Group Finder

almost all of us were happy to see more options in group finder, and finally some love for mini Operations that were Orphaned before before. Unfortunately the bonuses and schedules exposed 3 absolutely necessary changes.

1. Problem: Full group are forced into random content to recieve rewards, despite no benift to them or anyone else
   
   • working around this silly restriction has not only been a massive headache for full groups but also disheartening for for partial groups that get repeatedly rejected while in queue due to it.
     
   • Solution: Allow full groups to queue for specific content to take advantage of transport and cyclic offerings and credit them for doing the cyclic content of their choice.
     

[*]Problem: Conversion to Operations groups requires all members to be outside of a phased instance, including strongholds

• Solution: only check that group leader is outside of a phase. normal transport rules apply.
  

[*]Problem: Group memebers randomly assigned to different instances when moving to new locations

• This is especially problematic for Veteran Flashpoints, which require turn ins, but also applies to other groups such as world bosses. This used to work.... now it absolutely does not.
  
• Solution: find a way to reinstate the block logic for groups to end up at the same instance.
  

Conquest / Renown

Many of us are disappointed by the grind this has become, the impossibility of attaining achievements from it, and it's absolute necessity on an economic level..... it truly is a gordian knot of despairing complexity with at least 3 major problems

1. Problem: Achievents are not obtained by "whoever puts in the most effort, but by whether or not you can get a character into one of the handful of sweatshop guilds that ALWAYS win it.
   
   • it made a little more sense back when the system was new, and it let guilds compete to improve themselves faster. unfortunately it's also a system that rewards mindless zerging. With turn over rates being what they are in large guilds there is NEVER an incentive not to chase the achievement for newer members, leaveing the same groups to win it every single time
     
   • Solution: it's imperfect, but opening up the achievement to the entire leader board, and adding more planets to some of the conquest weeks would definitely relax the pressure for the top hanful to always take the crown, and would offer a chance for some of the lower rung guild to actually get something out of it. leave the perks to first place, but at least let people have a chance to make the achievement.
     

[*]Problem: Conquest is a mind numbing grind

• Some people found KP Farm and they believed it'd change who was in top spot for CQ (hint: nope). But most of us found it and thought "great, I can knock this out quick and then play what I actually want to". Conquest has been great at reintroducing some under utilized content, but it's limits has been that it's cyclically static, and too slow to finish, leaving little time for things people enjoy. It's populated lower tier planets, but not in a good way as new and old players are ofte competing for the same resources.
  
• Solution: make conquest faster.... MUCH faster. repeatable big point objectives aren't the way, that just funnels people into doing the same things, instead, massively increase points (or decrease required caps). this has the follow on effect of allowing small guilds to effectively hit larger yields if they want to put the effort into it. which leads us to our final...
  

[*]Problem: Player Financial resources should not be dependent on guild size.

• Yes, I'm absolutely talking about crafting materials being less abundant for lower yield guilds, and absent completely for the unguilded. this is entirely backwards, and essentially punishes players for not being part of a large guild
  
• Solution: Flip the materials rewards around, put a fixed (low) number on guild reward provided materials, and the higher number on personal rewards. as a bonus this would also reduce the boom / bust cycle of prices currently being abused by resellers, since rewards would come to people all week instead of one huge dump.
  

and finally we have...

Crafting

0MFG where to begin here? it's become clear through the years that BW both hates crafting and despises crafters... why else would they create for us the only system in the game that not only gets harder every expac, but also more expensive, and more time consuming, while everything else remains relatively the same? Ignoring for the moment numerous bugs that have gone unaddressed over time, Onslaught has engendered a whole new type of hell. It has not only ignored the lessons of the past, but revived old horrors, and invented entirely new ones. Here are 4 core changes that might restore some semblance of sanity (assuming bugs are fixed)

1. Problem: there is no sane combination of missions that results in a ratio of materials to make artifact level base components without massive excesses of either prototype or premiums.
   
   • No, really... and it mostly comes down to needing more artifact mats to feed to crafting, but even at the highest levels, Prototype mats are too numerous by comparison, and premiums too low. it gets worse if you look at the sheer number of required mats, and the time from collection to production for a single crafted item.
     
