Um, you know, the theory is also that people dont just not like the movie because of plot, it must be because they hate woman.

You again begin about the subject of gender while completely ignoring everything I wrote below. That means one of two things, either you are so focused on this specific issue that you don't see anything else or that you have no counterarguments to bring against my theory and therefore latch on to other stuff that derail the subject. I ask you again, please, take a look at the theory and respond to that, I have provided in my previous post something of a TLDR version of the OP, so that you won't have to read all of that. I urge you to set aside your crusade for just one bit and focus on the subject at hand.

You again begin about the subject of gender while completely ignoring everything I wrote below. That means one of two things, either you are so focused on this specific issue that you don't see anything else or that you have no counterarguments to bring against my theory and therefore latch on to other stuff that derail the subject. I ask you again, please, take a look at the theory and respond to that, I have provided in my previous post something of a TLDR version of the OP, so that you won't have to read all of that. I urge you to set aside your crusade for just one bit and focus on the subject at hand.

And you are ignoring that was a targeted attack against people that did not like the movie. I said I would not bring it up again unless someone else did... And they did.

So... who is on a crusade? Also I asked:

Can you agree that you can like/dislike this movie based simply on the plot and story? Are you capable of admitting that?

 

And you are ignoring that was a targeted attack against people that did not like the movie. I said I would not bring it up again unless someone else did... And they did.

 

So... who is on a crusade? Also I asked if you if:

Absolutely, if you found the story and plot of the Last Jedi to be bad then sure, that is your right. Everyone has their own taste and perspectives, but neither mine or yours are superior to the other. Those who dislike the Last Jedi based on plot and story are no more right than those who loved the Last Jedi based on plot and story. It is up to each individual to determine whether they like or dislike the Last Jedi, but no one can claim to have the one true superior opinion.

I am not attacking anyone, I am simple trying to force this thread back onto the intended rails, which was a lore discussion of what has been stated in the OP. For all I care at this point Rey was a Hutt and therefore genderless or a hermaphrodite. All I want is people to discuss the points made in the OP and my theory instead of the constant debate about what is underneath Rey's pants.

Absolutely, if you found the story and plot of the Last Jedi to be bad then sure, that is your right. Everyone has their own taste and perspectives, but neither mine or yours are superior to the other.

That was it. That was my only point I was trying to make.

And again, I will drop the issue as long as nobody else brings it up.

I 100% respect your right to like the story of this movie as well.

I do not agree with your reasons and you do not agree with mine and that is 100% OK. There is no need to try to make up petty personal accusations if we can all agree to look at it in this light that neither view is superior and are personal to the opinion of the individual.

It has nothing to do with her being a woman. I have no idea why people say that other than to undermine the argument on the other side of the table in attempt to shame and silence them.

 

Was there an uprising over Satele Shan? No. Know why? Because her story was explained and made more sense then Rey's. However, Satele and Kotor in general are not canon. Rey is.

 

The problem with Rey is the Mary Sue extravaganza she displays. Jedi and Sith (who cares what gender they are?) would train for years. As stated before many time, Anakin himself, fathered by the force, still trained under Obi, Quigon and Yoda. Even then, we see how Duuko pwns him the first time they fight even after years of training. Had Yoda not jumped in, Anakin and Obi would be dead.

 

Yet this person, who has no lightsaber fighting skills ( a staff is not the same- especially when fighting a skilled and trained force user), who was never taught how to use the force to be telepathic and make people do things they would not normally do... just knows how to do these things with no training or instruction in the force - because that is how the story of a Mary Sue works.

 

https://fanlore.org/wiki/Mary_Sue

"Mary Sue type characters do exist in both fan fiction and canon. The main difficulty with true Mary Sue stories is that they often cause canon characters, established story lines, and the very inner consistency of the canon's reality, to behave wildly out of bounds. "

 

It is a joke and a disgrace to the plots of the former films.

 

So please, stop saying it is people hating on woman as an excuse to dismiss arguments as to why Rey is catching so much slack over it. Her gender has 0 to do with it.

 

Also this.

 

 

 

I personally liked the movie. TLJ is the first one I can say without question that I absolutely hate. I have saw them all, including the OT at the theater.

You still fail to see the real reasons here...

In A New Hope Luke was a farmboy who took down the death star all by himself and also using the force to disrubt his fathers attempts to blast him off the sky.

In Empire Strikes back he had some training under Yoda, but still was far from a Jedi and yet went to fight Vader and he kinda lost there.

Here is where the stories are different. Rey beats Kylo Ren, Luke lost a hand in duel vs his father.

