I'm having trouble with deception in WZs. but I love playing him. so maybe this is the place to ask for some advice:

my spec is pretty straightforward 2/31/8: http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#200bZfhrRkfMRbkZf0c.2

my roto is pretty consistent: spike > 2x voltaic > shock > discharge or shock if it procs > 2x voltaic shock/maul if shock is down.

if the target is on the move, I'll force slow and throw an unbuffed shock/discharge

I keep recklessness on cd (as soon as my first 2x voltaic is done) and I try to overload saber when I'm into the voltaics or maul.

unless I get into extended fights (trying to burn down a healer alone, which never works), I don't have any problem with force management (I deprioritized maul in favor of shock). and that did up the dps a bit, but it still feels pretty weak. any tips?

also, I was in CW on our natural node at the opening of the match, and a fully optimized shadow wh came running in out of stealth, clearly hit me with his/her version of shock and maybe discharge. I was at half health before he even reached me. my gear is wh/bh; I'm at 18k hp. so I shouldn't exactly be a house of cards who gets floored in 4 hits, should I? I know the shadow was a hybrid. It was horrible though. whenever he would fight me (talking about you, Nataly!) I would drop to half health in 2 gcds.

the best I could do was shroud, sprint and cloak away. is there any particular way I should be dealing with one of those balance hybrids with the instant lift? they hit like a truck. I've never been hit so hard by a vg, a smasher or a dual wielder before.

I run my assassin again since 1.4, and have been pvp'n and downing folks with easy. 1v1 fights, I usually come out on top, and they have next to no health in about 8 seconds..I usually open with spike, then maul maybe a couple VS, crippling slash, maul, shock, if my electrocute is off cooldown i use that so i can get behind and maul again, force slow if needed...before i do this, i hit my recklnessness and overcharge saber in stealth..

With spike / slash / electrocute off cool down, you can stun folks while you smash their face in, in under 10 seconds

I'm having trouble with deception in WZs. but I love playing him. so maybe this is the place to ask for some advice:

 

my spec is pretty straightforward 2/31/8: http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#200bZfhrRkfMRbkZf0c.2

 

my roto is pretty consistent: spike > 2x voltaic > shock > discharge or shock if it procs > 2x voltaic shock/maul if shock is down.

 

if the target is on the move, I'll force slow and throw an unbuffed shock/discharge

 

I keep recklessness on cd (as soon as my first 2x voltaic is done) and I try to overload saber when I'm into the voltaics or maul.

 

unless I get into extended fights (trying to burn down a healer alone, which never works), I don't have any problem with force management (I deprioritized maul in favor of shock). and that did up the dps a bit, but it still feels pretty weak. any tips?

 

also, I was in CW on our natural node at the opening of the match, and a fully optimized shadow wh came running in out of stealth, clearly hit me with his/her version of shock and maybe discharge. I was at half health before he even reached me. my gear is wh/bh; I'm at 18k hp. so I shouldn't exactly be a house of cards who gets floored in 4 hits, should I? I know the shadow was a hybrid. It was horrible though. whenever he would fight me (talking about you, Nataly!) I would drop to half health in 2 gcds.

 

the best I could do was shroud, sprint and cloak away. is there any particular way I should be dealing with one of those balance hybrids with the instant lift? they hit like a truck. I've never been hit so hard by a vg, a smasher or a dual wielder before.

Its probably just a gear issue, just hang in there and things will start going your way. Couple of hints I could give you is pick your targets, Attack anything with 16k health or lower, 17k-18k health targets if they have light armor and run from anything 19k and above. Next just exploit the hell out of Dark Embrace. Use your black out talent 6 seconds after you come out of stealth, gives you 12 seconds of 50% increased damage reduction. Then Force Cloak and start your 12 seconds all over again. Last tip, Focus Fire. Use your team to your advantage follow a Mara or Jugg around and just attack their targets, this should keep you alive longer and give you a good feel for this spec and its rotations.

I've leveled a shadow & a sin as infiltration/deception, but I switched over to Tank spec for both of them. With the 1.4 changes, I tried that spec again, but after one week, i still switched back to Tank spec.