   • Solution: realign the materials received on missions (starting with higher artifact values), so that users aren't collecting piles of junk for absolutely no reason.
     

[*]Problem: Commodity Crafted items cost more than Exclusive Luxury crafted items to craft, to the point of uselessness (Item crafting costs are determined by stat totals, not availability)

• Med units, Stims, Adrenals, Reusables, Augments.... what doe all these things have in common? they're all exclussive to crafting (can't be generated by any of means) and they're all cheaper to produce than a single armoring mod that is too low level tot even drop for 306 geared character... meaning it costs more to make TRASH, than it does to make these items. Likewise it would take more than a years worth of materials just to lean to make this same TRASH. it shouldn't take a genius to see what's wrong here.
  
• Solution: raise crafting costs on reusables, Drastically lower costs on Commodity (eg world/boss drop comparative) items. modifications should cost less than equipment pieces, which should cost less than exclusive items.
  

[*]Problem: Documentation and bug fixes are nonexistant

• We've still got completely broken items (+crit amps), conflicting mislableing of items (synth components), missions that only return partial rewards, undocumented changes to failure (increased) and critical (reduced) rates, items for which criticals do absolutely nothing (tacticals / set boxes), etc ad nauseam
  
• Solution:: If you can find time to workshop names for monsters and dialog for characters, you can at least show the same care and do the same for mission names, item labels, and write down what things affect and how.
  

[*]Problem: Crafting has become exceedingly grinding.

• every crafter knows it. before onslaught I could craft 3 batches of finished goods a day across 6 toons, 6 days a weeks and still have time for other content. now I get 1 batch a day, over 3 days, across 3 toons.... and I require 15 other toons in support of that.... in business terms, my output is now 1/12 of what it was in a week, and my workforce has tripled in size.... seriously I have a dozen extra toons that all I do is log in, collect mats, assign missions, and lgg out.... ~30mins per pass
  
• Solution: Easy solution? go back to the old non-teired system.... because the rquired fixes for this are so wide sweeping as to be more work. all costs would have to be radically reduced, all mat reutrns would need increased and stabilized, times would need to be reduced as well.
  

I could continue on about the absurdity of amplifiers, paying an extra 1.5m fee per character to continue crafting, whilst simultaneously being robbedd of success and critical which I can only partially buy back via gear that's useless in general content, but honestly, what's the point? I do not expect any of these things to be addressed beyond a cursory pass, if even that. it's absolutely why my sub is going into hiatus soon.

Group Finder

almost all of us were happy to see more options in group finder, and finally some love for mini Operations that were Orphaned before before. Unfortunately the bonuses and schedules exposed 3 absolutely necessary changes.

1. Problem: Full group are forced into random content to recieve rewards, despite no benift to them or anyone else

They're not forced into anything, and I would hardly characterize extra loot crates as "no benefit." They need to choose whether they want the extra crates or whether they want the operation or flashpoint they want. You want the extra crates? Roll the dice. Consider the alternative ... should someone who deliberately excludes every MM FP other than Hammer Station be entitled to the same extra crates as someone who rolled the dice, got Nathema, and finished it with their group?

[*]Solution: Allow full groups to queue for specific content to take advantage of transport and cyclic offerings and credit them for doing the cyclic content of their choice.

No, transport is hardly an issue with QT on the fleet, guild summons, or the legacy abilities to go to Rishi or Oricon or the Fleet Vanguard vessel, and cyclic offerings are just that. An op is highlighted each day and with the effective removal of lockouts on SM you can pretty much do whatever you like, with a small incentive for one thing each day. I'm glad there is finally a mechanism to queue up for event bosses like the Eyeless and Xeno let alone the solo instanced bosses. There would be little reason to do Hive of the Mountain Queen any more, and I for one would like to re-learn how to do Colossal Monolith. I would love to see Activity Finder expanded to other world bosses, including DvL bosses. (World boss timers including DvL are messed up anyway, but I digress.)

[*]Problem: Conversion to Operations groups requires all members to be outside of a phased instance, including strongholds

I'd prefer that strongholds/flagships don't count towards the "can't be in a phase restriction." In any event, as annoying as it can be, this is the least important or impactful issue of all the things you mention.