If you watch the TFA again, the director insists to make us see that Ren is bleeding and is the main reason why he cannot defeat her. But people failed to see this and rushed to call Rey's char Mary Sue.

Again, her natural ability with the force is nothing new to star wars. Maybe she is just natural talent...

The Last Jedi failed to explain the reasons behind her affinity to the force properly and after all that build up and mystery around that we hot from Abrams in TFA is turned into dust in this last movie.

This is the reason why I am glad that Abrams is coming back to EP9 as he made a real star wars movie with TFA despite the " ep4 ripoff" and concept.

Let's hope he can fix some of the mess around Rey in the new movie.

I repeat myself. I still dont think there is any difference between luke and rey as trainees in the force. The problems come from how their stories are told.

That was it. That was my only point I was trying to make.

And again, I will drop the issue as long as nobody else brings it up.

I 100% respect your right to like the story of this movie as well.

I do not agree with your reasons and you do not agree with mine and that is 100% OK. There is no need to try to make up petty personal accusations if we can all agree to look at it in this light that neither view is superior and are personal to the opinion of the individual.

Yes, true, I agree, but this thread is not about me liking The Last Jedi. This thread is about a theory I had that might be an explanation of why Rey is as strong in the Force as she is. The theory isn't about my opinion on the Last Jedi, it's about a lore subject with a possible theory. I don't want to discuss whether we like or don't like the Last Jedi because that is not what the thread is about, this thread talks about how the Force works and influences others from an in-universe perspective

Yes, true, I agree, but this thread is not about me liking The Last Jedi. This thread is about a theory I had that might be an explanation of why Rey is as strong in the Force as she is. The theory isn't about my opinion on the Last Jedi, it's about a lore subject with a possible theory. I don't want to discuss whether we like or don't like the Last Jedi because that is not what the thread is about, this thread talks about how the Force works and influences others from an in-universe perspective

Oh I get that, but you are basing a lot of it off of the new canon lore from the new movies right? I mean it is to understand Rey right? So it is almost impossible to separate the two.

On either front, I am glad we agree sir

You still fail to see the real reasons here...

 

I don't fail to see the reasoning, I just dismiss it because it is crap for a story. You said so yourself.

The problems come from how their stories are told.

Luke had been enlightened by Kenobi about the force and gave him a lesson. The only thing Luke did in ANH is listen to Kenobi's ghost that told him to "use the force." This was only after he had showed Luke that he could even use it. He did not move any objects, he didn't use a lightsaber in combat or use mind trick. Basically all he did was listen to Kenobi's force ghost and follow instructions from a Jedi master. He didn't know what he was doing.

Then 3 years pass where he is able to build on what he had learned and train on his own (possibly even with Kenobi's ghost). It was not until this gap in time until we see him use the force to bring the lightsaber to him. . That is why in TESB, he is able to tell Yoda that he has "learned so much already". And even then got bested by Vader and dismembered.

On top of all that, he was a Skywalker. Not a normal force sensitive, he is from a bloodline that is known in canon for being strong force sensitive/force users and why. I mean my god, the entire saga is about the freaking Skywalkers.

Luke had to find out that his dad was killed by Vader and that he was once a Jedi which we later find that Vader is his father. A plot twist that explains his powers and why.

Rey on the other hand... and all without any reason as to why except nonsense...

VERY IMPORTANT PART HERE:

Rey actually uses the force, over powering Kylo, for the Skywalker lightsaber. That is right, she over powered him for the saber using the force. This person who had NEVER used it, overpowered someone trained in it from birth in the Skywalker bloodline.

Done. That is the story. That is how the force works.

I mean... LOL. Even Snoke, knowing the wounds Kylo had, still called him on it. haha! Just whatever, I just think the story/plot is corny and stupid now. You can never grow stronger and it never really matters who is in your bloodline because the force will give PVP bolster to Rey.

That is why people call her Mary Sue.

I mean it is to understand Rey right? So it is almost impossible to separate the two.

no ab****ely not, even if you completely ignore the New Trilogy going by what has happened in PT, OT, Rebels and The Clone Wars his theory matches up perfectly. The New Trilogy only supports it.

Like i said before in The Clone Wars we have Wee Dunn and Roo-Roo Page actual new born babies who can't even speak but are able to use the force just like Anakin Skywalker.

Anankins birth is also supported by this as the plan was to use the force to create evil but instead it created Anakin who ended up destroying the Sith.

"VERY IMPORTANT PART HERE:

Rey actually uses the force, over powering Kylo, for the Skywalker lightsaber."

