I know that in that other game with humans vs. something green the players of the green side often say that they are actually the good guys in the story. Does anyone feel that way about the Empire and/or their characters in SWTOR?

 

Personally i could never get past the thoughtless cruelty of the missions, such as persecuting the Evocii on Hutta and working against the "terrorists" aka Freedom fighters on Balmorra. Not to mention the casual racism, just replace the word "alien" with a real world ethnic minority and youll see that the Imps attitude is quite shocking.

Admittedly i never got past Hutta before the 12XP boost came and allowed me to skip all the unpleasantness. With 12XP i can handle dipping a toe into being incredibly horrible but i could never do it for long, so my main will always be Republic side.

 

This got me wondering about the players who stay on Imperial side for months or years. Are people reveling in the wickedness or do you see it differently somehow?

 

Anyhow id love to hear other opinions and a bit of back and forth on this.

Cheers.

 

<spoilers welcome>

One doesn't have to revel in it, or like it in real life, to enjoy the game story aspect of it.

 

Do you enjoy killing in RL? No? Then how do you handle your jedi/smuggler/trooper killing all those people on the way to the mission objective?

 

All that said, there's some who try to say the Empire is the good guys, but they're trolling There is no "This side is all grey" Empire is evil. That isn't to say there aren't good people in the Empire, but as a whole, in terms of beliefs, evil.

If anyone says the Empire is anything less than evil, they're delusional. Sending aliens off to slave labor camps for vandalism, and having no qualms about enslaving millions of people from every species. They also treat their slaves very poorly.

 

I mean, if you can honestly sit there and tell me you wouldn't have any quarrel with the Empire establishing rule of your planet, then I'd like an explanation.

Personally i could never get past the thoughtless cruelty of the missions, such as persecuting the Evocii on Hutta and working against the "terrorists" aka Freedom fighters on Balmorra.

 

The empire is evil, but the freedom fighters on balmora behave like terrorist, e.g. they use bombs against civilians. They fight against an evil government, but it doesn't change that they are terrorists.

 

The grey side in the conflict is the republic, because it does many "evil" things, like supporting terrorists and breaking the treaty. But I can understand, why the republic do most of the things.

I really do not like playing on the Empire side, because of what the Empire represents. But mechanically we are encouraged to play both sides, and the population is Empire-heavy, so it is easier to find an Empire guild, and stuff. So, I just run Imperials as suppliers, and Pub toons for pleasure.

 

I also like Pub stories better than the Imperial ones, because imo the Imperial ones are repetitive. It's all about becoming the most powerful in your Class EVAR and vanquishing your superior. Republic stories have more variety imo in how the character is and more diverse motivations for the characters.

 

Your success in the Empire upholds a horrific society. The only moral thing to do as an Imperial is to let your character die, as we are not allowed a story-line that joins in with any of the resistance factions. The faster, the better, because all the Imperial stories teach us that there is always someone who is younger and stronger and will take your miserable achievements away.

Edited September 20, 2015 by DomiSotto

I know that in that other game with humans vs. something green the players of the green side often say that they are actually the good guys in the story. Does anyone feel that way about the Empire and/or their characters in SWTOR?

 

Personally i could never get past the thoughtless cruelty of the missions, such as persecuting the Evocii on Hutta and working against the "terrorists" aka Freedom fighters on Balmorra. Not to mention the casual racism, just replace the word "alien" with a real world ethnic minority and youll see that the Imps attitude is quite shocking.

Admittedly i never got past Hutta before the 12XP boost came and allowed me to skip all the unpleasantness. With 12XP i can handle dipping a toe into being incredibly horrible but i could never do it for long, so my main will always be Republic side.

 

This got me wondering about the players who stay on Imperial side for months or years. Are people reveling in the wickedness or do you see it differently somehow?

 

Anyhow id love to hear other opinions and a bit of back and forth on this.

Cheers.