[*]Problem: Group memebers randomly assigned to different instances when moving to new locations

Agree, fix this bug. That being said, I've rarely seen it. Not at all in 6.0.

Conquest / Renown

I agree, for the most part, with your sentiments. There has to be mechanisms in place that in some cases, for some conquest weeks, even a small guild of say 12 active players could invade and reach goal on a medium or even large planet. I feel more strongly about this than I do the notion that a small guild should be able to win a large planet, as in top the leaderboard. Limits on objectives per day per legacy are a problem and I hope 6.1.1 and beyond address that quality of life aspect. I will say that in general its a good thing that conquest is incentivized, in terms of being a "higher likelihood" source for certain sets. On an individual player-perspective level, the problem is that of the theorycrafted Best in Slot sets, many come from conquest, which makes it important or even essential for character gear progression. Buffing other sets to fill that developer goal of true "horizontal progression" would help this problem.

[*]Problem: Player Financial resources should not be dependent on guild size.

• Yes, I'm absolutely talking about crafting materials being less abundant for lower yield guilds, and absent completely for the unguilded. this is entirely backwards, and essentially punishes players for not being part of a large guild
  
• Solution: Flip the materials rewards around, put a fixed (low) number on guild reward provided materials, and the higher number on personal rewards. as a bonus this would also reduce the boom / bust cycle of prices currently being abused by resellers, since rewards would come to people all week instead of one huge dump.

Well, hardly any, if any at all, of the theorycrafted BiS equipment is crafted, so that decreases the need for SRMs immediately. I've gone, what, five months now without grade 11 biochem consumables and grade 11 augments on all of my toons and haven't had any gameplay problems. I'm not convinced the valuation of these on the GTN is correct. I simply refuse to pay these prices and I think the people who do need to learn restraint and self-discipline. Given the number of hard core raiders who were in favor of removing the MM stacks, my guess is that the majority of hard core NiM raiders don't even need the grade 11 stuff either, especially since most of the stats are capped. I confess that the difference may be more important in pvp, but given the stat budget difference between a nerfed 242 gold grade 10 aug and a 286 purple grade 11 aug, I'm not sure it ends up making a huge difference.

Crafting

Agreed. The amount of materials required to produce things is absurd. The RE chance is absurdly low. The requirement of exotic materials even in midrange recipes is absurd. The system is broken for all of the reasons you mention and is definitely the worst part about 6.0.

[...]should someone who deliberately excludes every MM FP other than Hammer Station be entitled to the same extra crates as someone who rolled the dice, got Nathema, and finished it with their group?[...]

I said nothing of solo/partial group queues... the reason for randomization there is to be able to fill groups, if a group is already full, that reasoning does not apply. It's not a reward for doing random content, it's a reward for filling a group. if it were otherwise, full groups would not receive it (they do) or in fact be allowed in GF at all (they are

I'd prefer that strongholds/flagships don't count towards the "can't be in a phase restriction." In any event, as annoying as it can be, this is the least important or impactful issue of all the things you mention.

the problem with that is the auto transport to group leader instance.... which could effectively pull members into a stronghold without invitation or checks.... more headaches

Agree, fix this bug. That being said, I've rarely seen it. Not at all in 6.0.

I'll assume you haven't been doing any VFP's? I've never had the whole group show up in the same instance for turn in..... in fact the system is so goofy that a group member can be locked into a different instance of the same flashpoint (rare but unfixable, their spot becomes tied to the other instance, and no transport between is possibolle for anyone). It's also highly apparent when doing open world group content like WB's, Commanders, and even multiple planet heroics / rampages

Well, hardly any, if any at all, of the theorycrafted BiS equipment is crafted, so that decreases the need for SRMs immediately.

it's not about what Mats are used for, but rather that they're a major FINACIAL resource for players. at ~400-500k each, the difference is close to a million credits per character just depending on what your guild does. for me personally, it'd be a difference of ~40mil a week as a crafter, since not only would I lose the incoming materials, I'd need to buy them to craft with as well. for non-crafters it directly affects their gearing rate even if they aren't buying augs and max consumables.

