(Copy and pasted my response from another thread since it relates to this thread)

Anyway... the question remains. Is it going to be ignored again? I've written my posts as best and i can trying to touch a topic that, in my interpretation, should be addressed and made clear before something like this happens again! Already people from your guild and not from your guild are suggesting to DO THE SAME

and skip DG Council because (insert reason here). How is that going to affect the original intention of "spirit of raiding and competition?"

 

It's a very valid question. Looking at this thread and the other two threads, there is a pretty heated debate and I don't personally feel it's as one-sided as you may have originally thought. Several people disagree with what we did, and a plethora of people have come out recently saying there was nothing wrong. Having raided in WoW for 6 years, you can't convince me that skipping a boss is "cheating", and I can't convince you that it isn't.

That being said - this is Iggy's thread. I had the pleasure of chatting with him on Enjin over the last couple of days and he acknowledges that this thread is NOT the end all be all of progression threads - but it's definitely a good start since he's dedicated and puts the work in.

Personally, I'm fine with whatever IGGY decides. That being said, I'd LOVE to get started a legit SWTOR progression site that doesn't fold. The problem with that is, since there is no API, we have to still rely on screen shots (think bosskillers.com). I've actually reached out to Kernel from wowprogress.com to partner with and see what can be done, but PM me on Enjin (username: Enkay) if anyone wants to observe this option together.

Iggy - feel free to reach out if you have any interest in working together on this.

honestly people are just knit picking at this point. What if in the next tier of progression someone chooses to reset oloks board until they get a favorable board to down the encounter? What if someone encounters a bug that causes the boss to autodie? what if what if...I deal with what is and what is is that bosses died.

You're always free to retreat from this discussion... I personally will go this step, because i can't stand your attitude and don't want to argue with you. I said my part, everyone can read it, repeating it over and over and over will only take me to your level, nothing i want to achieve

You're always free to retreat from this discussion... I personally will go this step, because i can't stand your attitude and don't want to argue with you. I said my part, everyone can read it, repeating it over and over and over will only take me to your level, nothing i want to achieve

That comment you made there makes you look like a knight in shining armor. You don't have to like me you dont have to agree with me you dont have to argue with me you just have to look at the facts. Fact = bosses died. The end.

H: Jin'rokh the Breaker (25) 1019 (42.04%)

H: Horridon (25) 647 (26.69%)

H: Council of Elders (25) 401 (16.54%)

H: Tortos (25) 596 (24.59%)

H: Megaera (25) 428 (17.66%)

H: Ji-Kun (25) 584 (24.09%)

H: Durumu the Forgotten (25) 273 (11.26%)

H: Primordius (25) 329 (13.57%)

H: Dark Animus (25) 213 (8.79%)

H: Iron Qon (25) 394 (16.25%)

H: Twin Consorts (25) 303 (12.50%)

H: Lei Shen (25) 90 (3.71%)

H: Ra-den (25) 81 (3.34%)

WoWProgress from the latest tier - this raid is LINEAR and each boss has to be killed in order to unlock the next. Notice how several bosses later in the raid have more kills than bosses previous to them? This is something done in that game for the past 3-4 years (swapping NM/HM) to farm gear and is seen as a normal strategy. Yet doing so here is met with so much angst and disgust from some players.

As stated above, happy to go with what Iggy decides for this thread, but it's reasons like above why I would *LOVE* a website with an actual point algorithm like wowprogress.

After mulling it over with a few people and having some discussions with Enkay (D&T GM) I have decided to not accept the remaining boss kills and subsequent NiM TFB clear that resulted from D&T skipping the Dread Guards encounter. D&T will not be disqualified from this Progression thread and are welcomed to continue participating if they wish. Once they clear the instance in order I will record their kills with their new times.

Enkay and I just couldn't come to a consensus but he reminded me that it is my thread and I am free to make whatever decision I deem fair. SWTOR raiding is linear and every boss must be defeated in order. Skipping a boss in this game means lowering the difficulty of the instance to do so. That is proof enough for me to believe in the linearity of SWTOR Ops.

