Please upgrade your browser for the best possible experience.

Chrome Firefox Internet Explorer
×

Class Balance in 6.0 (Question)

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Classes
Class Balance in 6.0 (Question)

rolandps's Avatar


rolandps
10.09.2018 , 08:44 AM | #11
Quote: Originally Posted by memerobot View Post
Just lower the CD on defensives on PT but not too much or there will be abuse in PvP.
Example: Pyro PT, if constantly attacked and kept alive, can have Kolto Overload every 39-42s. Imagine Pyro PT with a 30s or less CD on this. If it is lowered this much, I am pretty sure you would not like it.
I main PyroTech PT in PvP (Team and Solo Ranked). Doesn't matter, here are the facts:
Advanced Prototype can have 40 seconds CD on Energy Shield if attacked constantly.
PyroTech can have 26,66 seconds CD on Kolto Overload if attacked constantly.
Do not lower CDs even more, they need something more. Snipers have 6 dcds. Pyro has 2. Check out my PowerTech thread in PvP forums http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=951936
autismftw

WayOfTheWarriorx's Avatar


WayOfTheWarriorx
10.09.2018 , 12:06 PM | #12
Quote: Originally Posted by Maxitrac View Post
Few things I think need to be done with 6.0 imo are:
1) Nerf fury dps output for pve... it’s supposed to be a pvp burst spec and carnage/anni are the primary pve specs. Currently it’s overused and overpowered for the brain power it needs to play.
2) Arsenal needs barrage proc back. The lack of the barrage proc has killed a spec. Arsenal is now days not wanted in nim content.... it can barely parse over 9k on a lucky parse. Arsenal shouldn’t be what it was but it needs to be a little better than what it currently is.
3) *this isn’t really a nerf/buff but is still balancing. Fix tank relics. Currently they’re almost useless in pve and pvp, they give very little benefit to make them worth while to take over dps relics.
4) nerf pyro dps output. Pyro is an extremely easy spec to play and really shouldn’t be capable of parsing 11k on a dummy. It should be reduced to the same level of AP.
5) Either an overall nerf to melee dps specs or a overall buff to ranged to pit them on the same level of dps.
6) Give sorc some love for once. I’m 100% sure all of those sorc players out there are sick of being bottom dps and being laughed at for playing sorc dps.
7) give pt an extra cool down for both pve and pvp. They’re a glass cannon in pvp at the moment and just get melted too easily. PVE on the other hand PT Tanks have little to no dcds compared to other specs and on average will take more dtps than that on a sin having a 70% dr for a few seconds every 14ish seconds.
8) Add a interupt immunity to operative healer stim boost.
9) Give. Sin. Phasewalk. Back.
10) Finally, bring back clipping for carnage and undo the changes that were done a few patches ago to carnage.
That’s just what I think should be done come 6.0 with the classes to make everything more balanced.
I don't want to be rude here [mostly because I don't want to get banned again so soon =p ]but I have no idea how someone with many of your opinions could clear so much NiM, but, you must have some really good raid group members to whom you should be greatful. That said, I don't disagree with all your points, it's just that the ones that I do disagree with they are so glaringly misplaced. Because I don't want you to be overly critical I'm going to include where I do agree.

1 - I agree Fury DPS is far too strong at the moment especially considering it's utility. I feel bad about this because it has been the under dog of the specs for so long, but, it always did have at very least great PVP utility that in many ways made up for it;s lower DPS in uptime. I'm not sure any spec should be designed for only pvp or only pvp, but as things stand right now, it is better in PVP and PVE in every single way than Carnage and in most ways than Anni. That is has better DPS than Carnage and Anni is a glaring issue, especially the amount between itself and Carnage. Carnage was always the quasi-burst spec and Fury the burst spec and it should be so again. It ripped Carnage's identity from it, some of it's abilties, and even still has better burst than even Carnage. I don't want to see it made terrible, but it should have lower DPS than the other two [although not necessarily by a wide margin like now]. Fury is the best spec in both PVE and PVP now.