As a Sin Tank now, I purposely hunt down deception Sins, because they are still easy to kill. So, IMO, just try running a Sin Tank and you might never go back to the deception tree again.

p.s. if you do want to run a dps spec, you should try madness

I've leveled a shadow & a sin as infiltration/deception, but I switched over to Tank spec for both of them. With the 1.4 changes, I tried that spec again, but after one week, i still switched back to Tank spec.

 

As a Sin Tank now, I purposely hunt down deception Sins, because they are still easy to kill. So, IMO, just try running a Sin Tank and you might never go back to the deception tree again.

 

 

 

 

 

p.s. if you do want to run a dps spec, you should try madness

Well I kind of agree with you and kind of don't. When I am speced deception which is most of the time most sins running dark charge are not that good they just think running it makes them competitive for some reason, when I face a good darkness sin then the fight is much closer and are pretty fun fights.

As for madness the damage numbers are kind of skewed for me, I have hit 600k a few times with madness and yet to do so with deception but with madness you get a good chunk of your AoE from DF while deception is more single target burst. I find deception is more fun to play over madness but I do enjoy them both over the snooze fest that darkness is. My gear is more power/surge heavy at the moment but I kept all my crit mods/enhancements for when I want to switch over to madness.

Not saying darkness sucks, you can put out amazing numbers and protection and still after buffs to deception is the best build we have.

yeah. I have very little problem soloing ppl from stealth who are at my gear lvl or below. that wasn't really my issue. but...how often can I really complete a 1v1 before someone else shows up? it's frustratingly rare. I have to assume it's that I'm not pumping out enough dps for one reason or another. I'm usually on the verge of finishing one guy off until his reinforcements arrive.

I also don't think twice about taking on a tankasin (or any tank for that matter). it's the damn hybrids that spec into the shared tree that wreck me and I have no idea how to deal with them short of just stealthing away. :|

yeah. I have very little problem soloing ppl from stealth who are at my gear lvl or below. that wasn't really my issue. but...how often can I really complete a 1v1 before someone else shows up? it's frustratingly rare. I have to assume it's that I'm not pumping out enough dps for one reason or another. I'm usually on the verge of finishing one guy off until his reinforcements arrive.

 

I also don't think twice about taking on a tankasin (or any tank for that matter). it's the damn hybrids that spec into the shared tree that wreck me and I have no idea how to deal with them short of just stealthing away. :|

Well for tank sins watch for the proc to energize, that's one of the hardest hitting abilities and when you should use shroud. When they hit shroud hit them with low slash and wait. Kite them around you have better burst than them but they have as much dps as you so what usually it comes down to is your burst vs there defenses and armor rating.

I'm having trouble with deception in WZs. but I love playing him. so maybe this is the place to ask for some advice:

 

my spec is pretty straightforward 2/31/8: http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#200bZfhrRkfMRbkZf0c.2

 

my roto is pretty consistent: spike > 2x voltaic > shock > discharge or shock if it procs > 2x voltaic shock/maul if shock is down.

 

if the target is on the move, I'll force slow and throw an unbuffed shock/discharge

 

I keep recklessness on cd (as soon as my first 2x voltaic is done) and I try to overload saber when I'm into the voltaics or maul.

 

unless I get into extended fights (trying to burn down a healer alone, which never works), I don't have any problem with force management (I deprioritized maul in favor of shock). and that did up the dps a bit, but it still feels pretty weak. any tips?

 

also, I was in CW on our natural node at the opening of the match, and a fully optimized shadow wh came running in out of stealth, clearly hit me with his/her version of shock and maybe discharge. I was at half health before he even reached me. my gear is wh/bh; I'm at 18k hp. so I shouldn't exactly be a house of cards who gets floored in 4 hits, should I? I know the shadow was a hybrid. It was horrible though. whenever he would fight me (talking about you, Nataly!) I would drop to half health in 2 gcds.

