him. Search your feelings, you know it's true )

 

† Speculate on the haircut (Seriously. When trying to hide, you'd want to make yourself forgettable, which should be hard when people take a look at you and think "Here goes the guy who let his twelve year old kid do his hair")

 

† Why did Forceys only choked Theron a little and then let go? Forgot to charge the battery before leaving, no sockets on the train and the choker died on them?

 

So much potential here, come on!

 

P.S.: Yesterday I auctioned Vinn Atrius holo on GTN for 5 credits, because dude's worthless garbage and so is his holo. Today I received the GTN mail with 25 creds attached. He's such a piece of trash that GTN pays you back five times just to get rid of him :D

I'm in! Apologies already now on really bad jokes, english is not my first language.

† Invent jokes:

Why was Umbara flashpoint the way it was? Because Charles asked Keith what kind of flashpoint he wants and Keith told him "Do what you wish as long as you don't lose the train of thought"

Commander after Umbara flashpoint: "Theron dumped me. It was such a train wreck!"

† Speculate on the haircut - Haircut was the real reason Theron didn't contact us sooner. It was too late when Theron realized this haircut was not cool but ridiculous. Originally he was gonna reveal things to commander right after Umbara show but haircut was the reason he avoided any contact with her. On Umbara he is trying to escape so no one he knows would see it. He was hoping it would grow back on before he would have to include alliance to the conspiracy but Nathema happened too early. Killing option was there just because of the haircut, because that, if anything, was a warcrime on itself.

† Come up with outlandish motivations for unlikely people:

Real reason for Aristocra Saganu's eagerness to let alliance on Copero was that he wanted to clean that place from inhabitants so he could build there a golf course and a holiday club and locals were turtling his efforts with complaints.

Real reason behind Vall's dude blocked us from reaching the Theron was because he was the one who did his haircut on first place and didn't want bad publicity.

Oh yeah! I knew it!! His "He will prevail!" constant claim always sounded like he was declaring his inconditionnal love to Theron. And the tone he uses when he talks to him before ("Victory isn't my fate, Theron, it's yours!").

That's what i thought too.

During the whole fight i was like "back off, that's my man"

I guess i litteraly killed the competition though

Luckily, Valss was worse when i did it on a character who was not romancing Theron, but it was pretty awkward when i did it on my JK, seems like they were both fighting to get Theron's attention

I kept feebly hoping the last bit of the final battle at Nathema would end with our character getting blasted in the face followed by a fade to white then a fade in to a blurred vision with one of your classic companions standing over you with a worried look on their face. Conversation follows as a plot device where everything was a concussion based delusion. Then insert another plot device (some mission you have no recollection of) where you got to choose 6 of your FEET cast of companions as new companions (with the various cartel, subscriber rewards, mission related etc as extras). The forgotten mission(s)? 6.0 maybe.

Oh well.

I'm sure they won't hesitate to enlighten you on it. Just do a search on her kill-demand thread and you'll see how it is. The short version is you (the Inq) manipulate her, kill her masters, use her to get what you want, Bioware doesn't allow you to tell her to go home if you don't want her on your ship, so please roll out the guillotine now and make sure it can cut through at least three montrals and a neck. You'd think she bullied her way onto your ship like Skadge, the way she makes some people froth at the mouth.

 

Bioware made it worse by pissing of DS Sith on purpose by allowing her to stand up for herself if she's been abused or hated by her Inq. Because the victim in that case deserves to die, right? How DARE she stand up for herself, especially in front of a former slave themselves!!

So I just watched the LS and DS reunion on youtube and I actually see the problem from the Dark Side point of view. A Dark Lord of the Sith rank V would most likely not just allow Ashara to basically say screw you and walk away. Especially after the LOL claim of being equals. My Darth V has killed people for less.

Now Ashara is an LI so I don't think she should have a kill option, but I can see the problem some people had with that scene. Realistically, how many Dark Side Sith would allow Ashara to leave that room alive? I'd wager many would have killed her, but your character is no longer allowed to be a Dark Sith in that scene. Think of the class story: how many NPCs would have lived past that scene when facing a Dark Side Sith?

This isn't an Ashara problem though, it's a KOTFE/ET problem: lack of character agency. It is by far my biggest problem with that entire storyline.