 

<spoilers welcome>

 

The Empire itself is evil, built upon the values and ideologies of the Dark Side as well as Human/Pureblood Sith supremacy. That doesn't mean that there aren't good individuals in the Empire: During the BH story on Hoth you meet a group of Republic and Imperial Prisoners who are helping each other out and whom never want to harm another person after their experiences together.

 

The republic itself is the good guys with values on individual liberties and egalitarianism (despite many individual planets being Aristocracies: I'm looking at you Alderaan) however there are many who operate in a very gray area such as on Coruscant you see apathy towards alien species in the lower levels and on Corellia General Garza all but orders you abandon civilians to their deaths and on another mission you're all but ordered to kill civilians on the Rocket Trams.

 

I don't consider the Empire personally to be the good guys, they're conquerors and genocidal slavers, but there are good individuals within it

I also like Pub stories better than the Imperial ones, because imo the Imperial ones are repetitive. It's all about becoming the most powerful in your Class EVAR and vanquishing your superior. Republic stories have more variety imo in how the character is and more diverse motivations for the characters.

 

Yea no. While that is true for the Sith classes, the bounty hunter and imperial agent are not about "vanquishing your superior"

 

Bounty Hunter (Spoiler for Bounty Hunter Story)

 

 

 

 

Imperial Agent (Spoiler for IA Story, do not read if you don't want to get it spoiled)

 

 

 

 

But yes it's all about "vanquishing your superiors"

 

So, On Topic:

 

No, the empire is not good. But that's the reason why so many players play it, I guess. You can be the bad guy without facing real consequences. As a Sith you can kill an incompetent officer just for the fun of it. You can do, what you could never do in real life: Being bad.

All the difference between the BH/IA stories and the SIth stories is that they have to become the Best in their Class EVAR to sort out personal problems. Like staying alive. Oh, wait! That's exactly what the Sith do too.

 

The whole 'for the people of the Empire' drift in the IA story is so insincere, and really does not go to the heart. You gotta be more delusional than Mako to buy it. There is literally never been a single example of the IA meeting those people of the Empire that are worth any efforts. Most positive Imperial characters are actually encountered in Republic stories, like that officer on Hoth planetary story.

 

Yes, most folks do not go and kill others because they feel they are irritating unless you are misfortune enough to be born in the parts of the world that are ruled by the gangs. On the other hand, we also do not have what it takes in real life to be a hero either. I'd rather self-insert as a hero than as a thug.

Edited September 20, 2015 by DomiSotto

The Keeper said it "This is not glorious work, we clean up after the Sith and the Military"

 

And the Republic Characters? "OH NOEZ SOME BAD IMPERIAL DUDE COULD BRING ZE REPUBLIC TO IT'S KNEES, KILL/DEFEAT HIM FOR THE STUPID WARMONGER....uhhh CHANCELLOR!!!!11111one"

 

See? The Jedi both fight a powerful force user to rescue the republic, the trooper fights a general to save the republic, only the smuggler could "turn" against the republic in his ending.

 

You say the empire stories are all the same, well yes, the same goes for the republic stories.

And I rather have "I started from the bottom..." like the inquisitor than the "OMG YOU ARE HERO!!!!" story of the jedi knight

The dark side is the "evil" factor - note its corrupting effect, and those of either faction can be thus "good" or "evil".

That being said, as an institution, the Empire is leans more to the dark, both in its leadership and its principles <slavery, planetary structures that are more prison than habitats>.

 

However, let us not judge players based on what characters they play - as actors, you play a role. You are not that person. Games are also played as a means of escape - you can do things in a game you cannot do in real life, with no one really being hurt, injured, etc. Whether you feel this is something that can adversely affect ones own moral standards is something that probably cannot be settled on these forums.

Evil Is A Word Used By The Ignorant And The Weak.The Dark Side Is About Survival.It's About Unleashing Your Inner Power.It Glorifies THe Strengh Of The Individual"Darth Zannah.