 

the best I could do was shroud, sprint and cloak away. is there any particular way I should be dealing with one of those balance hybrids with the instant lift? they hit like a truck. I've never been hit so hard by a vg, a smasher or a dual wielder before.

Foxmob when looking at your spec you have wasted points imo... You should have 2 in entropic field for the 6% dmg reduction with 3 stacks and 1 in resourcefulness to reduce the cd on overcharge saber for more burst opportunities and longer survivability. Static Cling and Magnetism are not worth putting points in when you can get that kind of dmg reduction and a shorter dps cd.

As far as all this talk about Tank Spec and Madness is concerned....Deception has the best burst/single target dps bar none. In a 1vs1 it can take down anything its a matter of managing your cd's. When another assassin gets jump on you they have an advantage just like a rogue in a 1 vs 1, but its not impossible to turn the tables.

cycao gave you good tips on what to look for and low slashing when they have shroud up is important although it can get dodged its extremely useful. I rarely open with spike in a 1 on 1 because the 3 cc's I would rather use before they hit full resolve is Low Slash > Electrocute and Force cloaking into Mind Snap to Seethe back HP. (Also good in the event someone else shows up to mind snap them and finish your target or exit) Its also better if your trying to escape and use electrocute> if they break it you can still low slash them into a whirlwind for easy get away. Again this is 1 vs 1 scenario.

what do you do for accuracy? I'm at like 111% force acc atm and ~101% melee. I'm still picking up gear so I don't pay much attention to min/max yet, but isn't maul melee and shock force? seems like i'm wasting acc but then don't have enough between the two core attacks.

edit: re static cling et all, I do think that's a good idea. I went with the "pvp" build and the "pray I have a healer" mentality. I'll definitely play with that though. I hadn't even considered taking points away from there. I was so consternated as to why noxxic would leave 6% maul dmg for a reduced cd on overcharge. but your suggestion keeps both.

When they hit shroud hit them with low slash and wait.

Hold on a second. When I pop Force Shroud, you'll then hit me with low slash and wait?? You do realize that Force Shroud protects from all force and tech attacks right? Your low slash won't work on a Sin that's popped it.....

http://www.torhead.com/ability/3qAwuaY/force-shroud

Hold on a second. When I pop Force Shroud, you'll then hit me with low slash and wait?? You do realize that Force Shroud protects from all force and tech attacks right? Your low slash won't work on a Sin that's popped it.....

 

http://www.torhead.com/ability/3qAwuaY/force-shroud

Actually low slash is a white damage weapon attack, and it definitely works on shroud, which only prevents yellow damage (usually stuns being yellow tech/force). Pretty funny really, to see a shrouded assassin mezzed through low slash.

http://www.torhead.com/ability/hnwIOeC/low-slash

The only problem is that it is subject to defense rolls, and can be dodged. This is why most others stuns are yellow, so that defensive rolls won't apply. Luckily low slash is white, and somewhat of an exception.

Hold on a second. When I pop Force Shroud, you'll then hit me with low slash and wait?? You do realize that Force Shroud protects from all force and tech attacks right? Your low slash won't work on a Sin that's popped it.....

 

http://www.torhead.com/ability/3qAwuaY/force-shroud

Shroud does negate all force and tech attacks...low slash is weapon damage;)

The difference you are encountering isn't WH vs BM it's min/maxed gear vs un min/maxed. Remove all crit/accuracy and go full power/surge. Then when u open with recklessness you'll burn tons of HP in a hurry.

Also I agree that your spec should change IMO, the 6% dam reduction is very important. Also, use maul more. A deception sin should always have 3 points in it, and use maul whenever exploit weakness procs. It's that good. My biggest hit since 1.4, 7430 on a sentinel, on fully geared players consistently 5.2-6.2k on crits.

The difference you are encountering isn't WH vs BM it's min/maxed gear vs un min/maxed. Remove all crit/accuracy and go full power/surge. Then when u open with recklessness you'll burn tons of HP in a hurry.