Conquest / Renown

Many of us are disappointed by the grind this has become, the impossibility of attaining achievements from it, and it's absolute necessity on an economic level..... it truly is a gordian knot of despairing complexity with at least 3 major problems.

Well put, I enjoyed this sentence a lot. ^

No, really... and it mostly comes down to needing more artifact mats to feed to crafting, but even at the highest levels, Prototype mats are too numerous by comparison, and premiums too low. it gets worse if you look at the sheer number of required mats, and the time from collection to production for a single crafted item.

Yes! I worked my crafters up from 600 to 700, and started to look into what it takes to craft my own augs like I have done in every era of SWTOR... I have always crafted across the boards to be as self-reliant as possible. This being said, it's preposterous the sheer number of mats needed to craft just one blue recipe aug.

It's so confusing too. Where does droid assorted parts come from? Where does this come from? Where does that come from? I mean, why did they have to make the crafting so convoluted? The most annoying thing is the number of combination mats needed... I mean, really they needed to stick in one recipe two combination mats that both need 3 of their own mats???? Why? My god why so many pointless layers added to the crafting system?

I honestly don't know if I am going to even bother crafting and this is coming from a fairly hardcore crafter across many different MMO games. I can't really think of a game with a worse crafting system, and that's sad because although never the best, SWTOR past crafting was at least worthwhile and not dreadful doing as it is now. crafting once was enjoyable and it was lucrative if you put a little investment into it. Now, the investment of time, resources, I don't know if I can justify all that for what you get out of crafting now.

It's not a reward for doing random content, it's a reward for filling a group.

Of course it is a reward for doing random content, it literally says as much in the tooltips for the rewards. Otherwise they would not have combined the single-boss ops with a regular op. If they removed the requirement to have all ops checked, then everyone would just uncheck everything except Toborros and get nearly effortless ops gear crates.

the problem with that is the auto transport to group leader instance.... which could effectively pull members into a stronghold without invitation or checks.... more headaches

Why would you accept an invitation to join a group from someone that was on your stronghold ban list? Regardless, I've been invited to ops groups when the Ossus world bosses were a thing and I was in my stronghold ... or conversely, invited people in their strongholds (like guildies) into an ops group I was part of for the Ossus World Bosses. You know in its heyday Ossus had four or more instances rolling ... and never once did I get a message, while in my stronghold, to change to the group leader's instance.

I'll assume you haven't been doing any VFP's?

No, I've been doing master mode flashpoints.

it's not about what Mats are used for, but rather that they're a major FINACIAL resource for players. at ~400-500k each, the difference is close to a million credits per character just depending on what your guild does.

non-crafters it directly affects their gearing rate even if they aren't buying augs and max consumables.

How? You never explain. I don't see how, as I posted in my first reply, because hardly any BiS gear set bonus pieces or tacticals (at least according to the theorycrafter's discord) are crafted, and the vast majority of people are getting away with grade 10 biochem consumables and grade 10 augments. So your complaint is that you don't make as much money from selling SRMs because mega-conquest guilds can undercut your sale price? If anything, cheaper materials HELPS crafters, although I concede it could be a mixed bag for someone who crafts end products and sells raw materials. I don't. I haven't been able to afford buying exotic materials since legendary 236/242 augments came out way back in 5.x. I only use the SRMs for myself, and the prices are still outrageous to me as a consumer, regardless of any undercutting going on that may be hurting your business. But I have patience, and I can do the math, or at least plug the numbers into a spreadsheet, and I can tell that the impact of grade 11 augments or grade 11 biochem consumables relative to grade 10 is small even in non-synced content, and negligible in synced content. So, I choose not to pay your prices for SRMs, nor anyone's for that matter. Anyway, the issues around Conquest extend beyond the difference on a balance sheet.

After 6 months, the problem with crafting is least about SRMs or Embers. Its much more about the RE chance and the gathering/harvesting materials.

Of course it is a reward for doing random content, it literally says as much in the tooltips for the rewards. Otherwise they would not have combined the single-boss ops with a regular op. If they removed the requirement to have all ops checked, then everyone would just uncheck everything except Toborros and get nearly effortless ops gear crates.