Also I want to say again: LI's should not have kill options simply because it screws their fans out of content. If the writer's didn't do it that way, then fine, off with their heads. But they seem incapable of giving a companion who could be dead for some any content. I hope that changes.

So I just watched the LS and DS reunion on youtube and I actually see the problem from the Dark Side point of view. A Dark Lord of the Sith rank V would most likely not just allow Ashara to basically say screw you and walk away. Especially after the LOL claim of being equals. My Darth V has killed people for less.

 

Now Ashara is an LI so I don't think she should have a kill option, but I can see the problem some people had with that scene. Realistically, how many Dark Side Sith would allow Ashara to leave that room alive? I'd wager many would have killed her, but your character is no longer allowed to be a Dark Sith in that scene. Think of the class story: how many NPCs would have lived past that scene when facing a Dark Side Sith?

 

This isn't an Ashara problem though, it's a KOTFE/ET problem: lack of character agency. It is by far my biggest problem with that entire storyline.

 

Also I want to say again: LI's should not have kill options simply because it screws their fans out of content. If the writer's didn't do it that way, then fine, off with their heads. But they seem incapable of giving a companion who could be dead for some any content. I hope that changes.

Nobody knows what she was up to and it's not like they really give you any examples of what she was doing. Whatever it was, apparently she was able to resist becoming an Ash-pile* by her "loyal" masters who hated her but got angry she didn't seek them out so they could electrify her. (Writers withholding vital information like that is a very unlikely reason, I'm just saying, it's kind of right there in your face and it tickles me to think of people who hate her yet did her alert like she'd openly and lovingly come to them for an execution get shut down because she's not taking it anymore and it's not like she was just sitting on her butt not training or not becoming a better Force user. How arrogant to think no one else can ever get better or stronger like the Inq did from slavery)

Despite her being my favorite, I have still admitted the whole alert was bad from both sides, and I see exactly why DS Inq's are angry. But despite the mishandling, because she is able to leave anyway, it might as well be a kill option, so I think people should lighten up about it and stop bringing up how much you hate her in threads that have 100% nothing, nada, zilch to do with her (not you personally). If you never liked her, great, you didn't ever have to talk to her while she was on your ship, and you could just not do the alert and create a headcanon where she gets eaten by an exogorth while she's out galivanting around the galaxy not seeking out her abusive DS Inq "master."

The lack of agency is definitely a problem, and this is yet another example where it's just completely taken away, and it ends up with no one happy (I'm happy she's not killable, but the reunion with my apprentice and bff was bad, she's likely done for the rest of the life of the game, she wasn't given a SGR like Jaesa (one of my favorite scenes with my SW since 4.0 started), so it's not like I'm getting a big prize here).

*pun intended

Nobody knows what she was up to and it's not like they really give you any examples of what she was doing. Whatever it was, apparently she was able to resist becoming an Ash-pile* by her "loyal" masters who hated her but got angry she didn't seek them out so they could electrify her. (Writers withholding vital information like that is a very unlikely reason, I'm just saying, it's kind of right there in your face and it tickles me to think of people who hate her yet did her alert like she'd openly and lovingly come to them for an execution get shut down because she's not taking it anymore and it's not like she was just sitting on her butt not training or not becoming a better Force user. How arrogant to think no one else can ever get better or stronger like the Inq did from slavery)

 

Despite her being my favorite, I have still admitted the whole alert was bad from both sides, and I see exactly why DS Inq's are angry. But despite the mishandling, because she is able to leave anyway, it might as well be a kill option, so I think people should lighten up about it and stop bringing up how much you hate her in threads that have 100% nothing, nada, zilch to do with her (not you personally). If you never liked her, great, you didn't ever have to talk to her while she was on your ship, and you could just not do the alert and create a headcanon where she gets eaten by an exogorth while she's out galivanting around the galaxy not seeking out her abusive DS Inq "master."

 

The lack of agency is definitely a problem, and this is yet another example where it's just completely taken away, and it ends up with no one happy (I'm happy she's not killable, but the reunion with my apprentice and bff was bad, she's likely done for the rest of the life of the game, she wasn't given a SGR like Jaesa (one of my favorite scenes with my SW since 4.0 started), so it's not like I'm getting a big prize here).