2 - Unfortunately because you have to balance classes with one stroke in this meta [due to sharing gear of both PVE and PVP] I do not feel at all bad about Arsenal's current position, it's a rDPS spec and should have lower DPS than melee and it's DCDs are so god awfully broken and OP it should have amongst the worst DPS in the game. DPS specs should not be able to do the kind of healing they can now. Arsenal is capable of healing 1 mill + in WZs, any spec that can do that should have garbage DPS. [ergo, it's not alone in this regard tho]. It's OP af in PVP [which is why we need to have class balancing that can differ between PVE and PVP so a spec can be adjusted only in the area of play where it's needed. It's OP nature is notably less in PVE than in PVP].

3 - I leave that with better minds on the subject than my own.

4 - Disagreed. It's a sustained spec and thus it would make no sense to have DPS comparable to the same classes burst spec. I will say this tho, this game does not adhere to the norms of what sustained/burst specs normally do in general in MMOs and even Bant himself who's work almost the entire player base respects and adheres to [build wise] pointed this out. You have burst specs with dots [Lightning] and sustained specs with massive burst attacks [Ann i.e.].

5 - I can't imagine the amount of crack you smoked that brought you to this utterly wrong conclusion. This is a ranged meta up and down and even if it wasn't that principle would still be wrong. Custom dictates that melee must have higher dps than ranged due to greater up time, being less prone to damage [because they are wussies and fight from 5 blocks away] and can adjust to mechanics with greater ease and still be able to DPS properly unlike melee whom any time they need to get more than 4m away, must stop DPSing no matter what.

You are a NiM level player so it would be impossible for you to come to this conclusion having done Revan HM, TOS Coritanni and Master/Blaster HM, Styrak NiM, TFB NiM, DP/DF NiM.

If there is no difference in uptime and safety between ranged and melee, stop standing so friggen far from the boss all the time, stand right next to the melee all the time and stop DPSing anytime you have to go further than 4 m from your target like melee do.

That said, you clearly have no experience in PVP as this perspective is glaringly wrong as well in PVP, even more so than in PVE. Try fighting a merc or a Sniper as a melee who isn't Fury when they are constantly slowing you, doing knockbacks, rooting and rolling you, and can maintain distance so that there are times when they are able to DPS you for 5+ seconds and keep you out of melee ranged. Plasma Problem alone can do this to 5 melee at once and have a constant aoe on them.

Ranged couldn't have it more there way. Mercs and Snipers rule PVP and are broken AF.

Admittedly, this is more of an issue in PVP than PVE, but that doesn't make it any less true.

2 plus years and people are still ************ in big numbers about mercs and snipers in PVP and rightly so. [Mercs and Sniper players excluded of course, due the math on that one].

6 - Sorcs are not bottom DPS and they haven't been for quite a long time now. That distinction belongs to Arsenal and Marksman. The problem with Sorc DPS has nothing to do with Sorcs and everything to do with Mercs and Snipers. Are Sorcs overall in a worse place than Mercs and Snipers, hell yes they are, but that is because Mercs and Snipers are too strong and should be more like Sorcs who are currently the only Ranged DPS that adhere to proper rDPS design. You shouldn't be able to face tank three opponents at once for 30 seconds straight as a ranged and be fine.

While Lightning can use some adjusting, Madness is a dirt easy dot spead class that can put out high numbers and rediculous amounts of healing at the same time. Any dps spec that can heal upwards of 1mill + in a wz and still put out high DPS should in fact have garbage DPS. "Fluff" damage is still damage and you don't give better burst to sustained specs that kinda defeats the definition of a sustained spec in the first friggen place. Damage is damage, a healer can't make a distinction and must heal it all the same. If you have 5 k health left it doesn't matter if you get hit with a dot that does 5k or a burst attack that does 20, you are equally dead. - Furthmore, if you don't have to hit the target again to do more damage and you can do damage to a target while it is no longer in striking range, you're a wussie. If you increase damage on a sustain spec, that doesn't do anything to mitigate that fluff damage it just adds more on top of it and they already do more overall than burst.