There's definitely good and evil on both sides and I think BioWare does a pretty good job of not making it so cut and dry. When playing a LS sith inquisitor for example my character always shows mercy towards his enemies, saves innocents, is very reasonable, etc...yet despite the fact that he's a good person who helps people, jedi and republic soldiers try to kill him on sight, even when he's being peaceful toward them. Trying to murder someone without giving them a chance is pretty evil to me.

And that's exactly what is boring for me about the Empire: the smae motivation. To become the most powerful individual in your vocation.

 

In the Republic stories, only Jedi Knight suffers from this flaw of self-importance. The Consular seeks to heal, first someone close to her, then the individuals she hardly know, then the nation that is appealing, then the Alliance made up of unpleasant individuals. She grows in gratitude. The Trooper's story is about discovering the nature of patriotism and the value of duty, the kind of qualities we left behind in the pursuit of personal happiness and fulfillment. And the Smuggler is a fantastic story about a guy who is getting by by no small measure of luck.

 

From all the Imperial stories, I like the BH the most simply because the protagonist's attitude is an ultimate Mary Sue. He's just that tough, and it is hard not to buy into it.

 

Nobody is judging the players but what they chose to RP. Just some of us prefer one over another. I have by now played all the stories, some of them - twice, tried light and dark, and all that. And in the end, Republic it is.

There really is no "good" or "evil". The whole good and evil thing depends entirely on your view.

Oh, no. There is pure evil. In Brother's Karamazoff's Alesha is faced with a question "What would you do with a slaver who made a mother watch her husband and children being chased and ripped apart by the hunting dogs for amusement." Alesha says: "Death", and that's coming from a character that is a pure good person.

 

There are things that are pure good or pure evil, and there is no hiding behind any rationalizations. Sith Empire is certainly a social construct that allows pure evil to be committed within the legal framework.

Oh, no. There is pure evil. In Brother's Karamazoff's Alesha is faced with a question "What would you do with a slaver who made a mother watch her husband and children being chased and ripped apart by the hunting dogs for amusement." Alesha says: "Death", and that's coming from a character that is a pure good person.

 

There are things that are pure good or pure evil, and there is no hiding behind any rationalizations. Sith Empire is certainly a social construct that allows pure evil to be committed within the legal framework.

 

And the Republic is responsible for countless deaths as well, the Jedi leaving worlds and innocents to death. The Empire is the more known "evil" but the Leadership for the Republic is very bad as well.

Oh, no. There is pure evil. In Brother's Karamazoff's Alesha is faced with a question "What would you do with a slaver who made a mother watch her husband and children being chased and ripped apart by the hunting dogs for amusement." Alesha says: "Death", and that's coming from a character that is a pure good person.

 

 

I wonder why you gave this example when telling us that there is most definitely good and evil. And what is the answer (death) suppose to be....good one? evil one?. Because I can't see how it can be just one or the other. For me if we are forced to define - it it is ''selfish''...

 

....sorry about that, but please just answer me this: why did you gave the above example?

I don't consider the Empire personally to be the good guys, they're conquerors and genocidal slavers, but there are good individuals within it

This. From an RP perspective, for some players there's a certain appeal in playing a good guy who just happens to be fighting for the wrong side.

 

That's not to say that the Republic in general -- and the Jedi in particular -- are the perfect paragons of virtue they're often touted as. I find Saresh to be a particularly egregious example of a bad guy masquerading as a hero. She's only gotten worse since Taris.

The Empire is definetally the good guys!

 

The sith were driven from their homeworld previously before swtor!

 

But thankfully after a thousand years, they are finally able to return to their home planet of korriban! (Yay!)

 

All the sith empire wants is peace in the galaxy, but the Republic and their Jedi keep wanting to maintain this war instead of accepting the empires peaceful solution. So countless planets are swept up in this meaningless galactic war. If only the republic just surrendered, then all this bloodshed could be avoided.

 

You see, Jedi are not allowed to love. If one cannot love, how can one have the compassion to lead? They do not mourn the dead, because they disregarde emotion, nor do they care if people die, because they dont believe in death. To them, there is no death, only the force.

There really is no "good" or "evil". The whole good and evil thing depends entirely on your view.

