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a thread to debate the merits of slicing changes (post here, not there)

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Galactic Starfighter
a thread to debate the merits of slicing changes (post here, not there)
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Ramalina's Avatar


Ramalina
01.29.2021 , 11:52 PM | #31
Looking at the three main lockout components: EMP, EMP missile, and Remote slicing.

Purpose: EMP field and EMP missile are bomber ball counters. Sort of important ones. They're also on ships where in most cases the EMP build is acting in a fairly hard support role, and teammates have to help out with the killing. Without help, the EMP ship is likely to be a bit slow or clunky in getting the kill on it's own. The t2 strike is a bit of an exception, but after you've landed an EMP missile you're not exactly in the greatest position to start a proton lock.

Remote slicing on the other hand, is a cripple used by a hunter to ensure a subsequent torpedo kill. In theory you can use it in a support role, but EMP missile is way better as a multi-target AOE in that role. It's very much an, "I am out to get YOU (specifically and personally)," sort of deal in terms of design. It's really a package deal with torpedoes. If RS were nothing but the engine disable, it would still be worth taking, even at the full 5 tier cost. It goes that far toward guaranteeing a torpedo kill. If it didn't disable the engines, I think it would hardly be worth taking, even if you're also running Lockdown as a crew skill.

It's annoying in the classic WoW rogue stun-lock, sort of way, but there are two things that I think sort of push it a bit over the edge in terms of being tolerated. One is that it makes you vulnerable not just to the t3 strike's torpedoes, but to EVERYONE's torpedoes, in a space where torpedoes are now very popular. The other is that the cooldown is actually way shorter than I though it was. I was thinking it started at over a minute and got cut down to something like 50 seconds, but it starts short and gets shorter. In a worst case scenario, a target can be kept locked down for 40% of the game. That's WAY too much. Increasing the base cooldown to 90 seconds, and upgraded cooldown to something in the range of 50 to 70 seconds would be a good first step in the right direction. In terms of uptime, nerfing the duration increase from 3 seconds down to 2, or even 1, might also help.

As a single target sort of component, I also think that nerfing the global AOE would be a great change. I like the idea of a lock-on if that could be implemented. Though a long press of a system button might be a bit clunky interface wise. Even cutting it down from a sphere to a cone, say similar arc size to torpedoes, since that's really what it pairs with, would be progress of a sort. Thematically we'd need the transmitters to be pointing at the target anyway, right?

Chaining cooldowns for a kill is a very traditional MMORPG PVP mechanic. I think that chaining RS and a torpedo for a probable kill isn't a fundamental problem. The degree to which it is easily spammable is a problem. Given the mechanics of the component, I think a mild increase in skill required would be good, if it can be implemented, but that the real core issue is the uptime needs a fairly hard nerf. I feel like 10s up on a 65 or 70 second cooldown would be a good place to start for a mastered RS. Probably starting from a 9s up on a 90 second cooldown as base.

With such a hard disable coming from a very tanky ship, giving opponents 2 to 3 cooldown cycles to fight back per Remote Slicing cycle seems about right to me.

As far as the engine drain goes, eh whatever. It does make the base component pretty strong in terms of annoyance, perhaps a bit OP annoying. Split some of it into higher tier upgrades? Nerf it? Change it into something else? If you wanted to be really evil instead of having it drain engine pool just have it trigger boost for 3 seconds or until out of fuel whichever comes first? Eh, that might be leaning into the trolling nature of the component a bit too hard, though if you could do that just the first week of April every year . . .
"A padawan's master sets their Jedi trial, Rajivari set mine."
- Zhe Lian, Sage.

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Ttoilleekul's Avatar


Ttoilleekul
01.30.2021 , 05:00 AM | #32
Quote: Originally Posted by SeCKSEgai View Post
AND THAT is why I don't think you get the connection. I explain back story to LITERALLY ADDRESS THE TOPIC DIRECTLY and oh no Roland's reminiscing about the old days again is all you see.