Evening Lightning needs to be adjust very carefully. Why? Here's why -
It can go thru two burst cycles in the same time most other burst specs go thru one burst cycle. It's main burst attack is not mitigated by armor at all. It has 35' attack range which means it can be in attack range of most other ranged even that cannot attack back. It has insane amounts of mobility and utility and is one of the most effective specs in the game vs melee due to its ability to slow and root. It can kite melee as good as an engineering sniper. Lastly, it can heal ridiculous amounts and thus it's DPS should be garbage. If it wants to trade some of that healing for more DPS fine. But, as one of the classes than can heal 1+ mill in a WZ, it should have garbage dps.

I'm not saying it shouldn't be adjusted mind you, it should be, but carefully, and it's DPS should not put it ahead of melee DPS. That goes for all comparative ranged. But yes, adjust it, but do so carefully. The last thing this game needs is another broken Ranged class. At least now it is currently the only ranged class that adheres to the standard rDPS to mDPS standard. Ranged should do less DPS than melee.

I love sorcs and I would take a sorc as a partner over all other class in the game. They are useful as all hell and have a ton of utility. That said, yeah, they are a support class, which is what makes them special. Some might not like that notion, but it is what it is and there are support class minded classes in every mmo. That's why it tends to have lower DPS because it has so many other useful abilities that other classes don't. If you want to be a DPS hound [which I can totally appreciate] don't play a Sorc that's not what they are built for. Healer spec, DPS spec, I don't care. I want a sorc as my partner always.


7 - Agreed, what PTs need is an extra new DCD. It should, however, be along the lines of Saberward, it's a mDPS spec and should have a mdps DCD. No DPS spec should have DCDs like mercs have, not even mercs.

8 - No, you don't add abilties to stims, that's not what they are for, they are for raising two stats. If you give one class an added ability to a stim, it's pretty clear you know damn well you are trying to sneak something in under the radar. If Operatives get an added abiltity on their stim so should every other class. Additionally, stims aren't class related, healers use the same stims as DPS so, if you do as you suggest than you just gave DPS Operatives 100% interupt immunity and everyone else who uses that stim for that matter as stims are not class specific.

9 - I leave that to better minds to determine whether or not that is necessary/appropriate. I do however feel that there is something to the notion that they had it first, which isn't to say that maybe it could be too much with other things they have, I'm really not sure so I won't take a position, but, I am at least sympathetic to them on the subject.

10 - As someone who has played Carnage for the last 6 and half years straight exclusively, I am in total agreement on this point. It has had it's identity ripped from it, and it's playstyle. It has always been a high risk/high reward class and understood to be one of the most skill intensive specs in the game, sometimes it worked out well for you, sometimes it hurt you, but that was at the very heart of it's design and idenitity. It's the fastest spec in the game and it is as of those changes a spec that incurs a flat out DPS loss if it uses the high alacrity build. That build is only good on a dummy. - Carnage has been the quasi-DPS spec of Marauders forever and that is how the devs referred to them. With 5.x, it has been nerfed more than any other spec in the game and is the only spec in the game that suffered two unilateral DPS nerfs back to back and lost almost 900 DPS combined. It doesn't play the same, it doesn't feel the same, and worst of all, as a pure DPS class spec, with no heals and no CC immunity and essentially does nothing but swing lightsabers, it has the worst overall DPS of any melee DPS spec in the entire game. It has no off role abilities like virtually every other DPS spec [taunts, guards, heals, off heals, cleanses, perma-stealth, raising people from the dead in combat]. Carnage has sorc level DPS.

11k burst attacks. I can sneeze more damage than that.