 

 

*pun intended

Well, there's nothing here to disagree with really and I think we're generally on the same page. I agree that it makes sense for Ashara to become stronger, but so did your Inq. Let me ask you this: your Inq killed the immortal emperor and his child(ren), who are arguably the strongest force users in the story. Do you really believe because of a lightsaber block that Ashara is your equal? Do you honestly believe that all things considered, it's arrogance to think Ashara is not at your level? I'd wager you don't, but because accepting Ashara as your equal is the only way to get her back as a companion, you just roll with it. I'd have done the same, tbh, if she were my favourite. Due to some pretty terrible writing at times we have to behave OOC to achieve our desired outcome.

The lack of agency in KOTFE/ET is why I almost cancelled my subscription. Hopefully they are turning that around in the new story.

Well, there's nothing here to disagree with really and I think we're generally on the same page. I agree that it makes sense for Ashara to become stronger, but so did your Inq. Let me ask you this: your Inq killed the immortal emperor and his child(ren), who are arguably the strongest force users in the story. Do you really believe because of a lightsaber block that Ashara is your equal? Do you honestly believe that all things considered, it's arrogance to think Ashara is not at your level? I'd wager you don't, but because accepting Ashara as your equal is the only way to get her back as a companion, you just roll with it. I'd have done the same, tbh, if she were my favourite. Due to some pretty terrible writing at times we have to behave OOC to achieve our desired outcome.

 

The lack of agency in KOTFE/ET is why I almost cancelled my subscription. Hopefully they are turning that around in the new story.

Well, a smuggler/trooper/bounty hunter/agent also killed those powerful force users. I believe it's pretty heavily implied that Valkorian is doing a lot of the work (not because we want it but because we keep getting reminded and forced into it by the writing), and stretches credulity that we would survive without his help even when we reject his power (Lightsaber in the gut kills most people pretty quick. Yet we were able to walk (and fight) without assistance on the way back to the Gravestone).

As to Ashara, well, I wanted to be partners in reforming the Empire long before the Alert. It doesn't bother me one bit if she thinks she's my equal. If she's my ally and partner I would want that, and it's not like I'm going to FIGHT her, so I'm not going to get into a pissing-match with her over her newfound strength (Come on *****! Arm wrestle me right here!!). Galaxy is a big place, she could have literally been up to anything over 5-7 years, and she had a scholarly, Force-strong, and power-seeking master to follow. She was not just sitting in sorrow in a corner somewhere hoping to be reunited through inaction.

She shows up claiming to be stronger--especially if she is under a cruel master, she would know precisely how stupid that would be to say to their face and would probably expect to be fried on the spot. So...…….she's suicidal? But blocks the attempt? Who's weak in this case? (this is what sets off the DS Inqs so much--they want to choose to be "strong" (as if killing people indiscriminately makes you a strong person) and they have no choice but to look "weak" (waaah, I can't kill someone for not being my mindless thrall!) in this case thanks to the way it's written.)

The point being that she wouldn't have said it to your face if she didn't believe it, and she actually backs it up, doesn't she? Or maybe that's all she trained for, so she could stand up to you and then leave. She somehow didn't desire your death or there would have been an actual fight. That would have been some pretty satisfying revenge to make your rage- and hate-filled DS Inq extra mad by not being able to kill the person they apparently hate so much.

I get the lack of agency for a DS Inq there, I just feel no sympathy when the premise is so flawed that she would seek out a DS Inq in the first place. If she's so hated, just don't do the alert. Pretend she's dead. No "weakling" will show you up by blocking your egocentric tantrum lightning (no one can be stronger than ME!!!!)

*All use of the word "you" is not personal, of course

Also I want to say again: LI's should not have kill options simply because it screws their fans out of content. If the writer's didn't do it that way, then fine, off with their heads. But they seem incapable of giving a companion who could be dead for some any content. I hope that changes.

Thing is that she's a class specific AA, so she exists only for 1 class out of 8. Then she has both a "get away i don't want you" and a "i've had enough, i'm out" option.

So she's very unlikely to get any significant content anyways, except maybe, for a small number of characters who will have her as their LI, or who decided to keep her.