Yes which

1. fits into the OP's theory

2. Kylo is DYING he is weak and having trouble standing how is he supposed to concentrate when he also just killed his father? Did you not watch empire? What did Yoda tell Luke to do when stacking rocks? Concentrate clear your mind? Kind of hard to do when bleeding out, killed your father and on a planet that is about to explode.

overpowered someone trained in it from birth

in the Skywalker bloodline.

You can never grow stronger and it never really matters who is in your bloodline

2. Kylo is DYING he is weak and having trouble standing how is he supposed to concentrate when he also just killed his father? Did you not watch empire? What did Yoda tell Luke to do when stacking rocks? Concentrate clear your mind? Kind of hard to do when bleeding out, killed your father and on a planet that is about to explode.

Did you not watch Empire? Luke got his hand cut off, found out Vader was his dad (knowing he had his Aunt and uncle killed) and still reached out to Leia at the end. Kylo was training his whole life and was beated by someone born into the force 2 days ago. But yeah, continue on.

You dont think he knew how to clear his mind and use the force? He has has been training under Luke for over a decade. Rey has about 3 days and has never showed she could even do it before then. Give me a break

Then we have to also question Rey and her mental state. She just saw a personal hero and father figure die by his own son, searching for her parents, the ground is breaking aprt under her feet on a strange planet and she had never even left her home world. She is facing someone she knows has trained in the force for years. But nah, she can concentrate just fine. Again, you pointed out that Yoda had to tell Luke how to concentrate, she had nobody.

But whatever floats your boat.

again bloodline doesn't mater at all. if it did Jedi would have gone extinct due to the fact that Jedi don't really have kids.

 

seriously what is up with your obsession with bloodlines?

Oh I don't know, maybe the fact it is lore? Ya know midiclorians, Yoda telling Look the force runs strong in his family and to pass on what he has learned. That was kind of the deal yo, Vader was fathered by the force and then had his son, passing on the bloodline. But yeah, whatever lol then Kylo too. Maybe you should ask why the movies made up such a big deal with the bloodlines? I mean lets just dismiss, this whole saga is about a bloodline. HAHA

I dont get why you have an obsession with dismissing it.

Oh I get that, but you are basing a lot of it off of the new canon lore from the new movies right? I mean it is to understand Rey right? So it is almost impossible to separate the two.

 

On either front, I am glad we agree sir

I have begged and asked how many times for you to read the OP so that you might understand and yet still you stubbornly refuse. I base my theory off of both Legends and new Canon, the primary source being Kreia from Knights of the Old Republic II. That is Legends material. The other parts are from for example the Last Jedi visual dictionary, Canon material. I'd rather say I primarily draw from EU continuity to explain Rey. So no, I am not drawing from the new movies, I am drawing my theory from material that came prior to the new movies and the new movies support my theories.

But I see what is happening here, you'll dismiss anything remotely positive about Rey because you hate the plot and story of the Last Jedi. While it is your right, I see that you'll simply not accept or consider a positive opinion about it. Even if Mark Hamill himself came with this theory you'd dismiss it I am afraid.

Did you not watch Empire? Luke got his hand cut off, found out Vader was his dad (knowing he had his Aunt and uncle killed) and still reached out to Leia at the end.

yeah.... he was in a dire situtation and was able to concentrate enough to use a cry for help while his sister was searching for him ie using the force unkonwingly

Which again.. goes into the OP's theory of the force doing its thing so to speak.

You dont think he knew how to clear his mind and use the force?

this might be the biggest facepalm yet but it makes a lot of sense.

It's clear you didn't understand Kylo's character. No he can't clear his mind that's the whole point. Through out the entire movie its show his power comes from his uncontrolled rage.

and again going back to the OP's post the force is helping Rey

She just saw a personal hero and father figure die by his own son,

yeah... and her mind is now clear focused on one single thing. Stopping the guy 20 feet from her and avenging Han. She has the best motivation, she has a clear path.

Thanks for proving my point.

she can concentrate just fine. Again, you pointed out that Yoda had to tell Luke how to concentrate, she had nobody.

Maza taught her, tells her the same thing Yoda and Ben say to Luke

Don't let facts get in the way of your Bias.

Ya know midiclorians

That actually hurts your arguement. The point of Middoclhorines was to have a way to science away the force. It's basically giving Jedi's power levels. Nothing about it though has anything to do with bloodlines.

Yoda telling Look the force runs strong in his family and to pass on what he has learned

But again... we have already seen that bloodline doesn't automatically make you strong in the force.