The protorp is literally what makes Remote Slicing in it's current state so deadly. It doesn't have to be a protorp from the slicer itself either. It does make you more vulnerable to a rail shot, but I know I can't recall a time where I died to remote slicing when a protorp wasn't involved...

If you're not adjusting the protorp then WHAT DO YOU CHANGE on REMOTE SLICING? The protorp sets up the dynamic, I'm not expecting it to "change" but what are you expecting to get adjusted/removed in RS?

It's easy to agree on something needing a nerf, but there's very little input on what should actually be adjusted. RS exists in its current state because of a lack of said input as a handful of voices ended up representing a whole community.

But seriously, you already have a thread that's specific to the petition and then when the "merits" are discussed you think its off-topic.... Remember in GSF things are often intertwined and interactions affect others aspects, kinda like how performance dictates meta and meta dictates playstyles....
Dude, please stop insulting my intellect. I get it, ok? We are not talking about rocket science here. There is a strong connection between the power that Slicing has and the damage that a Protorp has. You don't need a degree in engineering to figure that one out. Stop assuming that my disagreeing with what you think should be done about this, constitutes a lack of comprehension in understanding your arguments (and for the record yes, you do turn every discussion into a nostalgia about old meta conversation). Solving remote slicing without changing protorps as well? Easy. Play with the cooldowns, range, duration of the ability, and reduce the engine drain. You just make it so that the pilot has to work for his kill. Like say the T2F currently is. It has Protorps equipped, it even has EMP missiles equipped, but do we worry about how easily and quickly someone will shut you down and obliterate you if they come at you in a T2F? No, because even though it still has Protorps, the pilot still has to work for it.
-Luc Nodaro

powerofvoid's Avatar


powerofvoid
01.30.2021 , 09:54 AM | #33
Self-quoting because it all seems to be coming back to this:
Quote: Originally Posted by powerofvoid View Post
Make it harder for the target to lock missiles instead of making it harder for them to break missile locks
General Problem: Slicing + Protorp combo
General Solution: Make slicing counter protorps instead of comboing with them
Specific, Simple Solution: Instead of locking out the target's engine ability, have slicing lock out the target's ability to lock missiles on anyone, or increase the target's lock-on time by a large number.

philwil's Avatar


philwil
01.30.2021 , 10:08 AM | #34
Nerf of slicing:

Take away the engine drain, the missile break lock out is enough, haha
And increase the cooldown of slicing by 15 seconds, make it every minute. or even 2 minutes.

Increasing the cool down time is only because its a push button, no aiming, no lock on time. It just gets applied.

If there were some sort of skill associate with it it would be fine.

But as is, even a Caveman can do it.
Flux

Snuffleupagus, Sishyafiq, Baby Yodda, and many, many more

Ramalina's Avatar


Ramalina
01.30.2021 , 08:54 PM | #35
Quote: Originally Posted by SeCKSEgai View Post

The protorp was rarely used because it was too hard to lock and even if you managed it, the lack of locking projectiles in heavy use meant the target likely would have a missile break ready.
A a frequent locker of proton torpedoes in the old days, I have to say that locking wasn't the primary problem. Locking say 20 or 30 protons per game was quite doable. The problem was that out of 30 locks you'd be lucky to get 1 hit because there were too many missile breaks cycling so much faster than the cooldown cycles of any missile other than clusters. This was also why the engine disable on RS was not worth as much as it is now. Locking out the engine missile break didn't do much good, because the target would just use the break on their shield instead, or in rare cases in un-serious builds their system ability.

Changing missile vs break cooldown cycles so that missiles have a realistic chance of hitting is what makes the RS cooldown potent now. RS in the old days could not lock out enough breaks to get a missile to land. There would still be breaks available to the target, unless they had just used a break. Now, RS usually locks out all of a target's breaks and effectively guarantees a missile hit. If that hit is from a proton torp, thermite torp, or on a ship with low shields a concussion missile, then it's likely to be a fatal hit.