Lastly, agree with you, 5.x is a bust, no sense doing anything now. Leave it til 6.0 as they always change up the DPS order of things in every meta.

We all see things through rose collared glasses at times so even wherein there are vast differences of opinion on things, we really should recognize this fact and be a bit more forgiving with differences of opinion. I may disagree with some of your stances, but, what we see what we see, and that's not always the same thing. We should be kinder to each other than sometimes we are, so I will apologize to you for some of my earlier comments and hope you will accept.

AdjeYo's Avatar


AdjeYo
10.09.2018 , 12:35 PM | #13
Quote: Originally Posted by WayOfTheWarriorx View Post
5 - I can't imagine the amount of crack you smoked that brought you to this utterly wrong conclusion. This is a ranged meta up and down and even if it wasn't that principle would still be wrong. Custom dictates that melee must have higher dps than ranged due to greater up time, being less prone to damage [because they are wussies and fight from 5 blocks away] and can adjust to mechanics with greater ease and still be able to DPS properly unlike melee whom any time they need to get more than 4m away, must stop DPSing no matter what.

You are a NiM level player so it would be impossible for you to come to this conclusion having done Revan HM, TOS Coritanni and Master/Blaster HM, Styrak NiM, TFB NiM, DP/DF NiM.

If there is no difference in uptime and safety between ranged and melee, stop standing so friggen far from the boss all the time, stand right next to the melee all the time and stop DPSing anytime you have to go further than 4 m from your target like melee do.

That said, you clearly have no experience in PVP as this perspective is glaringly wrong as well in PVP, even more so than in PVE. Try fighting a merc or a Sniper as a melee who isn't Fury when they are constantly slowing you, doing knockbacks, rooting and rolling you, and can maintain distance so that there are times when they are able to DPS you for 5+ seconds and keep you out of melee ranged. Plasma Problem alone can do this to 5 melee at once and have a constant aoe on them.

Ranged couldn't have it more there way. Mercs and Snipers rule PVP and are broken AF.

Admittedly, this is more of an issue in PVP than PVE, but that doesn't make it any less true.
I think the big difference here is the PvE/PvP perspective, and as such the sneers at him having these opinions while doing NiM OPs seem rather misplaced. When it comes to operations, melee dps are in a great place compared their ranged counterparts. The damage difference right now is way too huge.

Quote:
2 plus years and people are still ************ in big numbers about mercs and snipers in PVP and rightly so. [Mercs and Sniper players excluded of course, due the math on that one].

6 - Sorcs are not bottom DPS and they haven't been for quite a long time now. That distinction belongs to Arsenal and Marksman. The problem with Sorc DPS has nothing to do with Sorcs and everything to do with Mercs and Snipers. Are Sorcs overall in a worse place than Mercs and Snipers, hell yes they are, but that is because Mercs and Snipers are too strong and should be more like Sorcs who are currently the only Ranged DPS that adhere to proper rDPS design. You shouldn't be able to face tank three opponents at once for 30 seconds straight as a ranged and be fine.
Madness (or Sadness as it's aptly nicknamed) is in a terrible place when it comes to dps compared to similar specs. Virulence (which as semi-sustained spec should parse lower than Madness according to Bioware) deals significantly more dps, IO is also quite far ahead, even Engineering edges out over Madness (and Engineering is already mostly shunned in PvE).
As for lightning, sure it deals more damage than Arsenal and Marksmanship, but that's because they all do pathetically little dps, sure their place on the dps ranking is fine, but the actual dps difference on that ranking is way too big.

xMaranathax's Avatar


xMaranathax
10.09.2018 , 01:14 PM | #14
Just throwing my $0.02 in here.

General Improvements
1. Get rid of off heals and off tanking mechanics for DPS specializations. DPS Specializations shouldn't be able to taunt, guard, nor heal in any regard. DPS should DPS. If we keep this, why not gray the lines more and add healing to tanking? Reminiscent of the Kinetic Combat pre 2.0 with the heals on Telekinetic Throw.