As i'll point out again in SWTOR Therian Shaan son of Satieal who was Daughter of Revan the strongest force user ever, had 0 force powers.

and again if it relied on bloodlines there would be no Jedi as they would all die out since they don't reproduce.

If it was really through bloodines then The Emperor would have just used Space Tinder to create his own apprentice

but seriously the entire point of the last 5 years of Star Wars is that bloodlines isn't important.

yeah.... he was in a dire situtation and was able to concentrate enough to use a cry for help while his sister was searching for him ie using the force unkonwingly

 

Which again.. goes into the OP's theory of the force doing its thing so to speak.

He was also able to do it after 3 years.

this might be the biggest facepalm yet but it makes a lot of sense.

 

It's clear you didn't understand Kylo's character. No he can't clear his mind that's the whole point. Through out the entire movie its show his power comes from his uncontrolled rage.

 

and again going back to the OP's post the force is helping Rey

Yes, helping Rey. Why didn’t it help Luke beat Vader the first go around?

 

yeah... and her mind is now clear focused on one single thing. Stopping the guy 20 feet from her and avenging Han. She has the best motivation, she has a clear path.

LOL so it is about motivation and I mean ugh. It seems some are willing to take anything they can get I guess. The argument is that she was able to over power him with the force. Whatever. If it is cool with you. Then it is cool with you.

Maza taught her, tells her the same thing Yoda and Ben say to Luke

Um no, she just says close your eyes and feel the force. Luke was actually instructed and demonstrated. But even then, it took him years to do it. Rey was literally a few moments later.

Don't let facts get in the way of your Bias.

That actually hurts your arguement. The point of Middoclhorines was to have a way to science away the force. It's basically giving Jedi's power levels. Nothing about it though has anything to do with bloodlines.

This is actually your strongest argument you have made this entire thread about anything

Actually, I believe my whole argument is strong, otherwise I would not be talking about it.

But again... we have already seen that bloodline doesn't automatically make you strong in the force.

As i'll point out again in SWTOR Therian Shaan son of Satieal who was Daughter of Revan the strongest force user ever, had 0 force powers.

You go on about my examples and facepalm and then you inject this game as some type of metric. Man, you know this game is not canon.

and again if it relied on bloodlines there would be no Jedi as they would all die out since they don't reproduce

If it was really through bloodines then The Emperor would have just used Space Tinder to create his own apprentice

You can be born with midiclorians obviously without having a force mother or father. There is no issue here. What made Anakin unique was (1) the force was his father and (2) he had a higher count than any Jedi. And they more or less did have “Tinder” they scanned baby’s blood for midiclorians. I mean that is in the story and is canon.

But seriously the entire point of the last 5 years of Star Wars is that bloodlines isn't important.

I got it.

He was also able to do it after 3 years.

actually he was able to close his eyes and concentrate 5 seconds after Obi Wan tell him with the Training driod on the Falcon. Good try though sorry i'm out of participation trophies.

Yes, helping Rey. Why didn’t it help Luke beat Vader the first go around?

Well let's see,

1. The Anakin was the chosen one who would bring balance to the force, not Luke.

2. Let's say Luke killed Vader on Cloud City before he learns that Vader is his father. Now he goes to fight the Emperor without that knowledge and the Emperor tells him "Hey kid you killed your father now eat some lighting" Luke loses the Rebels lose.

3. Let's say he Turn Vader on Cloud City. They both go after the Emperor. The Emperor isn't suprised by Vader turning so he just lightings the two of them to death, Rebels lose Emperor wins.

So yeah it wasn't Luke's destiny to win there.

LOL so it is about motivation and I mean ugh. It seems some are willing to take anything they can get I guess. The argument is that she was able to over power him with the force.

facepalm.... motivation gives you focus... maybe you have never been movitved in your entire life... but yeah when someone has motivation they have a clear goal in mind its not hard to concentrate. Being able to concentrate just like Maaz taught her she was able to tap into the force and over power a dying angry kid.

Seriously are you trying to be obtuse?

Um no, she just says close your eyes and feel the force. Luke was actually instructed and demonstrated. But even then, it took him years to do it. Rey was literally a few moments later.

Bias of bad story telling?

... it's the same story as A New Hope....

You go on about my examples and facepalm and then you inject this game as some type of metric. Man, you know this game is not canon.

But let's see if you can explain how Wee Dunn was so strong in the force and use force powers that it took Luke 3 years to master when he was able to do it with out even being 1 year old?