 

There a lot of good guilds that accepted the challenge that is Dread Guards. A fight that my guild proved last night is doable as we got Kel'Sara to 10% even though we got three Ciphas shields in the first phase. We were consistently getting two shields but on that fateful attempt we got three. So we believe it's doable, though very challenging.

 

But the guilds that have accepted the challenge should be rewarded if they complete it. And as far my spreadsheet and this progression thread is concerned the World First titles and US First titles are still up for grabs.

 

There is nothing official about my progression thread. If you participate I will track your progression and it gives everyone something central to look at instead of digging through Server Forums to find out who killed what first.

 

With that being said I told Enkay that he and D&T are free to claim the WF Clear elsewhere. I think everyone knows how it was accomplished and each individual in the community can look at the facts and make up their own minds if that claim is legit or not. For me, I have made up my mind and this progression thread will not recognize it.

I may be one of the few with an issue with the bolded part of the statement. As close as many guilds are to downing the Dread Guards, easily the hardest fight in the instance, any sort of edge is huge. Truth be told, 3 more bosses equals 3 more loot drops. These 3 more loot drops don't make a massive amount of difference, but when you have many guilds getting the hardest fight to the low health percentages that they have, those 3 loot drops can turn the fight from very difficult, to just plain difficult.

The bosses were downed through an unfortunate loophole in SWTOR's current raiding setup. I have no doubt in D&T's raid ability, I have seen them clear content with ease. They cleared this instance on the PTS and I believe that with more time they could have cleared the instance without skipping the boss. Less than two days were given to work on the hardest fight, in the hardest instance, in the hardest difficulty. I do not think they should be discredited as a guild or even that what they did wasn't the best choice. They simply used the "work smarter, not harder" approach.

Nonetheless, cheers D&T, you are the world first to have those pieces of gear.

H: Jin'rokh the Breaker (25) 1019 (42.04%)

H: Horridon (25) 647 (26.69%)

H: Council of Elders (25) 401 (16.54%)

H: Tortos (25) 596 (24.59%)

H: Megaera (25) 428 (17.66%)

H: Ji-Kun (25) 584 (24.09%)

H: Durumu the Forgotten (25) 273 (11.26%)

H: Primordius (25) 329 (13.57%)

H: Dark Animus (25) 213 (8.79%)

H: Iron Qon (25) 394 (16.25%)

H: Twin Consorts (25) 303 (12.50%)

H: Lei Shen (25) 90 (3.71%)

H: Ra-den (25) 81 (3.34%)

 

WoWProgress from the latest tier - this raid is LINEAR and each boss has to be killed in order to unlock the next. Notice how several bosses later in the raid have more kills than bosses previous to them? This is something done in that game for the past 3-4 years (swapping NM/HM) to farm gear and is seen as a normal strategy. Yet doing so here is met with so much angst and disgust from some players.

 

As stated above, happy to go with what Iggy decides for this thread, but it's reasons like above why I would *LOVE* a website with an actual point algorithm like wowprogress.

It doesn't necessarily mean people skipped the boss right from the start.

I know during 16m EC progression guilds absolutely skipped both T&Z NiM and SC&FB NiM AFTER they already downed them. NiM Vorgath was a joke and free loot though so he probably has more kills scored against him than any other boss in the instance.

So much whine, watch WoW progression there is nothing wrong to skip boss if he is not doable, wowprogress just lower points on kill if guild that skiped him, down it later and that is all. But our holy internet crusaders start to crying about that move. Personaly i want to give a thanks to DnT for their will to progress. P.S. Haters gonna hate anyway.

I don't have any problem with DnT skipping the DG, and I think their accomplishments should be recognized. I don't think anyone would disagree that either the DG fight is bugged or setup wrong (or all the other fights are way undertuned.)