Also I agree that your spec should change IMO, the 6% dam reduction is very important. Also, use maul more. A deception sin should always have 3 points in it, and use maul whenever exploit weakness procs. It's that good. My biggest hit since 1.4, 7430 on a sentinel, on fully geared players consistently 5.2-6.2k on crits.

hehe sexy.

I made the spec change already. haven't noticed a huge survivability increase, but that's usually cuz I end up targeted by 2 opponents. it's going to be a while before I can dump acc though. all the stalker gear seems to be loaded up on it. at one point, when I had a mix of legacy wh + bm/recruit, my force acc was 115%

about that sans acc approach though, is that going to affect maul? I can't figure out if that counts as force or simply melee.

The difference you are encountering isn't WH vs BM it's min/maxed gear vs un min/maxed. Remove all crit/accuracy and go full power/surge. Then when u open with recklessness you'll burn tons of HP in a hurry.

Also I agree that your spec should change IMO, the 6% dam reduction is very important. Also, use maul more. A deception sin should always have 3 points in it, and use maul whenever exploit weakness procs. It's that good. My biggest hit since 1.4, 7430 on a sentinel, on fully geared players consistently 5.2-6.2k on crits.

Well you want some crit, I believe my crit is around 30% buffed with 78% surge and just under 1100 for power with 1950ish expertise.

Well you want some crit, I believe my crit is around 30% buffed with 78% surge and just under 1100 for power with 1950ish expertise.

Yea sorry, I gear will all power but forget I have the crit/surge implants. If you have the power/acc implants you're right a couple crit mods would be useful.

Edit: and I think you mean 1250ish exp. I run about the same but less power probably have more endurance for the survivability as I spend most my time doing some darkness tanking.

Imo deception is in a great place right now especially with all the rage/focus specs running loose!

30% aoe damage reduction always/Additional 25% on demand/6% from entropic field/2% from sith defiance = OMG

I think the biggest smash I've seen on me was for 3.2k.

Also I would take points out of the spike slow and put them in entropic field. The slow is okay but overall it's too easily countered. You can't counter 6% damage reduction.

Yea sorry, I gear will all power but forget I have the crit/surge implants. If you have the power/acc implants you're right a couple crit mods would be useful.

 

Edit: and I think you mean 1250ish exp. I run about the same but less power probably have more endurance for the survivability as I spend most my time doing some darkness tanking.

Actually I meant was 1150ish...its monday.

To be honest assassins are in a great place period in pvp right now. There is no other class that has the number of builds that assassins have to chose from that are viable in pvp. I ran deception for a while in pvp and it really is fantastic single target burst. With proper cd management and gear you can easily lay down 15-20k damage in one rotation. Right now I'm back to my deception-madness 0/14/27 hybrid just because I find it so hard to not have instant ww both for 2v1s and to stop them from node capping. One of the main advantages is having two 30m abilities. Also with duplicity, induction, and unearthed knowledge my maul hits like a truck. Overall assassins are great for pvp in most specs. Hopefully they keep rage op for a while so assassins can keep owning =)

Also rynis I'm also on JC, Zaknafien, you do great damage

To be honest assassins are in a great place period in pvp right now. There is no other class that has the number of builds that assassins have to chose from that are viable in pvp. I ran deception for a while in pvp and it really is fantastic single target burst. With proper cd management and gear you can easily lay down 15-20k damage in one rotation. Right now I'm back to my deception-madness 0/14/27 hybrid just because I find it so hard to not have instant ww both for 2v1s and to stop them from node capping. One of the main advantages is having two 30m abilities. Also with duplicity, induction, and unearthed knowledge my maul hits like a truck. Overall assassins are great for pvp in most specs. Hopefully they keep rage op for a while so assassins can keep owning =)

 

Also rynis I'm also on JC, Zaknafien, you do great damage

I wouldn't go as far to say assassins are in a great place. We're in an ok place, definitely a lot better than pre-1.4 but they still don't excel at any given role. That's part of the reason why we have all these different hybrid builds, our pure builds don't quite compete with other ACs with similar roles.

Imo deception is in a great place right now especially with all the rage/focus specs running loose!