So in this context and considering how the AA goes for a DS SI, it just doesn't make any sense that she doesn't have a kill option.

I've only done that AA on my LS SI, and it took me quite some time to chose between the "fine, welcome back" and the "go away i don't want you", mainly because of how the whole dialogue goes, even from a LS SI's perspective.

And i'll clearly not do it on my DS SI, because there's absolutely no way he'd let her go away like that.

Oh, and btw, when you "recruit" her on Taris, there is an option that basically says "kill her", but someone (sry i don't remember who, probably Zash), tells you not to do it and if you take that she's totally forced on you, even if you don't want her, and after that, she's completely useless anyways. So if it had really been an option, i'd totally have left Taris without her...

Well, a smuggler/trooper/bounty hunter/agent also killed those powerful force users. I believe it's pretty heavily implied that Valkorian is doing a lot of the work (not because we want it but because we keep getting reminded and forced into it by the writing), and stretches credulity that we would survive without his help even when we reject his power (Lightsaber in the gut kills most people pretty quick. Yet we were able to walk (and fight) without assistance on the way back to the Gravestone).

 

As to Ashara, well, I wanted to be partners in reforming the Empire long before the Alert. It doesn't bother me one bit if she thinks she's my equal. If she's my ally and partner I would want that, and it's not like I'm going to FIGHT her, so I'm not going to get into a pissing-match with her over her newfound strength (Come on *****! Arm wrestle me right here!!). Galaxy is a big place, she could have literally been up to anything over 5-7 years, and she had a scholarly, Force-strong, and power-seeking master to follow. She was not just sitting in sorrow in a corner somewhere hoping to be reunited through inaction.

She shows up claiming to be stronger--especially if she is under a cruel master, she would know precisely how stupid that would be to say to their face and would probably expect to be fried on the spot. So...…….she's suicidal? But blocks the attempt? Who's weak in this case? (this is what sets off the DS Inqs so much--they want to choose to be "strong" (as if killing people indiscriminately makes you a strong person) and they have no choice but to look "weak" (waaah, I can't kill someone for not being my mindless thrall!) in this case thanks to the way it's written.)

The point being that she wouldn't have said it to your face if she didn't believe it, and she actually backs it up, doesn't she? Or maybe that's all she trained for, so she could stand up to you and then leave. She somehow didn't desire your death or there would have been an actual fight. That would have been some pretty satisfying revenge to make your rage- and hate-filled DS Inq extra mad by not being able to kill the person they apparently hate so much.

 

I get the lack of agency for a DS Inq there, I just feel no sympathy when the premise is so flawed that she would seek out a DS Inq in the first place. If she's so hated, just don't do the alert. Pretend she's dead. No "weakling" will show you up by blocking your egocentric tantrum lightning (no one can be stronger than ME!!!!)

 

 

*All use of the word "you" is not personal, of course

You're certainly free to believe Ashara's an equal and I respect your roleplay choice to tell her that. If as you suggest she trained for that specific moment, then great; the reunion should have reflected that. It didn't. So Ashara didn't. And now we Dark Side V people are left with creating our own story because unlike you, we didn't get a roleplay choice. And again, I don't want her dead. And no, I don't think she backed it up; she block some lightning - whoopdie doo. I'd have liked for it to have been more convincing, is all I'm saying. Give my Inq a real fight; a claim with some meat on it. I would have been fine if a Dark Side character could duel her and it end in a stalemate, or even lose to Ashara. I don't need my character to be the most powerful, but I don't want them to be a chump, either.

I don't hate Ashara at all, but I still won't do the alert when I get to it because of the lack of agency and OOC behaviour of my Dark Side Inq. Not because of Ashara.

Use of YOU is not personal.

Thing is that she's a class specific AA, so she exists only for 1 class out of 8. Then she has both a "get away i don't want you" and a "i've had enough, i'm out" option.

So she's very unlikely to get any significant content anyways, except maybe, for a small number of characters who will have her as their LI, or who decided to keep her.

 

So in this context and considering how the AA goes for a DS SI, it just doesn't make any sense that she doesn't have a kill option.