Except that A) people can already do that now, B) optimal group composition is NOT what GF expects, and C) the entire point of having a group finder is to match people up for groups, the rewards were added to make it easier to do that, no other reason.

Why would you accept an invitation to join a group from someone that was on your stronghold ban list?

literally nothing to do with what I said

Regardless, I've been invited to ops groups when the Ossus world bosses were a thing and I was in my stronghold ... or conversely, invited people in their strongholds (like guildies) into an ops group I was part of for the Ossus World Bosses. You know in its heyday Ossus had four or more instances rolling ... and never once did I get a message, while in my stronghold, to change to the group leader's instance.

the code for that is based on "planet", which means it could trigger for groups where the leader was in the same SH, avoiding that is less of a headache than coding around it to not check other group members and only the leader.

No, I've been doing master mode flashpoints.

about half? the VFP's require turn ins, which means exiting back to fleet, which means getting split up.... it's not the only problematic scenario, but it is the most obvious.... back when ossus groups were a thing if you were off planet traveling to the planet would put you in the group leaders instance, for example.... now, that doesn't happen.

How? You never explain.

how are conquest mats a financial resource to players? does it really need an explanation that even if you are not a crafter they sell for nearly a half mil each? or that people need millions of credits to gear?

Except that A) people can already do that now, B) optimal group composition is NOT what GF expects, and C) the entire point of having a group finder is to match people up for groups, the rewards were added to make it easier to do that, no other reason.

But your whole point is that full premades who deselect ops don't get the rewards and that's somehow unfair ... and my point is that the rewards are for the randomness of the outcome, not a reward for the effort of getting a group together. Your reward for organizing your weekly guild ops run is the higher chance of success, the conquest points for the guild (if you have that perk), perhaps members of the guild requesting mats or decos that are drops, as well as the per boss character specific loot.

how are conquest mats a financial resource to players? does it really need an explanation that even if you are not a crafter they sell for nearly a half mil each? or that people need millions of credits to gear?

Void, of course I acknowledge conquest mats can be sold for money if you bothered at all to read my reply. The "How" was in reference to your claim that the lack of SRMs directly impedes gearing for non crafters. I provided my examples, and you neglected to provide any. I have never sold a single SRM. Yet I find other ways to generate income. I'm not saying that costs this expansion aren't exceedingly high (crafting everywhere case in point, a place where you and I agree), but I'm not hurting myself by holding onto my SRMs for myself for when I do try to craft my own grade 11 augments and biochem consumables.

But your whole point is that full premades who deselect ops don't get the rewards and that's somehow unfair ... and my point is that the rewards are for the randomness of the outcome, not a reward for the effort of getting a group together.

and there we disagree. you are arguing letter of the law and I'm arguing intent of the law as it were. and the fact that the reward existed when there were single op choices bears out my argument. The current system directly punishes people for forming full groups themselves,

by attempting to withhold both rewards and transport. previously this only affected people replacing others in a group (such as with lockouts). now it not only directly affects entire groups, and content, but it also affects other partial groups in the queue, causing them to be serially rejected for content, because that's the only way to get around the idiotic randomness.

as to your example of everyone choosing TC? they already can, and don't. My own guild does nightly newbie runs, and the only timess we don't choose the long OP is Gods, because it just takes too long. we also always skip monolith, because it's overtuned for characters <75. We are not the only ones doing it.

it's more hassle, where none is needed, and at no benefit to anyone; it needs to stop.

Void, of course I acknowledge conquest mats can be sold for money if you bothered at all to read my reply. The "How" was in reference to your claim that the lack of SRMs directly impedes gearing for non crafters. I provided my examples, and you neglected to provide any.

the fact that they directly have less financial resources IS the impediment. the fact that it's based on guild yield is the insult added to the injury.

I have never sold a single SRM. Yet I find other ways to generate income. I'm not saying that costs this expansion aren't exceedingly high (crafting everywhere case in point, a place where you and I agree), but I'm not hurting myself by holding onto my SRMs for myself for when I do try to craft my own grade 11 augments and biochem consumables.

are you even listening to yourself? you're not hurting yourself by using your resources later instead of now becuase you specifically don't need them right this second? next you'll tell us water is wet. You're still benefiting from those resources, whether you sell them or use them, and you receive less benefit if you have less of them. if you cannot grasp that there is no hope you ever will.

and there we disagree. you are arguing letter of the law and I'm arguing intent of the law as it were. and the fact that the reward existed when there were single op choices bears out my argument.

