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The betrayer arc makes no sense: Iokath, Umbara, Copero, Nathema *spoilers*

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Story and Lore > Spoilers
The betrayer arc makes no sense: Iokath, Umbara, Copero, Nathema *spoilers*

Paulsutherland's Avatar


Paulsutherland
01.17.2019 , 06:19 AM | #41
Quote: Originally Posted by Noerra View Post
This is fuzzy for me as well. To be honest i still really don't understand what the heck happened in there alltough it is possible it was explained but i just didn't get it. Why did my PC sat on the throne even it was already proven twice it's not a good idea? And if she stubbornly wanted to sacrifice herself to save everyone why didn't Theron try to stop her but even was telling her to sit there even he had seen what is does? Who was the hooded figure and what was the meaning of triggering those explosions around that throne, did it save us or was it attempt to kill us?

And about the eternal fleet i have to admit i had hard times to follow who was controlling it in what point all trought the kotfe/kotet/iokath, with all the different owners and free will and what not. For this moment i am unsure if we got any of the eternal fleet ships left or just the ships we gained from imps and reps who defected to alliance. Heh
The Iokath Operation is confusing too. You fight through the first four bosses fine, then all of a sudden out of the blue the fourth boss (Scyva) is helping you bring down the last boss (Izax). I'm not sure what happened here either but until they say otherwise I'm assuming Iokath and all the ships inside are under her control.

Well, we've got at least one as I did the Inquisitor Pirate's alliance alert after Nathema. If we need a replacement fleet? Go to Iokath and claim Scyvas? Iokath has plenty of ships and chairs scattered around.

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Why would they want Vaylin as their companion ?
Unlimited POWAH!!!!!!

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But more seriously, why would Theron risk his own life to try saving such individuals in the first place ? Why would he even be following them ? Especially if said dark siders have already shown several times that they have no problem killing anyone who rubs them the wrong way for no particular reason...
Hmmm ... good question. In that scenario I imagine Theron would of been doing it stop both the Order of Zildrog and us from using the superweapon.

Iheaca's Avatar


Iheaca
01.17.2019 , 06:20 AM | #42
Quote: Originally Posted by krakadyla View Post
These are exactly the sort of speculations that has no right to exist in well crafted, heck, halway-decently crafted story and people having to come up with their own fanfiction to justify multitude of plot holes only means that bloody writers did not do their damn job.
As a fan fiction writer, I do not totally agree. Plotholes are not necessarily bad as they allow people to see the story their own way. But only when the holes are limited to parts that are not essential. Which is not the case here of course.

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Well, the Galaxy's most notorious murderhobo (aka you ) just landed on their cargo/the porch of House Inrokini, can you really blame them from trying to defend themselves from oncoming murder spree or at least try go out with a bang? And even if Theronmancing bias helps to brush aside poor faceless mooks, there's still Acina and more importantly Jace Malcom (who is, let's not forget, Theron's dad), either of whom can perish and those deaths are on Theron.
On the other hand. who says that we would have killed everyone on the way. But fair enough, people are not always rational. As per the deaths on Iokath, I would not put them on Theron at all. We know that he tampered with the throne we are sitting on, but I do not think that he necessarily did the same with the thrones they try to use. What if they simply are not powerful (willpower, physical strength, whatever) enough to wield the weapon and it fires back against them?
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Goreshaga's Avatar


Goreshaga
01.17.2019 , 06:24 AM | #43
Quote: Originally Posted by Iheaca View Post
So the only things I can think about are purely about Theron himself. A need to prove himself that does not make him try to share as much as he could have and to prove that “Damn you all with your Force powers and all, I can do big things on my own too!” (thanks Satele !). A wish to protect the others that make him be overly… dumb and non-sensical. A strong paranoia (I strongly believe that spies must be the most paranoid of all beings) that would make him overly cautious until the moment when he realizes that he definitely cannot do it alone and will cause many deaths. And in a way he does not trust us to be capable of faking the fact of not knowing anything of what he is doing. Us being on the frontline is fine, but us being subtle? Naaaaaah, not possible.
There may be a bit of a combination of all that.

Even more so if he's romancing a FU, as he may feel that he's a bit useless / left behind.
Especially seeing as he nearly always runs off to meet contacts whenever he could be with you...