BUT, I believe that all this drama could have been reduced by things being handled differently at the outset of the "overtuned" thread:

1. In the beginning of that thread, it contained "IMPOSSIBLE" and "mathematically impossible". These are pretty heavy-handed statements. Later on in that thread, when SF got to 10%, seems there is a pretty good chance this was inaccurate and premature.

2. Throughout that thread there was a tremendous amount of hostility and rudeness when the idea of "impossibility" was challenged. Karl in particular was incredibly snide to Tam and some others.

This set things off on the wrong foot and it never really recovered.

Had the word "impossible" not been tossed around, and had there been fewer "GFTO" type responses, I believe the high drama would have been absent.

Had the word "impossible" not been tossed around, and had there been fewer "GFTO" type responses, I believe the high drama would have been absent.

Agreed, but my OP never said "impossible", it said "overtuned".

WoWProgress from the latest tier - this raid is LINEAR and each boss has to be killed in order to unlock the next. Notice how several bosses later in the raid have more kills than bosses previous to them? This is something done in that game for the past 3-4 years (swapping NM/HM) to farm gear and is seen as a normal strategy. Yet doing so here is met with so much angst and disgust from some players.

 

As stated above, happy to go with what Iggy decides for this thread, but it's reasons like above why I would *LOVE* a website with an actual point algorithm like wowprogress.

Kinda why I don't play wow. Now I remember the legendary DnT from Wow, up until they called it quits either right b4 or after sunwelll. They literally wrote the books for boss strategies. And as a member of Fires of Heaven I was jealous, no joke cause we were in a no win situation, if we had the first kill, it would of been looked upon as cheating cause Alex got a job as a developer with Blizzard. Now I take the assumption that you are the DnT of legend in the MMO, though i've seen the name ripped off many a times.

Here's how I see it. This boss is rough, and to some mathematically impossible and after watching some dps meters on streams for them that's correct. You debated in your guild to move on past the boss for whatever reason. As a supervisor in the Navy I make it quite clear to my younger sailors as was told to me, If you have to debate it you know your doing wrong. So your reason was to see if other bosses were "bugged" and I give that a legitimate reason to do it. But the high road could of been taken and seen on OP IX that is wasn't and /stucked.

You didn't and went forth through the rest of the raid. And not only did you go forth you killed the final boss, that you know people take as a prestigious kill. Then you post the strategies and kill videos everywhere, with links and everything. Why do that then to do nothing other then to taint any kill from here on out. And now your laughing about it, and if you say your not you should read what your people write.

Now I have always had the utmost respect for guilds that have beaten me in progression, especially guilds that have lasted the test of time, and say what you want haters gonna hate, butt hurt, jealous. Say it all you want but it sounds more like to me regardless to what you have posted before. First meant everything, and you didn't care, am sorry man I guess am more disappointed cause I thought the raiding guilds in THIS game had a small code of nerd honor. If you don't think that extra gear on this fight when you go in on Tuesday, isn't going to help, then I have truly underestimated the intelligence of this community.

Nonetheless give credit where credit is to go Congratz on your 3 kills

Had the word "impossible" not been tossed around, and had there been fewer "GFTO" type responses, I believe the high drama would have been absent.

I think that's a pretty optimistic view of things. We're in a pretty competitive, albeit small, community. That and the fact this is on the internet leads me to expect venom no matter what's being posted.

I titled the video, at least, and I'll stand by it. I know that whenever you make an absolute statement like calling something impossible, there's always a danger of being proven wrong.

Most of us on my side of the argument have stated multiple times that if we are proven wrong we'll be happy to acknowledge it.

Part of the reason we'll be happy to acknowledge it is because the larger point remains - the dread guard fight in 8 man with its current enrage timer is wildly out of step compared to the difficulty of both the rest of the instance and the rest of the game. If the level of both skill and dumb luck re: RNG required to defeat it at current gear levels was intended by Bioware, then I'm a purple-assed baboon.

