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Maybe I'm in the wrong...


Beltj's Avatar


Beltj
02.01.2020 , 11:03 AM | #1
Help me with this.
So I pop onto a veteran flashpoint for the first time in years... I'll admit that maybe I've forgotten how things work. Get onto Hammer Station with a group of pubs. I'm tank. DPS person runs ahead, agros TWO groups of enemies by shooting at them from around a corner. I jump in to take all agro off of the DPS (my job as tank, if I remember), and DPS, without saying anything, runs ahead and leaves me and one other DPS to fight them alone. Everyone dies. Then they call me an idiot for attacking two groups of enemies, and start running ahead without telling us a dang thing about what they're really doing. Then he says we don't really know how to run a flashpoint.

So... is there something I'm missing? Was he just trying to speed run it or something? If so... shouldn't he either explain what he's doing first since he's with a bunch of random people with varying degrees of experience or save that kind of thing with a group of his friends or something? I mean, I'm fine speedrunning, I suppose, but is it automatically assumed when you start these days that it WILL be a speedrun?

SteveTheCynic's Avatar


SteveTheCynic
02.01.2020 , 02:33 PM | #2
Quote: Originally Posted by Beltj View Post
but is it automatically assumed when you start these days that it WILL be a speedrun?
In FPs as old as Hammer Station, absolutely it's assumed that it's a speedrun.

And also, spamming speedruns of Hammer Station is the new meta for how to build your end-game gear. The explanation is a bit complicated, but less complicated than the new gearing system.
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alexzk's Avatar


alexzk
02.01.2020 , 03:12 PM | #3
Yeh, Hammer stations are automatic speedruns those days. Also everybody expect using corner LoS, i.e. aggro pack, hide behind corners and wait them to come for aoe (that's why dps run too much away, so mobs could keep moving).

As for tank doing vets - preserver set will do a job with no healers around. Also it works in masters when healer is not geared enough.
There is no ignorance - there is knowledge.

JediQuaker's Avatar


JediQuaker
02.02.2020 , 08:09 AM | #4
Quote: Originally Posted by Beltj View Post
I mean, I'm fine speedrunning, I suppose, but is it automatically assumed when you start these days that it WILL be a speedrun?
No! You can assume that there's a good chance that someone will want to do a "speed run", but you certainly can't assume that everyone will be doing a speedrun. And you're not obligated to "speed" yourself.
Flashpoints like Hammer Station are normally done fairly quickly these days by skipping a lot of mobs and taking short cuts, so it may seem like a speed run, but usually, people are progressing at a normal pace.
Occasionally you will run into some idiot who wants to speed run - speed runs are fine if most people in the group know what the speed runner is doing - but, as you can see, sometimes the speed run ends up taking longer because of party wipes, rage quits, etc.
Part of the problem is that there is a large group of people, such as myself, who regularly do Flashpoints just for grins, or to level up an alt, etc. But recently because of Conquest(?) there's also a group of non-regular players who want to do speed runs. Unfortunately, these people seem to think that everyone wants to speed run. 🤔
These days, if I encounter a speed runner in say, Hammer Station, I just let them run ahead. If they succeed to kill mobs, that's fine, and if they die trying, that's also fine. 🙂 Meanwhile I continue on at the normal pace.

I was in an HS group just the other day with a speed runner who rage quit after the first boss, because the rest of the group wasn't keeping up. I guess he thought restarting from the beginning would somehow be quicker. 🙄

P.S. There's really only 1 group in Veteran HS near the start that "needs" to be LOS'd. The rest of the groups are all close enough together to just be AoE'd normally.
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Ardarell_Solo's Avatar


Ardarell_Solo
02.02.2020 , 10:00 AM | #5
Even on speedruns you don't pull as a dps player. If dps players still do it, warn them twice, then vote kick them. If the vote kick fails, you can consider leaving the group yourself, which will have them wating for a substitute tank for quite a bit. And I'd generally put dps players who regularly pull mobs on your ignore list.
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Gyronamics's Avatar


Gyronamics
02.02.2020 , 10:46 AM | #6
Quote: Originally Posted by Ardarell_Solo View Post
Even on speedruns you don't pull as a dps player. If dps players still do it, warn them twice, then vote kick them. If the vote kick fails, you can consider leaving the group yourself, which will have them wating for a substitute tank for quite a bit. And I'd generally put dps players who regularly pull mobs on your ignore list.
You seem to have missed that this is about veteran mode HS.