I've only done that AA on my LS SI, and it took me quite some time to chose between the "fine, welcome back" and the "go away i don't want you", mainly because of how the whole dialogue goes, even from a LS SI's perspective.

And i'll clearly not do it on my DS SI, because there's absolutely no way he'd let her go away like that.

 

Oh, and btw, when you "recruit" her on Taris, there is an option that basically says "kill her", but someone (sry i don't remember who, probably Zash), tells you not to do it and if you take that she's totally forced on you, even if you don't want her, and after that, she's completely useless anyways. So if it had really been an option, i'd totally have left Taris without her...

I wish there were companions we could say no to. I would have left Kaliyo on Hutta. I probably would have left Ashara on Taris though I don't hate her, it's just there's no reason to take a Jedi along and my Dark Side Inq wouldn't have. One of the things I like about the Dragon Age franchise is there's a lot more opportunity for that. With almost all the companions in DA:O and Sera in DA:I. Thanks for the jar of bees, now go away. She grew on me after a while though.

Well, a smuggler/trooper/bounty hunter/agent also killed those powerful force users. I believe it's pretty heavily implied that Valkorian is doing a lot of the work (not because we want it but because we keep getting reminded and forced into it by the writing), and stretches credulity that we would survive without his help even when we reject his power (Lightsaber in the gut kills most people pretty quick. Yet we were able to walk (and fight) without assistance on the way back to the Gravestone).

Yeah, no. The SI has also killed Darth Thanaton and convinced the rest of the Dark Council that she's not to be ****ed with long before coming face to face with Valkorion. The fact that non-Force users take out Valkorion and Arcann as well is an often derided failing of the KotFE/ET story more than a statement about the Force using classes' abilities by that point.

What has Ashara been doing these last 6 years? She can't have been fighting epic enemies and transcending the limits of light and dark because, um, that's kind of the PC's gig. Most likely she's been safely "meditating" somewhere and being generally useless, because the people who could teach her anything were too busy getting pwned by Arcann and his goons. Which is the only way a lightweight like Acina ends up empress.

It is extremely out of character for a DS SI to just let a former minion talk back to them and walk away, or "accept them as an equal". You should be able to put her newfound training to the test, resulting in either her death or her finally accepting who's boss -- again. She doesn't need to be suicidal to confront her former master that way. It's enough for her to grossly overestimate her skills -- which is quite fitting with the character up to that point. So not suicidal, but rather delusional.

The SI has plot armor as necessitated by game mechanics (no permadeath for PCs). Ashara doesn't require it, unless they intend to make her a main protagonist/antagonist in the future, which I strongly doubt. Nah. The fact that they gave it to her is simply lazy writing and let's wrap this up real quick and get back to Anthem.

As an aside, it's baffling that you are putting so much effort into mocking other people's chosen flavor of power fantasy in this game of all places. No doubt you roleplay as a flawed, relatable average joe college grad with a 9-5 job and not a Mary Sue in any way shape or form, right?

Why would Darth Nox or any other dark sider forgive Theron?

My Darth Nox forgave him and they are living happily ever after in their home. I have no desire to ruin their ending by playing anymore of 5.10 (accept to get decorations and gear). As far as story goes - nope. I am already very upset at that whole opening scene with 5.10 and that junk hug and walk off she got from him. But hey if you romanced Lana you got two kiss scenes and a sunset. It really shows how little the writers or creators of this hot mess really care about what the fans want.

In fact, my dark 5 Sith Warrior also forgave him. Just because they embrace the dark side doesn't mean they are blood thirsty and inherently evil. Now she killed several others in her wake in the Alliance, including her former husband. But Theron didn't deserve to die.

I still think there were far better ways to deal with this and get the Eternal Fleet and Gravestone crushed (if the goal was to do so to force the PC back toward the factions).

 

1. Conditioning. Theron was an SIS agent. We know Intelligence used conditioning on both sides (Ardun Kothe had no problem using Cipher Nine's magic word and neither did any of his colleagues). He's got implants. He spent a lot of time alone on Nathema during KOTET 7 and hell, with the Revanites back in SoR, and maybe someone got to him. So someone's activated his magic word and he's fighting it like Cipher Nine, but he's forced to go and get the map, etc.