2. Bump up tank damage slightly. Tanks were hit hard in a recent patch that was aimed at taking away skank tank (hybrid tanks). This did no such thing, and only made running full mitigation mods and enhancements a joke. Though the recent adjustment to shield and crit, tanks are more resilient now, their damage is still sub par. I recommend changing the code behind the scenes so the attack abilities are based off tank stats, such as defense, shield, and absorb, opposed to the dps stats such as power, critical, and alacrity.

3. Require tanks to gear in tank gear. Not sure how you could do this, but this would kill off the skank tanks. Require that as soon as a tank specs into a tanking specialization, require that only tanking gear can be equipped.

Class specific (only the ones I see need help)
1. PT/VGs need some love. An additional DCD and reworking of the current would be beneficial. They need more survivability, even at the expense of DPS. Bring back the 30m range for PT/VG. Even if it is one ability like it was with Full Auto, it was at least something. Having a skill set similar to that of Hatred Assassins/Serenity Shadows would be ideal.

2. Mercenary/Commando DCDs need to be nerfed. I am including the off heals as part of their "DCDs" in this, so removing the off heals would help at the least. Reflect, with a heal to full, with a damage reduction is just too much for one class.

3. I cannot believe I am saying this now, because I was one who cursed for them to be nerfed, but please buff damage output for Sage and Sorcs. They need more offensive love.

4. Nerf the survivability of Snipers and Gunslingers. They are currently mini-tanks and put out too much damage for being able to survive so much.

Talyc'jatne
Aliit ori'shya tal'din

RACATW's Avatar


RACATW
10.09.2018 , 01:24 PM | #15
Fyi sorc and lightning damage is the only class I ever struggle with on my tank. They can melt tanks as is.

Pt doesnt count since its weak under pressure.

xMaranathax's Avatar


xMaranathax
10.09.2018 , 01:42 PM | #16
Quote: Originally Posted by RACATW View Post
Fyi sorc and lightning damage is the only class I ever struggle with on my tank. They can melt tanks as is.

Pt doesnt count since its weak under pressure.
If they are Madness, that's their purpose. All that Internal/Elemental (I/E) damage ignores your tank stats.

Talyc'jatne
Aliit ori'shya tal'din

SiegePro's Avatar


SiegePro
10.09.2018 , 03:35 PM | #17
Quote: Originally Posted by xMaranathax View Post
2. Bump up tank damage slightly. Tanks were hit hard in a recent patch that was aimed at taking away skank tank (hybrid tanks). This did no such thing, and only made running full mitigation mods and enhancements a joke. Though the recent adjustment to shield and crit, tanks are more resilient now, their damage is still sub par. I recommend changing the code behind the scenes so the attack abilities are based off tank stats, such as defense, shield, and absorb, opposed to the dps stats such as power, critical, and alacrity.

3. Require tanks to gear in tank gear. Not sure how you could do this, but this would kill off the skank tanks. Require that as soon as a tank specs into a tanking specialization, require that only tanking gear can be equipped.
The easiest way to require tanks to gear up in tank gear is to, wait for it, get rid of tank specific stats.

Instead, when you go to a tank spec, Accuracy changes from affecting accuracy to improving your shield chance, Power changes to improving your Defense chance and Crit to your Absorb Chance. Remove shields as an item and build their base defense and absorb into the spec so every spec now uses the same offhand item.

This removes the ability to skank tank, but also removes the need to maintain two sets of gear if you're changing specs a lot (ex. I generally respec to DPS when I'm doing heroics or other easier content) so its a win-win.

* * * *

That said; I would absolutely LOVE some way to use tank spec abilities for DPS in some cases. Its a ***** to use a tank build on solo content because your lack of DPS just slows everything to a crawl. Its also a pain to switch specs all the time because you have to swap out your gear, re-select your talents, rearrange your tray AND remember to switch back to a tank build before you open any command crates you end up with so you don't end up getting dps gear instead of the higher tank gear you actually need for group content. While making the suggested changes above would eliminate the need to swap gear and switch back when opening command crates, re-selecting talents and rearranging your tray would remain a pain.