If you have to debate it you know your doing wrong.

This is one of the most meaningless statements in existence because it self-validates no matter what you apply it to.

If you're trying to make an argument that we did something wrong, try doing something other than resorting to platitudes.

Agreed, but my OP never said "impossible", it said "overtuned".

Well, you said "impossible given our current gear level", and Karl said, "mathematically impossible given the current gear level"

Then in another post on the first page, Karl said "impossible = bad"

That's when Tam started challenging the idea of "mathematically impossible" and got some serious heavy-handed responses from Karl.

On page 3, countpopeula also claimed that it was "mathematically impossible"

I think that's a pretty optimistic view of things. We're in a pretty competitive, albeit small, community. That and the fact this is on the internet leads me to expect venom no matter what's being posted.

This is a totally fair statement, and I don't disagree.

I still believe that when KBN started to challenge the "mathematically impossible", had Karl not responded with such vitriol and contempt, we would be in a better place on that thread.

Part of the reason we'll be happy to acknowledge it is because the larger point remains - the dread guard fight in 8 man with its current enrage timer is wildly out of step compared to the difficulty of both the rest of the instance and the rest of the game. If the level of both skill and dumb luck re: RNG required to defeat it at current gear levels was intended by Bioware, then I'm a purple-assed baboon.

I agree, and I would not be the least surprised that the fight is quickly adjusted as a fixed mistake.

Well, you said "impossible given our current gear level", and Karl said, "mathematically impossible given the current gear level"

 

Then in another post on the first page, Karl said "impossible = bad"

 

That's when Tam started challenging the idea of "mathematically impossible" and got some serious heavy-handed responses from Karl.

 

On page 3, countpopeula also claimed that it was "mathematically impossible"

 

This is a totally fair statement, and I don't disagree.

 

I still believe that when KBN started to challenge the "mathematically impossible", had Karl not responded with such vitriol and contempt, we would be in a better place on that thread.

 

I agree, and I would not be the least surprised that the fight is quickly adjusted as a fixed mistake.

Got it, may have missed that in the heat of the moment. Just an aside, none of those people are in DnT in case you thought we were trying to argue the point into submission. As it stands, a 2nd boss of a tier shouldn't require NP buff and stacking DPS armoring to kill. Anyone remember Loatheb from Naxx 40?

As for the terror kill if you watch the video that happened on pure accident due to the bug and you can hear all of our disappointment upon seeing that.

Disappointment and laughter that something so deflating and gamebreaking happened, to be fair.

I may be one of the few with an issue with the bolded part of the statement.

I think it's pretty lame too.

Disappointment and laughter that something so deflating and gamebreaking happened, to be fair.

Oh Im straight butthurt over it...my butt literally hurt when that happened...I need some morphine stat

Got it, may have missed that in the heat of the moment. Just an aside, none of those people are in DnT in case you thought we were trying to argue the point into submission. As it stands, a 2nd boss of a tier shouldn't require NP buff and stacking DPS armoring to kill. Anyone remember Loatheb from Naxx 40?

Wow, my bad, I completely assumed Karl was in DnT. Looking back in the thread, I guess he's in Grey Order.

Agreed, but my OP never said "impossible", it said "overtuned".

It is the VoD that is associated with the OP that includes "Mathematically Impossible", and I agree 100%, that was a stupid title. It automatically flips a mental switch from the original intent of the thread: Tuning

A) This DG fight is NOT in step with the other fights. END OF STORY.

B) What can be said with 99.9% confidence is that nobody disagrees that this fight was untested, and is probably a symptom of poor testing (if any) before release. What can be (and I personally want to see a guild defeat this because I love the challenge) argued is that this fight is possible to defeat. <------- that is a completely separate topic.

C) Should this DG fight take a world sum total of 1,000+ attempts for one guild to get to 10%?