I had mentioned this a long time ago. I really think they should have gone with this idea. It would have been more believable, even if it was a "we've already had this story with the agent" feel to it. At least I would have been more convinced that the guy my character fell in love with wasn't a complete idiot.

Theron deserved way better than he got. WE as players deserved better than this. I don't know if Drew Karpyshyn had anything to do with this mess. I sure hope not. I like his previous works in the game. He writes good books. I loved Annihilation.

Also, I really think they intended to have Theron betray us and then changed their minds. There is recorded dialog that was edited and cut from Iokath, Copero, and Umbara that suggested this.

Well RIP Theron Shan because Bioware just wrote another fantastically interesting character out of existence for no good reason at all.

Writers are responsible for the story, and it is not a democracy. They shouldn't act like it is.

I have a lot of respect for game developers who can say no to their playerbase, and even more so when they can provide an elaboration as to why. It is important for game developers to follow their own vision and as a player it is okay to agree or disagree with that vision.

Every choice you make in your story is an illusion, if the story itself doesn't change fundamentally because of it. It doesn't matter if Vette or Torian dies. It just means there will never be a future where Vette or Torian will have any meaningful part in future story.

I do not have the source to back this up, but I recall the developers saying in an early Q&A that they did not want companions to be killable, even though they knew it was a popular request. Though this reason was more based on gameplay rather than narrative. Players could only have so many companions; what would you do if you killed off your healer? In modern SWTOR this is not really a problem. Partly because we can select roles for our companions (they were set in the past), but also because we have a billion of them.

But like you said, they've painted themselves into a corner. Even if Vette and Torian hadn't been killed off, what are the odds that they would have gotten any more screen time? Gault didn't do anything throughout KOTET and he's not even dead. One of my favourite companions, M1-4X, has not had any screen time at all outside of his recruitment mission. Bringing him along on class missions as a trooper was always a hoot. But nowadays we can't even pick which companions we want to use in the story missions, and they can't possibly weave in all of the remaining companions into the story. At this point it doesn't really matter if we kill someone or not. All it does is provide closure. I for one wanted nothing more than to kill SCORPIO on my agent back in 2012. I still remember how I pulled my gun on her. Killing her was the only part I enjoyed when playing through KOTET.

Furthermore, they can't provide a satisfactory closure to all of the love interests in the game. I for one was appalled by the reunion with Vector. My agent had such a complex relationship with him, where she detested him in the beginning, but his mild and gentle character in the midst of all the bad **** that happened made him grow on her. As I recall, she did flirt with him but refused his advances many times, until he showed up one day, repressing the hive mind and being himself. They pretty much had a one night stand -- he couldn't suppress the hive forever, so what they shared was brief but genuine, and truly special. But now I'm forced into this creepy "the nest couldn't bear the thought of losing you"-crap. The reunion did not at all respect the decisions I made back in vanilla. And sure, that is a bummer, but it's fine. My expectations weren't exactly high. I doubt they even have the data from those very few and specific decisions I made. It's just an on or off switch.

So with all this said, let the developers follow their own vision. They seem to be taking steps to leave the Alliance behind, which is good. We see new companion characters being introduced, which is also good. While I personally love the character of Vette, I only really liked her because of what happened during the Sith Warrior story. My Operative did not have that experience. Vette is nobody to her, except some overconfident grave robber. Similarly, with my Jedi Shadow I did not kill SCOPRIO -- because she did not have the same toxic relationship with that robot that my agent had all those years ago. If I get to recruit Kira it wouldn't really mean anything for anyone other than my Jedi Guardian.

I do not have the source to back this up, but I recall the developers saying in an early Q&A that they did not want companions to be killable, even though they knew it was a popular request. Though this reason was more based on gameplay rather than narrative. Players could only have so many companions; what would you do if you killed off your healer? In modern SWTOR this is not really a problem. Partly because we can select roles for our companions (they were set in the past), but also because we have a billion of them.

Companions were killable in beta. Specifically, you could kill Quinn and Ashara, but they weren't the only ones.

They removed the option to do so after people killed their only healer and complained that game was too hard. Which back then wouldn't get you laughed out of the thread.