About the wish to protect others he cares about that makes him dumb, it's true actually, as he did it in Annihilation to try to protect Teff'ith while ruining a SIS operation and wrecking the Nar Shaddaa spaceport at the same time

krakadyla's Avatar


krakadyla
01.17.2019 , 06:41 AM | #44
Quote: Originally Posted by Goreshaga View Post
No one forced them to be there in the first place, and no one forced them to sit on these thrones, especially since we tried to explain to them that they'd probably just kill everyone, them included by doing that...
"No one forced them" is a very weak argument that can be used to excuse absolutely everything (e.g. "No one forced Master Orgus to follow Darth Murderevil to his ship") and that's why it works on nothing. Theron planted the intel causing them to come, Theron's responsible, and no excuses like "oh but they didn't have to come personally they could have sent henchmen" would whitewash him out of it.

krakadyla's Avatar


krakadyla
01.17.2019 , 06:53 AM | #45
Quote: Originally Posted by Iheaca View Post
As a fan fiction writer, I do not totally agree. Plotholes are not necessarily bad as they allow people to see the story their own way. But only when the holes are limited to parts that are not essential. Which is not the case here of course.
Yeah, that's what I meant. Fanfiction's supposed to explore, expand, speculate; not to fix glaring plotholes.

Goreshaga's Avatar


Goreshaga
01.17.2019 , 06:55 AM | #46
Quote: Originally Posted by krakadyla View Post
"No one forced them" is a very weak argument that can be used to excuse absolutely everything (e.g. "No one forced Master Orgus to follow Darth Murderevil to his ship") and that's why it works on nothing. Theron planted the intel causing them to come, Theron's responsible, and no excuses like "oh but they didn't have to come personally they could have sent henchmen" would whitewash him out of it.
Well they chose to do it.
My JK tried 3 times to convince Acina not to sit on that throne, not to activate the weapon and shut it down, Quinn also did it (he does it even more if you play a SW who sides with the Republic and she force pushed him on a wall for that), so yeah she chose her own fate at that time, and she's as much responsible of her own death as Theron for giving the intel on the superweapon
As much as Orgus chose to get on that ship, ready to sacrifice his own life if it meant giving a way to his former Padawan to save the Republic if he was unable to do it himself... Wich he did. No one forced him to sacrifice himself, but he did, because he though it'd be the best chance for the Republic to rely on his former Padawan to stop Angral

Quraswren's Avatar


Quraswren
01.17.2019 , 07:55 AM | #47
Quote: Originally Posted by Burana View Post
Avoid spoilers if you didn't play these storylines. Either the story doesn't make any sense, or it is not finished, and we are yet to find out who the traitor really was (Valkorion lives and was behind it?).

I played through the stories again, starting from Iokath, this is what happened.

Spoiler
It just doesn't make sense. One of the worst parts is when Lana tells you that her and theron have a way of communicating that no one but them knows. Their own made up way to communicating that no one would have any basis or previous knowledge in how to decipher. Then we have to go through a ton of garbage story just to hear theron whine about not being able to say anything because he would be found out and then showed the bad guys everywhere they needed to go while having the perfect way of communicating but did little to nothing to actually do it..

It was just rough to play and I hope he's really dead given his poor writing.
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krakadyla's Avatar


krakadyla
01.17.2019 , 07:57 AM | #48
Quote: Originally Posted by Goreshaga View Post
Well they chose to do it.
My JK tried 3 times to convince Acina not to sit on that throne, not to activate the weapon and shut it down, Quinn also did it (he does it even more if you play a SW who sides with the Republic and she force pushed him on a wall for that), so yeah she chose her own fate at that time, and she's as much responsible of her own death as Theron for giving the intel on the superweapon
As much as Orgus chose to get on that ship, ready to sacrifice his own life if it meant giving a way to his former Padawan to save the Republic if he was unable to do it himself... Wich he did. No one forced him to sacrifice himself, but he did, because he though it'd be the best chance for the Republic to rely on his former Padawan to stop Angral
Ah, the good old (and ever so logical) "I like the character = their reasons are good and valid, I don't care about them = its their own fault" argument.

Goreshaga's Avatar


Goreshaga
01.17.2019 , 08:17 AM | #49
Quote: Originally Posted by krakadyla View Post
Ah, the good old (and ever so logical) "I like the character = their reasons are good and valid, I don't care about them = its their own fault" argument.
Well she chose to be there because she though that it may have been what was best for the Empire, doesn't change the fact that she made the decision for herself by herself, and is partially responsible for her own death, at least as much as the one who gave the intel.
Yes, Theron gave the intell, after that she acted on her own free will. So putting all the blame on Theron for Malcom or Acina's death is also ridiculous...
She got some suspicious intel on a superweapon on Iokath and decided that it was a good idea to go there uninvited, while sneaking behind our back to do so, while Iokath was technically Alliance territory and she was supposed to be our ally, to be able to wipe out the Republic and maybe even the Alliance in the process.