 

30% aoe damage reduction always/Additional 25% on demand/6% from entropic field/2% from sith defiance = OMG

 

I think the biggest smash I've seen on me was for 3.2k.

 

Also let's not forget going 1v1 against the massive influx of assault vanguards/PT pyros. When I see a lone PT pyro guarding a turret in civil war, I giggle, because 10 seconds later the turret is mine. Shroud is just so brutal against PT pyros... and deception burst takes em down quick. We don't even have to be perfect, because we get tons of stuns (spike, low slash, electrocute before his resolve is full) to make him ineffective if we make mistakes.

On my PT pyro, assassins are the class I fear the most due to shroud and force slow, and anni maras next due to their slows (rupture and leg slash). Well and snipers, but that is obvious.

I wouldn't go as far to say assassins are in a great place. We're in an ok place, definitely a lot better than pre-1.4 but they still don't excel at any given role. That's part of the reason why we have all these different hybrid builds, our pure builds don't quite compete with other ACs with similar roles.

Lol...you must not be very good.

Assasins EXCELL at defending a node

Assasins EXCELL at 1v1 fights

Deception Assasins probably have the best burst in the game considering the target is stunned for half of it.

Also...your theory about hybrid builds doesn't make a lick of sense.

You want to take some points into Entropic field for a 6% damage reduction. Just take the points out of your voltaic slash damage increase and put them into Entropic Field. Reasoning behind this is that Voltaic slash is a decent damage dealer, but your main damage is coming from the procs it gives you, rather than voltaic slash itself. If you'd rather not do that, put your points into armor penetration rather than damage increase, because that gives a better dps increase.

In 1v1 situations my rotation goes like this:

>Spinning kick / Spike

> Clairvoyant strike / Voltaic slash or Shadow strike / Maul if that is proc'd. Shadow strike in preference.

> Low slash

> Mind crush / Crushing darkness

If he uses his CC breaker at this point, you need to make a decision. If it's near the end of the cast keep on with it, if it's not, break the cast and go on with the rest of the rotation.

> Clairvoyant strike / Voltaic slash until 2 procs

> Force stun if he's not got a defensive cooldown up (this will fill his resolve at this point)

> Force potency / Recklessness

> Project / Shock

> Force breach / discharge.

> Spinning strike

If at any point Shadow strike / Maul procs, use it. If he's dpsing you down fast, use your force shroud and cloak out before you die, wait for his resolve to end (shouldn't be long if at all) and open up again with a spike if it's off CD, or a low slash followed by a Crushing Darkness cast.

This ought to get a kill when you use it, and of course, in many v many situations, just go nuts with your normal rotation and pray they don't focus target you. If you get someone following you about, turn around and low slash him, switch back to your original target and carry on as before.

While I'll agree with some of your 1vs1 rotation I disagree with a few things. I don't see why you would open with spike its not worth the resolve, and when your vanishing on a full resolved opponent your giving them more time to knock you out of stealth to pressure you even more. Just start with VT x2, low slash then take your pick of maul/crushing darkness depending on proc. As the fight goes on if your getting out dps'd and in trouble you want to be able to vanish > mind trap them instantly if their stun breaker has been used which at this point it should have been. Seethe back health and your now back in control of the fight. Thats just how I do it though.... To each his own

Also you said when resolve is gone you reopen with spike/low slash> crushing darkness. If your at full force and they are that ahead why not maul spam some of the force into a low slash to catch up faster and use black out while regening force back during the daze???

Lol...you must not be very good.

 

Assasins EXCELL at defending a node

 

Assasins EXCELL at 1v1 fights

 

Deception Assasins probably have the best burst in the game considering the target is stunned for half of it.

 

Also...your theory about hybrid builds doesn't make a lick of sense.

1) yes, we're good at defending nodes, that alone doesn't make us a great class.

2) 1v1s are meaningless in team-based objective playstyle, which is what we have with WZs.

3) Deception burst is very easy to see coming and extremely easy to counter.

4) If we need hybrid builds to accomplish what our pure builds should be doing, then our pure builds aren't performing up to par.