I think that part of what happened is that RS was changed based on "what would it take to make this good in the Pre-5.5 meta," and the basic answer was, "make it spammable so strikes can land a missile once in a while." Then the general balance of missile vs missile break cooldown cycle availability was changed to make missiles a viable secondary weapon, but due to running out of development time, the RS changes that went live were designed to eat enough breaks to make a torp landable in the old meta. Which is overkill in the new meta.

Another thought on the broad meta changes with respect to 5.5 and RS. Prior to 5.5 the shield lockout was much more valuable than it currently is. Armor penetration is now just about everywhere, and with an assortment of anti-bomber measures getting buffed, it's no longer a matter of insufficient game mechanics if there's a beacon bomber on a sat that just won't die. It's just lack of player skill. Pre-5.5 getting usable armor penetration in heavily mined close quarters was a big issue, and RS tier 5 was more of an interesting choice. A T3 with Thermite and RS looked pretty appealing as a means of dealing with entrenched Charged Plating bombers, but that's rarely an issue anymore. In addition, a shield lock out was a closer equivalent to an engine lockout, because normally every ship that wasn't a bomber could be expected to have Distortion as a missile break in a serious game. So no matter which option you took you'd still be taking a missile break from the target most of the time.

I think the reduction in the utility of the shield lockout complicates dealing with RS. Now it's a spammy, "make target a sitting duck for missiles," button, but doesn't really do anything else interesting. It used to have a competing anti-bomber support function, but that's sort of a vestigial feature now. The engine lockout is very strong on the current cooldown, the engine drain is competitive with Ion Railgun, but the rest of the upgrade slots are pretty much empty fluff. It would be nice if the power were spread out more evenly in the upgrade tree, and in a way that offered more interesting choices. A full re-engineering of the ability would be better than just nerfing the snot out of the cooldown, but it would be a lot more work and open new opportunities for things to go wrong. How ambitious are you feeling devs?

Quote:
Right now the protorp is practically essential on any strike because of the meta. Clusters lock very quick but barely can penetrate shields so there's little direct hull damage. There's nothing to justify choosing concussion over protorp. Same goes for Ion. Thermite has potential but why bother if you can do direct damage that bypasses shields? One of the best things about emp missile is that it too bypasses shields.
I generally run concussion on T1 strikes, and find that I get more kills than if I run proton. Wider arc, higher rate of fire, better mesh in range with blasters, and the slow can be useful. Proton is safer and lower effort, but having all weapons operating at ideal range at the same time (assuming I remember to pile-drive) seems to produce better for me.
"A padawan's master sets their Jedi trial, Rajivari set mine."
- Zhe Lian, Sage.

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Ttoilleekul's Avatar


Ttoilleekul
02.01.2021 , 07:05 AM | #36
Quote: Originally Posted by powerofvoid View Post
Self-quoting because it all seems to be coming back to this:

General Problem: Slicing + Protorp combo
General Solution: Make slicing counter protorps instead of comboing with them
Specific, Simple Solution: Instead of locking out the target's engine ability, have slicing lock out the target's ability to lock missiles on anyone, or increase the target's lock-on time by a large number.
Ok, i really like that! Very clever!
-Luc Nodaro

Ramalina's Avatar


Ramalina
02.20.2021 , 12:00 AM | #37
I just had a string of so many TDMs that it basically drove me insane. By which I mean that a Bloodmark with RFLs and stock Thermite Torpedoes seemed like a good idea because I was that bored of TDM.

In the quest for even less optimal builds I noticed something that I had forgotten: stock Combat Command counters tier 5 upgrade Ion Railgun debuffs. In an AOE no less.

Would making Tier 5 Combat Command cancel engine/shield lockouts make any sense? (EMP field/ Emp Missile/ Remote slicing)
"A padawan's master sets their Jedi trial, Rajivari set mine."
- Zhe Lian, Sage.

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