The way I read this thread is that it's all about points of view. Do any players consider the Empire to be the good guys? Whether you believe there's a fundamental or universal answer to the question isn't a problem.

 

And the Republic is responsible for countless deaths as well, the Jedi leaving worlds and innocents to death. The Empire is the more known "evil" but the Leadership for the Republic is very bad as well.

I don't get what you mean by "leaving worlds and innocents to death". Which occasions are you thinking of?

I don't get what you mean by "leaving worlds and innocents to death". Which occasions are you thinking of?

 

I guess he means Balmorra, which had to be abandoned by both the jedi order and the republic. Balmorrans tell you that like a 100 times when you get there as a republic player "You abandoned us! The empire killed my cousin because you weren't there" (just an example)

 

Thats the only planet in SWTOR I could think of, that was abandoned by the republic and can be visited.

....sorry about that, but please just answer me this: why did you gave the above example?

 

Because I am used to this literary example being brought up as an example of pure evil being condemned by someone who is considered pure good.

 

And, despite the fallibility of an individual in the Republic that leads to corruption or decisions that are not morally right, as a system Republic promotes and strives towards good, while as a system the Empire promotes and strives for evil.

 

Personally i could never get past the thoughtless cruelty of the missions, such as persecuting the Evocii on Hutta and working against the "terrorists" aka Freedom fighters on Balmorra. Not to mention the casual racism, just replace the word "alien" with a real world ethnic minority and youll see that the Imps attitude is quite shocking.

Admittedly i never got past Hutta before the 12XP boost came and allowed me to skip all the unpleasantness. With 12XP i can handle dipping a toe into being incredibly horrible but i could never do it for long, so my main will always be Republic side.

 

This got me wondering about the players who stay on Imperial side for months or years. Are people reveling in the wickedness or do you see it differently somehow?

 

Regarding "freedom fighters" on Balmorra-IIRC (its some time since I played IA) their means aren´t exactly harmless, they use sabotage, bombings (which probably killed more than few civilians) etc. This all qualifies them as terrorist, in my opinioin. They use terror as their weapon after all. Somewhere, don´t know origin, I heard quote "One Man's Freedom Fighter is Another Man's Terrorist". They think themselves as heroic resistance fighters (and Republic propaganda probably speaks of them as such), but from Empire point of view, they are terorists. If situation would be reversed, and planet was conquered (aka "liberated" in Rep propaganda)) be Republic, and there were loyal imperial citizens doing what balmorrans were doing, but to republic, trying to force Republic from their planet, would you call them terrorists or freedom fighters? There is plenty examples in RL too, Viet Cong, Che Guevara, or any other.

Wow, this was meant as short answer before going on to topic of "good Empire"

I don´t exactly consider them good, after all, there is no flawless type of government, but I would take Empire over Republic any day of the week. Empire>Republic. Because Republic, despite all that noble ***** about "Liberty, Equality, Fraternity" etc. is corrupted government ruled by bunch of fat politicians, often not elected, but appointed, probably because of being friend with planets ruler, or his sponsor, or whatever, whose only desire is to farm even more money, and don´t caring about Republic or its defense and which never seen combat or don´t understand it. On contrary, Empire leaders are expert fighters, who have experience in both hand to hand, and in large scale combat. Empire uses slavery, yes, but Republic turns blind eye on it, if it suits it, or if money in someones pocket is good. (see one Coruscant mission). In Republic, climbing up a ladder is more often than not not about abilities, but about friends, or friends of friends etc. In Empire, it´s about your abilities. We can see, that even alien slave can climb up to the top. (SI). In Empire best way for non-sensitive to make career is to join the army, and as Imp. army is much larger, than Republic one there are more opportunities. In Empire, Army is admired as it protects it, which in turn is something I admire, while Republic, through times, don´t seem like much army fan (before Clone Wars, Republic had no army at all). EMpire is about centralised control, while Republic is "every system for itself" when it comes to Senate decisions (centralised government means unbiased strategic decisions, while it ś logical, that every senator would want it´s system to be one, where that shiny new fleet will be positioned.