Also, Sin/Shadow tanks feel like a perfect "gish" build where they're equally mixing saber strike with lightning/TK. The fact that Vanguard Tank rotations neither require you to giggle like an idiot every six seconds nor are they DoT dependent makes it by far my favorite of the three Vanguard specs if they could actually move through solo/heroic content at something like the rate that a DPS could.

So maybe the tank specs could get some sort of non-combat toggle (i.e. can't be turned on or off while in combat so you can 'respec' between fights, but not during, say, a burn phase to help with dps, then switch back to being a tank during the same fight) that drops your armor and defense chances back to normal and changes Absorb to 0% (since some spec mechanics trigger on a successful shield, so keep the success trigger, but it doesn't actually stop any extra damage) in exchange for returning your damage to normal (or even just closer to normal)?

Just some random thoughts.

Lalainnia's Avatar


Lalainnia
10.10.2018 , 05:08 AM | #18
For starters right off the bat I'd remove the 6p auto crits from every single piece of set bonus gear and replace them with something actually meaningful.

Then pretty much every class/spec could use some fine tuning, One thing for sure is to not actually remove abilities experienced that once here and experienced it with BFA for Wow and it's a horrible thing.

2 top priorities for me personally would be to reduce the the reflect cap again because it's honestly insane what some classes are capable of doing in certain nim ops at the same time it's almost required for some nim fights and the overall ability to reflect stuff is fun ( Yes I consider standing in FIRE and hitting 1 button to do all the damages as fun). My second priority would be for them to rework the whole debuff nonsense that each different spec provides because honestly the most important one is really just sundered.


On a more personal level towards class balance I'm just going to state something towards Bodyguards and Combat Medics because I don't feel like typing something for each Specialization and they all need something. (Minus Ruffian tbh)

Revert the duration, healing, and resource nerf on Super Charged Gas/ Cells and switch back the cast times of Advanced Medical Probe and Medial Probe/ Rapid Scan and Healing Scan.
Donna-Commando-Combat Medic
When we care for others our own strength to live increases. When we help people expand their state of life, our lives also expand. Actions to benefit others are not separate from actions to benefit oneself.

memerobot's Avatar


memerobot
10.10.2018 , 05:17 AM | #19
Quote: Originally Posted by rolandps View Post
Advanced Prototype can have 40 seconds CD on Energy Shield if attacked constantly.
PyroTech can have 26,66 seconds CD on Kolto Overload if attacked constantly.
Do not lower CDs even more, they need something more. Snipers have 6 dcds. Pyro has 2.
Well, what do you propose? The original idea would be giving the missiles heal utility back up to 5% each or higher, and give them more missiles than they already have and -15s up to -30s on their CD. Standard atm is 4(7 if PT) and perhaps bump them up to 6 missiles(9 if AP?). I can't recall the CD but I believe its 2 minutes?

rolandps's Avatar


rolandps
10.10.2018 , 08:00 AM | #20
Quote: Originally Posted by memerobot View Post
Well, what do you propose? The original idea would be giving the missiles heal utility back up to 5% each or higher, and give them more missiles than they already have and -15s up to -30s on their CD. Standard atm is 4(7 if PT) and perhaps bump them up to 6 missiles(9 if AP?). I can't recall the CD but I believe its 2 minutes?
My point was about lowering DCD CDs of existing DCDs (Kolto Overload and Energy Shield). Lowering those DCDs would be an easy solution but not really fix it and AP would have 50% uptime of energy shield.

About healing on shoulder canons: Yes, add it. 5% each missle, 7 missles loaded for all 3 specs and back to 0,5 or at least 1,0 seconds CD for them. Give PTs something, just anything, or remove them from the game.
autismftw