D) Should every comp have access to this fight since, in every other encounter in this game, they have been able to clear content at a high end level because of skill, not due in large part to class advantage?

I dont recall seeing any strats posted. I see some suggestions offered. Also would you have rather had us stop at operator and not see if there were bugs on other bosses? Also did you watch any of the videos? you can clearly hear our mumble comments and feedback. As for the terror kill if you watch the video that happened on pure accident due to the bug and you can hear all of our disappointment upon seeing that.

I haven't watched your videos no, nor do I intend to. Terror is unfortunate but my guess you've raided for a long time and we both know these things happen and I wouldn't nor couldn't hold whatever the issue is against you. But this isn't a PTR and you know that man. You know we're all racing towards a final goal. Am not debating the fight is over tuned, just to see the lengths that we have to go though to get it. But I've spent far more time on bosses then what I have on this guy, Kael'thas Sunstrider? Mu'ru pre nerf, Lady Vashj, C'thun, hell 40 man naxx 4 horseman. But thank you for addressing the rest of it, I know have a feeling we're on the same page. Once again Congratulations to you and your guild

So much /fail in this patch's NiM race. >__<; many weird rules, not written here, not posted in the OP that, its not in iggy's original set of rules, etc etc... urghhh.

Let's just make the NEXT NiM operation less of what this patch has become and agree on

1) no swapping into HM for NIM SnV, for all the guilds trying to still raid in this game.

Thats it!no swapping into HM.

Also no weird tactic/bug that reduces the difficulty of the encounter (something like sstanding on top of the box in Kephess EC lol that was a nifty trick). If your guild finds a bug in NiM thrasher that makes the tank take no dmg, report it publicly immediately! In my own words, to play honestly and make this game a "fun" experience for everyone!

In most WoW raids bosses can be killed in differing orders except for (typically) the first and last bosses. ICC, Firelands, and BWD all come to mind as examples. This is different because in TFB the bosses are linear.

This. If TFB isnt linear, you wouldnt have to kill second boss at all to get to the third, so all the logic about "switching to HM and continuing on NiM" is false. TFB requires linear progression. You decided to kill second boss on HM, fine, but you cant claim kills for any other boss after. Any progression tracking from now on is pointless. You cant even claim kill on second boss anymore, since you`ve got gear advantage. You also cant claim timed run for the same reason. That said, if you want your name for the world`s first, go for it. But we all know its not the real one.

As a non invested observer the biggest issue I see is still this,

 

 

 

Whether you changed your minds on the subject or not...you attempted to lay the ground rules and then, without coming back the the thread to get a community consensus, did the exact thing you requested others not do. Sure it wasn't a set rule, but it seemed to be agreed upon after your guild initially suggested it. Obviously you thought that the bosses were meant to be linear and only after you decided to go outside those bounds did you decide to change that opinion.

 

Brilliant strategy to get the progression points, just a jerk move.

yeah and then they said dont count them for it if nobody wanted to, they wanted to see if the rest of the instance was overtuned as badly as DG (it isnt)

quit making mountains out of molehills

This. If TFB isnt linear, you wouldnt have to kill second boss at all to get to the third, so all the logic about "switching to HM and continuing on NiM" is false. TFB requires linear progression. You decided to kill second boss on HM, fine, but you cant claim kills for any other boss after. Any progression tracking from now on is pointless. You cant even claim kill on second boss anymore, since you`ve got gear advantage. You also cant claim timed run for the same reason. That said, if you want your name for the world`s first, go for it. But we all know its not the real one.

Go back two pages if you want to use WoW as an example and read my post. The last tier (Throne of the Tides) was NOT linear and several guilds, including several of the top 20, swapped from NM/HM to farm gear for previous bosses.

The linear vs. non-linear argument is flawed. In fact, EVERY raid in this latest WoW expansion has been linear, and EVERY raid has guilds doing this. If you don't believe me go to wowprogress, proof is in the pudding.

Stop being so petty.