And finally, Jedi X Sith. Sith are about using your full potential, using your strenght, your emotions, while Jedi are about suppressing it because of some old Code.

Wow, so much text. TL,DR Empire is not best, but its one of the best government in SW universe (bested only by Palpatine´s Empire and Remnant/Fel´s Empire). So yes, I consider it good, and i felt good protecting it and it´s citiziens in both IA and SI stories. In Rep. I only finished Trooper and I never felt so much motivated to fight for bunch of Senators.

So

"For the Emperor!!!"

Edited September 20, 2015 by tomkyselk

I don´t exactly consider them good, after all, there is no flawless type of government, but I would take Empire over Republic any day of the week. Empire>Republic. Because Republic, despite all that noble ***** about "Liberty, Equality, Fraternity" etc. is corrupted government ruled by bunch of fat politicians, often not elected, but appointed, probably because of being friend with planets ruler, or his sponsor, or whatever, whose only desire is to farm even more money, and don´t caring about Republic or its defense and which never seen combat or don´t understand it. On contrary, Empire leaders are expert fighters, who have experience in both hand to hand, and in large scale combat. Empire uses slavery, yes, but Republic turns blind eye on it, if it suits it, or if money in someones pocket is good. (see one Coruscant mission). In Republic, climbing up a ladder is more often than not not about abilities, but about friends, or friends of friends etc. In Empire, it´s about your abilities. We can see, that even alien slave can climb up to the top. (SI). In Empire best way for non-sensitive to make career is to join the army, and as Imp. army is much larger, than Republic one there are more opportunities. In Empire, Army is admired as it protects it, which in turn is something I admire, while Republic, through times, don´t seem like much army fan (before Clone Wars, Republic had no army at all). EMpire is about centralised control, while Republic is "every system for itself" when it comes to Senate decisions (centralised government means unbiased strategic decisions, while it ś logical, that every senator would want it´s system to be one, where that shiny new fleet will be positioned.

 

To be honest the prospect of living in the Empire seems....quite horrible one to me:) It is a society ruled by fear...actually there is (imo) good chance that most people in it are ''good people'', but too afraid to do anything else than mask their fear and try to act as a sith.

About the needing only strength to advance - that actually pisses me off to be honest: why do we have to give the titles (and power) of lords to some thugs. Now there may be an exception among those thugs, but generally use them as some powerful unit/piece not give them power!

...and....hmm actually I wonder how easy it will be to start a revolution and remove the force users from power/take down the Dark Council (maybe with the exception of the emperor - because he is a truly powerful freak) and why no one have tried yet....

Jedi are nor about repressing their emotions. Jedi are about not being ruled by either an emotion or pursuit of personal gain or happiness. They will acknowledge, experience, but not act on the emotional impulse. We have very little culture of spirituality, contentment and forestalling immediate gratification left in the Western civilization, so the Jedi feel oddly cold, hard to understand, holier than though, what have you. Sith, are obviously easier to relate to, since they 'do what they want', a quintessential dream of any kid.

 

The problem is that this dream is only accessible t the strong, and is exercised at the expense of everyone else. Folks normally tend to like that but only as long as they got to self-insert into the role of the 'strong'.

 

BioWARE allows that self-insertion, but it does stay true more or less to the material, so there you have Zhorred too, and slaves that will be poisoned, and mass genocide in the name of the reign of terror, and that Twi'lek that Xalek slays, and collared slaves being handed out like trinkets, what not.

 

When someone fails in the Republic, there is mercy, and some understanding. There is a systematic attempt to protect the weak. It's not so scary and powerless to be in the Republic territory as a person with no particular talent as it is in the Empire.

 

The game allows to role-play a character that does some localized good choices in the Imperial setting, but because of the nature of a MMO, it being a rather static set-up, those choices do not impact the bigger picture, and as such the Empire remains as an entity an evil Sith Empire.

Edited September 20, 2015 by DomiSotto