I liked her during KOTET, that doesn't change the fact that we were forced to pick a side, i picked one even though if i really had it my way i'd have told both Acina and Malcom to get out of the Alliance territory when they were not invited (and we have valid reasons to reject both of them actually). And it doesn't change the fact that what she did while on Iokath was her own choice. Call it bad writing if you want, i won't contradict you on this, but we have the opportunity to call out to her several times, there are other characters who do it too, but she doesn't listen (note that all of this applies to Malcom as well if you side with the Empire..)

Costello's Avatar


Costello
01.17.2019 , 08:19 AM | #50
Quote: Originally Posted by Paulsutherland View Post
I'm sorry but the entire traitor arc leans towards him being a complete moron.

(Information from the Wiki as I don't want to replay the traitor arc any time soon.)

Links: Theron Shan, Order of Zildrog, Vinn Atrius, Zildrog

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Iokath - He reignited the war on Iokath just to get close to the Order of Zildrog.

So by this point he's already identified the leader of the Order, spoken to him and he knows about the order being responsible for the uprisings across the galaxy.

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Umbara - Vinn sends Theron to Umbara to pick up some crystals to prove himself useful to the Order of Zildrog.

Theron does so and this results in the death of many Umbarans who for whatever reason already have a grudge against the Alliance. So from their perspective, the Alliance just raided one of their convoy trains and killed several dozen of their soldiers.

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Copero - Theron is sent to find a map ... then gives it to the Order of Zildrog.

This is where I made up my mind ... He and Valss were the only ones to know of the exact location for this supposed super weapon. Valss is killed leaving Theron the only one who knows the exact location ... instead of telling the Alliance, he gives the information to the Order of Zildrog, turning them from an annoyance into a serious threat.

In addition the Alliance has just got involved in a Chiss internal conflict.

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Space Station - Theron and Lana

Theron and Lana have a super secret method of communication they invented on Rishi which only the two of them can understand ... That would have been useful to know... at the f*cking start of this mess! Couldn't he have just left Lana a coded message on a padd?!

As for the space station, we don't know how long the Order was operating from there, though they were there long enough to put their banners up all over the place ... couldn't he have maybe leaked the location to us?!

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Nathema - Theron wakes up Zildrog.

Now at this point I'm unsure on how much time has passed since Copero to Nathema but it's been long enough for the Order to set up a base while drilling into a temple. so I'm not sure what Theron's thought process was here. Wait and see what happens?

Having made it this far the Order recruits other people who have a grudge against the Player (Agent in this case) and these people blindly get fed to wake up Zildrog. Watcher II Why?!

Then Zildrog wakes up and uses the gravestone to destroy a bulk of the Eternal Fleet before being destroyed taking the Gravestone with it.
Well written.

Just want to add Theron is the one that sabotaged the Throne that almost killed you and left you one on one with Tyth.

Umbara made no sense, the reason for going was vague to pointless, not sure what we did with the crystals. But more so unless Theron was trying out for Bond Villain then even the order must have questioned this elaborate and highly unsucessful plan to kill you vs just placing a bomb on your shuttle and exploding it as soon as it hit light speed.

It was Therons contact in the short story that made it possible for them to find the location of the Star map on Copero. He made the entire thing possible and finding the location possible, all he had to do was give it to you and you could have got there first. So that made no sense, and since Gemini 16 couldn't download the map remotely she clearly couldn't see what he was doing he could have left it in tact and taken a fake map back. As for the Chiss Jedi, who knows what that was about, if his vision hadn't led him to sacrifice himself to allow Theron to escape you could have captured Theron and the map and gotten their first as well.

While Nathema showed that Theron was quick enough to shoot Vinn, so why didn't he just do it in the shuttle on route to Nathema or anytime he was alone with him. This would have achieved his goal and not assisted them in destroying the fleet.

As for the idea that Theron's death was for edgelords, what a derogatory term just because you don't like that it was an option. This game is based on killing people, be they npcs or pc's. The idea only edgelords kill anyone is ridiculous as you can't even get to that point without having killed a damn lot of NPCs. You have killed 100 of thousands of republic (or Imperial) personal and Jedi (sith), local security and definitely Chiss put in harms way by Therons actions. But his death is only for edgelords. Maybe if you think killing NPCs makes someone an edgelord, you have to ask have you killed any NPCs in the game. And if you have that makes you one, I think it makes everyone an edgelord. So the game is only for edgelords who see it as part of the game to kill NPCs and those that don't want to be an Edgelord need to find a different game to play, one without any killing in it.