Anyone of any role pulling like an ape is likely to get kicked and get replaced by a companion or a very quick queue. Tank role is definitely not special in a FP where a dps can be 50 real levels higher than you.
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JediQuaker's Avatar


JediQuaker
02.02.2020 , 11:10 AM | #7
Quote: Originally Posted by Ardarell_Solo View Post
Even on speedruns you don't pull as a dps player. If dps players still do it, warn them twice, then vote kick them. If the vote kick fails, you can consider leaving the group yourself, which will have them wating for a substitute tank for quite a bit.
In veteran mode flashpoints, nobody "needs" to tank and tanks are not required, so you only have to wait for another player of any type - plus, of course, most of the time the missing player is just replaced with a companion - at least until a substitute shows up.
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LD_Little_Dragon's Avatar


LD_Little_Dragon
02.02.2020 , 11:19 AM | #8
Quote: Originally Posted by JediQuaker View Post

P.S. There's really only 1 group in Veteran HS near the start that "needs" to be LOS'd. The rest of the groups are all close enough together to just be AoE'd normally.
That's incorrect, not everyone has that 30m aoe range, plenty only have 10m range aoe. LoS just speeds things up. It's not necessary, but then you really don't have to los that mob right outside the starting area either.

Quote: Originally Posted by Ardarell_Solo View Post
Even on speedruns you don't pull as a dps player. If dps players still do it, warn them twice, then vote kick them. If the vote kick fails, you can consider leaving the group yourself, which will have them wating for a substitute tank for quite a bit. And I'd generally put dps players who regularly pull mobs on your ignore list.
You do if the 'tank' is level 20 and you're level 75. If a tank is over level 40 or so I'll usually let them try to tank, but anything less than that and they really can't do much.

That plus there are plenty of players who que as tank when they obviously don't know anything about the flashpoint. You really should play dps or heals when you're new to flashpoints. I don't mind if they at least say they're new, but hardly any of the clueless players do, they just run around like a headless chicken.
Stealthy heals, stealthy dps, stealthy tank.

Equeliber's Avatar


Equeliber
02.03.2020 , 06:45 AM | #9
Quote: Originally Posted by Ardarell_Solo View Post
Even on speedruns you don't pull as a dps player. If dps players still do it, warn them twice, then vote kick them. If the vote kick fails, you can consider leaving the group yourself, which will have them wating for a substitute tank for quite a bit. And I'd generally put dps players who regularly pull mobs on your ignore list.
You seem to be missing that this discussion is about a veteran flashpoint, usually there is no tank there.

So yes, one of the DPS players will be pulling. Even if there is a guy marked with a tank icon, unless he is lvl40-50 or higher, he can't really survive anything if he pulls. Usually, the DPS player who can manage his personal defenses the best will be pulling, as he can confidently run into any group of mobs.

And well, these days Hammer Station have been run thousands of times, so many people will just automatically assume it's a speedrun, ignore what roles are there and just start running forward. The fact that most classes will not have any troubles surviving on their own ensures that roles really don't matter in HS. In quite a few other veteran fps it won't work like that, but there are also plenty of fps similar to HS in difficulty.

If it's Master Mode, then yes, I would expect the DPS players to wait for the tank to pull. It can be a bit frustrating for the DPS players if the tank is being unreasonably slow but in that case, personally, I would ask the tank to pick up the pace instead of just starting to run ahead of him.

JediQuaker's Avatar


JediQuaker
02.03.2020 , 08:29 AM | #10
Quote: Originally Posted by LD_Little_Dragon View Post
That's incorrect, not everyone has that 30m aoe range, plenty only have 10m range aoe. LoS just speeds things up. It's not necessary, but then you really don't have to los that mob right outside the starting area either.
Let me clarify. I think that only that second mob right outside the start area, really benefits from LOS. (There is a small mob just before that that some people, including me, will LOS)
The rest of the mobs often don't benefit from LOS for two main reasons:
1. The time it takes to gather them up and LOS them is more than the time it takes to just kill them outright. For example, the group just past that 1st (or 2nd) group - in less time it takes for them to come around the corner and to then kill them, you could have just run around and killed them individually.
2. Most of the time, in Veteran mode HS, at least one of the players is not familiar with LOS, so the mobs end up being attacked before they are fully LOS'd, and much confusion ensues, sometimes resulting in wipes, deaths, RQ's, etc, making thing take longer overall.

But this is only my vague thoughts on the matter. I personally don't mind if people LOS or speed run, and sometimes some good grins can result. The main thing about speed running is - don't assume everyone wants to, or knows how, to speed run. Remember, it's just a PUG.

Basically, in HS, I think that LOS is not any faster in all but that one case. Personally, I like to LOS as my Gunslinger for the AoE, but I don't enjoy it as much on my Guardian, or Marauder, even though they also have good AoE.
Hold water, a sieve may not, but hold another sieve, it will - Yoda..

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