No, the rewards most recently in 5.x were Command XP and CXP Packs, and you didn't get them, for flashpoints and uprisings obviously, if you didn't have all options selected. What the developers have done is extend the reward scheme already in place for FP/UR to ops by reducing the lockout from 7 days to 1 day and adding the "one-offs +/- event bosses" to the rotating daily "long" op. There were no bonus crates of gear from doing an op prior to 6.0.

Now, if you want to separately argue that Role-In-Need should NOT be tied to having all content (ops or FPs or URs) ... well that is a reasonable place to discuss and something I could support. But there is no doubt the "intent" of the law, to use your metaphor, is to extend the paradigm for FP to ops and reward those who take the risk of random outcomes with bonus crates.

as to your example of everyone choosing TC? they already can, and don't. My own guild does nightly newbie runs, and the only timess we don't choose the long OP is Gods, because it just takes too long. we also always skip monolith, because it's overtuned for characters <75. We are not the only ones doing it.

 

it's more hassle, where none is needed, and at no benefit to anyone; it needs to stop.

The benefits to a premade I laid out in my reply before, but I'll make them crystal clear to you:

1.) Higher chance of successful completion

2.) in the case of a guild-organized group, and the right flagship perk, conquest points for the guild

3.) the ability to designate loot, like decorations or mats, upon request, instead of it being a free for all

4.) in many cases, including your guild newbie-night example, one of the benefits is the social interaction: joking around, laughing at epic fails, sharing in the joy of someone earning an achievement, etc.

are you even listening to yourself? you're not hurting yourself by using your resources later instead of now becuase you specifically don't need them right this second? next you'll tell us water is wet. You're still benefiting from those resources, whether you sell them or use them, and you receive less benefit if you have less of them. if you cannot grasp that there is no hope you ever will.

Actually what I'm saying is that I have gotten quite far in my gear progression and can complete all the content I desire with what I have without having spent a single SRM. I only spent SRMs making the armormech crafted set bonus sets recently for appearance only, since their actual set bonus is sub-par. So for a minimum number of SRMs acquired through gameplay over the months since 6.0 came out and without spending a single credit on them from the GTN, I've gotten to a good place. And the credit sink associated with amplifiers and modifying gear has not required me to sell any, as I can earn credits without selling them.

Therefore I am arguing it is possible for people to get competitive gear wise without consuming or selling SRMs, despite the credit sinks. I am proof that a person can gear effectively regardless of their stockpile of SRMs. And, this stands as a direct counterpoint to your claim that gearing is DIRECTLY affected. The fact that a person has a higher bank account number by selling SRMs than not selling SRMs does not DIRECTLY affect gearing and at best only INDIRECTLY affects gearing, contrary to what you claim. Said a different way, the people who are spending exorbitant amounts of money on biochem consumables and artifact augments because of crafters passing on the costs of mats to the consumers are doing it wrong in my opinion. They should save their money. People who are selling SRMs are capitalists, which is a great thing. I am happy for you that you have found a demand for SRMs from some players who are willing to pay your price.

Am I completely at goal BiS? Of course not, I would like to eventually get to purple augs and purple or gold biochem consumables, but I'm not going to pay what I perceive as exorbitant prices for SRMs, and I'm certainly not going to cry about YOU not getting as many hundreds of millions of credits per SRM because the mega guilds are undercutting you. I don't cry for the car salesman when he gives me another $1000 of the sticker price. I'm happy that's another $1000 in my pocket instead of his.

In other words, what YOU make on selling SRMs is not the main reason why conquest is broken right now.

so to sum up, your is an argument from apathy with a dash of what about the children. call me back when you perspective goes beyond your own front porch.

That's your best response? There's a lot you and I agree upon, but don't get all mad just because I provide detailed reasons why some of your analysis is incomplete, and my personal opinion that the problems with conquest are larger than your income stream. That has nothing to do with the children or my front porch, whatever all that snark means, but I'm done here.