Funny thing, my SI never wanted to kill Asharra...but *did* want to kill Talos - at the end of Hoth she told him “no, you can’t come with me” and then boarded her ship..to find him stowed away in the cargo hold. It was so frustrating that I couldn’t have her choke or lightning him or *anything*, much less kill him. (She has a severe hatred of humans that was beaten into her from a young age - Andronikus is about the only human she finds tolerable: “he’s not half bad, for a filthy human”. Her hatred of humans is the primary reason she’s DS)

She did worry about Asharra for a while because of her stubborn “I was born to be a Jedi!” nonsense - she was worried that’d get Asharra and anyone around her killed for no good reason, especially in the Empire.

For her, every kill choice will likely come down to “are they filthy humans? If so they die, and if not they live” when I reach that point.

Conditioning

Conditioning would instantly draw parallel to IA story. I doubt the current writing team wants such a thing.

Bah!!

Theron was a pos liar, after he died is mother sent me a boo hoo message, tough luck

I feel like this arc is a pretty standard example of how things are in SWTOR. We seem to always get "things" whether its from story or something mechanical in the game...and then it's almost as if the development team or the ideas or whatever it is has some sort of ADHD moment and it's forgotten about and lost in the tornado of other stuff which ends up making the stories feel lacking, and the mechanics feel incomplete. They start out with something and then it always feel under developed.

Do I think this arc doesn't make sense? No. I think it does make sense. Do I think it feels totally underdeveloped from a story perspective? Yes.

I feel like this arc is a pretty standard example of how things are in SWTOR. We seem to always get "things" whether its from story or something mechanical in the game...and then it's almost as if the development team or the ideas or whatever it is has some sort of ADHD moment and it's forgotten about and lost in the tornado of other stuff which ends up making the stories feel lacking, and the mechanics feel incomplete. They start out with something and then it always feel under developed.

 

Do I think this arc doesn't make sense? No. I think it does make sense. Do I think it feels totally underdeveloped from a story perspective? Yes.

Many people have brought up that they probably originally planned to make him an actual traitor, and what we've received is them backtracking due to outside pressure--which naturally would be something underdeveloped when they had one plan and were suddenly told to make it a fake-out.

Same thing with KOTET. How much better might we all feel about this expansion as a whole if we had received the intended full three years of story with companions brought back through the story rather than useless Alliance Alerts? Rather than the condensed, cut, heavily-edited mess we seem to have gotten when they were told to axe the third season.

Many people have brought up that they probably originally planned to make him an actual traitor, and what we've received is them backtracking due to outside pressure--which naturally would be something underdeveloped when they had one plan and were suddenly told to make it a fake-out.

IMHO I believe the hypothesis that Theron was originally meant to be an actual traitor to DS/evil Commanders and a fake-out for LS/more benevolent ones.

When Umbara came out, it was noted that choosing the throne or the peacekeeper route didn't seem to be the deciding factor in the speech that you got from Theron on the train. There were people who had chosen peacekeeper and got the "you're an evil despot" speech for instance.

Theron also disapproves and makes critical comments during KOTFE and KOTET if you kill Kaliyo or Jorgan and if Koth leaves, Theron says something like, "he has a point." He approves if you help the refugees during the Jorgan chapter, too, and he tries to talk you out of shooting down Senya and Arcann.

So I am wondering if the original plan was to make things cumulative the way they were with Koth. If you racked up too many points against Theron, he would go traitor for real. If you weren't so bad, he'd be undercover and trying to help you. It makes sense in both cases. There's no reason he (or a lot of the Alliance) would really want to support a despot but there's also no reason he'd want to join a doomsday cult to go against a more peaceful and level-headed Commander.

And if they backpedaled on that, it would make sense that it happened after Umbara or perhaps in the lead-up to it. The original plan's flags would have been in place for that flashpoint (ie, which speech you got would have = if Theron was really betraying you or not). But they animated in a shot of Theron breaking the window on the train to set the "hey I'm only joking" plot in motion.

Same thing with KOTET. How much better might we all feel about this expansion as a whole if we had received the intended full three years of story with companions brought back through the story rather than useless Alliance Alerts? Rather than the condensed, cut, heavily-edited mess we seem to have gotten when they were told to axe the third season.

I really wish we'd seen KOTET with all the chapters as it was intended to be.