Disney. Disney did this. This is not what it was. And it muddies the water

actually it was started with The Clone Wars and Lucas.

Actually, I believe my whole argument is strong, otherwise I would not be talking about it.

yeah... you also thought every Japanese pilot in WW2 was a Kamakazi and that Pearl Harbor was nothing but Kamakazis.... so we can see you're thought process isn't the best.

... it's the same story as A New Hope....

Really? What force powers did Luke utilize in ANH vs Rey in TFA?

Luke:

He had Kenobi telling him how to reach out and reflected some blaster fire from a training droid. and then Kenobi's ghost told him to "use the force" when running around the deathstar.

Rey:

Force pull, Jedi mind-trick, telekinetic, force visions, - after she talked to green girl Yoda for literally 15 seconds. Not to mention a saber fight against another force user and won.

Clearly not the same but whatever.

Then you want to build a straw man by pulling in something from another thread. I clearly said what the point was there and that is bad taste as it serves 0 purpose in this thread. We were talking about hyper-driving things into objects. While I may have been wrong on when or where it happened, it did happen.

 

 

... it's the same story as A New Hope....

 

 

Really? What force powers did Luke utilize in ANH vs Rey in TFA?

............................................wow... you don't even know what a story is.....................

............................................wow... you don't even know what a story is.....................

I asked you a question. What force powers does Luke use in ANH?

I mean, it is a simple question.

I asked you a question. What force powers does Luke use in ANH?

I mean, it is a simple question.

it's a question that has nothing to do with A new Hope and TFA being the same story....

It's like saying a Cheese Burger and a Bacon Cheese Burger are both burgers then you replying with "Oh yeah where does bacon come from?"

it's a question that has nothing to do with A new Hope and TFA being the same story....

 

It's like saying a Cheese Burger and a Bacon Cheese Burger are both burgers then you replying with "Oh yeah where does bacon come from?"

LOL... it has everything to do with what we were talking about. You said Luke is just as much a Mary Sue, that was your words. You even said twice the Mary Sue. I can go get those quotes if you would like.

So apples to apples. What force powers did Luke (ANH) use compared to Rey (TFA) have? This is done for comparative value. Because she has no backstory and he does.

It is bad story telling bro. That is why I dislike this movie. There is nothing to explain her other than "she gets as strong as Kylo by default because of the force and her parents were nobody" Heck of a backstory there. I don't know how anyone could care about this character. No building her at all. No backstory, no explanation of her powers, no character depth. Nothing. I could have liked Rey, but the character development in this movie was trash. Heck, I actually did like Rey in TFA. This move hosed everything built up in the first one.

They said "this wont go the way you think it will." They sure were not lying, right into the toilet.

And here I thought TFA was a great movie with a lot of new good characters that I was excited about. Now they leave you with this trash. Finn has gotten degraded to a Jar Jar like person. He could have been a force user himself. I am just not getting into the rest of the issues I have with the movie because that is not fair to the OP. As a matter of fact, this will be my last post in this thread.

Because she has no backstory and he does.

........ so aside from not knowing what a Story is and denying that ANH and TFA have the same story....

you also don't know what a backstory is.....

ok you know what i'll bite.

What is Luke's Backstory and how did you learn it?

Rey is effectively the avatar of the force which is why she can display more control over the force with little training... The force wills it. That is the point of the thread after all... When the Jedi order existed the force itself didn't need to "intervene" as there were masters to teach many a young prospect. Ofc as the OP says it's a theory...

As for Luke, he was never established in the movies to be a particularly powerful Jedi. What they did in the EU has no relevance. Perhaps Rey is simply more powerful and her interaction with Kylo through the force triggered "an awakening" as it were...

So the force is shooting it's load across the galaxy as revenge for Sidious and Plagues shooting their load onto it?

Apparently it's what the force does... Remember the immaculate conception of Anakin?! Some load the force shot with that one eh?! lol

I haven't even watched The Last Jedi, yet I can gather that this is just pure waffle. Repeated yourself a hundred times only encompassing supporting points, with barely anything of merit.

Get a better hobby, thanks.

I haven't even watched The Last Jedi, yet I can gather that this is just pure waffle. Repeated yourself a hundred times only encompassing supporting points, with barely anything of merit.

Get a better hobby, thanks.

I get that you can disagree with me, in fact, if you disagree please provide sensible counterarguments so the theory can find its opposite and its weak points be reinforced by it. But to be as bitter as that over it? Was that sneer really necessary?

Frankly my hobby is writing, in fact, it's my passion. Not even your bitterness will ever stop me from doing what I love most, I can assure you.