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Memory Lane. - Remembering the Concealment Operative.

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Classes > Scoundrel / Operative
Memory Lane. - Remembering the Concealment Operative.

Epix's Avatar


Epix
12.09.2012 , 02:54 PM | #11
So true. I'm sure you remember. Everyone on this board and the scrapper board kept trying to tell all the people crying that it wasn't the class - it was the poor design of adrenals, relics and surge that caused us (i play scoundrel) to get hammered with the nerf bat. Also, not only did you put the target at full resolve using a back to back shoot first/hidden strike you also blew your vanish making you incredibly vulnerable after that opening.

randiesel's Avatar


randiesel
12.09.2012 , 03:09 PM | #12
Low burst damage compared to current high performers, despite being billed as a burst class.

BioWare, please see the importance of this statement.

8k smashes, 7k mauls, etc.

We are usually 4-5k Hidden Strikes and Backstabs if we are lucky, but nowhere near 8k. And smash's cooldown can be reduced using Viscous Slash, and also makes the next smash free.

We're still going to be seen as a "burst class" by all of the people who don't play an operative or a scoundrel, but in truth we are not as bursty as other melee ACs anymore.

Awesome thread, and done very professionally I might add. If anyone at BW ignores this, they are a moron and undeserving of our money.
Covert-sin
Covert-ops

Skolops's Avatar


Skolops
12.09.2012 , 06:32 PM | #13
Quote: Originally Posted by randiesel View Post
Low burst damage compared to current high performers, despite being billed as a burst class.

BioWare, please see the importance of this statement.

8k smashes, 7k mauls, etc.

We are usually 4-5k Hidden Strikes and Backstabs if we are lucky, but nowhere near 8k. And smash's cooldown can be reduced using Viscous Slash, and also makes the next smash free.

We're still going to be seen as a "burst class" by all of the people who don't play an operative or a scoundrel, but in truth we are not as bursty as other melee ACs anymore.

Awesome thread, and done very professionally I might add. If anyone at BW ignores this, they are a moron and undeserving of our money.
The problem with this class is not the burst, really. It's the fact that it can do the burst combined with such a strong stunlock. Nerfing the ability to stunlock, while returning some of the overall damage to the burst, might be a viable option, but simply giving that damage back without changing the stun is not an option.

Heck, I still on occasion go from 100% to 20% over the course of a single stun on my fully WH geared KC Shadow and my Wh geared Gunslinger - and I know how to use my break at the right time in their sequence, too. Make no mistake - concealment/scrapper can still do *insane* and, frankly, a little bit overpowered amounts of burst. That doesn't mean other classes, like PTs, can't, too, but I just think it's silly to try to somehow claim that this class has poor damage by any means.
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randiesel's Avatar


randiesel
12.09.2012 , 06:47 PM | #14
Quote: Originally Posted by Skolops View Post
The problem with this class is not the burst, really. It's the fact that it can do the burst combined with such a strong stunlock. Nerfing the ability to stunlock, while returning some of the overall damage to the burst, might be a viable option, but simply giving that damage back without changing the stun is not an option.

Heck, I still on occasion go from 100% to 20% over the course of a single stun on my fully WH geared KC Shadow and my Wh geared Gunslinger - and I know how to use my break at the right time in their sequence, too. Make no mistake - concealment/scrapper can still do *insane* and, frankly, a little bit overpowered amounts of burst. That doesn't mean other classes, like PTs, can't, too, but I just think it's silly to try to somehow claim that this class has poor damage by any means.
Honestly, I see where you're going with that. And I mostly agree.

We need to be able to burst a little bit more, but if you take out stuns or nerf them a bit, we need more in the way of defense. If they give TOO much in the way of defense, we basically become a shadow/assassin, and that's not the intent either. So it's kind of a problem no matter which way you look at it.

We have literally nothing in the way of defense, especially vs force users, and they account for most of the population. Honestly, I'm one of the ones who does really well with the class, but we are like punching through a sheet of paper when it comes to defense.

On the flip side, I go against a competent shadow/assassin and he immediately goes immune to my tech damage and can do some really nasty burst damage as well, plus they have the same amount of stuns an operative does, minus the mez. Spike and Electrocute vs Hidden Strike and Debilitate, Spike can be used outside of stealth to be clear, if they play tank/hybrid spec. And in a fight of 2 equally skilled players, the shadow/assassin should pull out on top as well because they also have an execute, which Ops lack.

All in all, a shadow/assassin is much better outside of stealth and they don't really even need to rely for their opener (spike) to give them an edge. Ops/scrappers require stealth as part of our opening rotation to give us any edge and a good part of our defense as we're very poor outside of stealth, even though that's where a good Op/scrapper will spend most of our time.

That last paragraph is what I see being the biggest problem for BW to address, and do it in a manner that both makes the game more enjoyable playing an Op as well as not any less enjoyable to those falling victim to the Op.
Covert-sin
Covert-ops

chuixupu's Avatar


chuixupu
12.09.2012 , 07:18 PM | #15
Concealment Operative was the first class I rolled, and I played as dps all the way up until we started doing hard mode EC, when I realized it just wasn't fun nor effective as I'd like, especially after all the nerfs. I switched to playing a sniper about that point (and went heals on the operative), and while I really love the sniper, I'd love for dps operatives to get some love in the future. I'm not going to get my hopes up for it, though.
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Syberduh's Avatar


Syberduh
12.09.2012 , 09:16 PM | #16
Quote: Originally Posted by Skolops View Post
The problem with this class is not the burst, really. It's the fact that it can do the burst combined with such a strong stunlock. Nerfing the ability to stunlock, while returning some of the overall damage to the burst, might be a viable option, but simply giving that damage back without changing the stun is not an option.
Honestly, this just isn't the case. Every AC in the game has significant cc in the forms of stuns, mezzes, roots, and snares. Ops are not significantly better and in many situations are worse. A PT can keep you stunned longer than an op (not mezzed, straight up stunned -- 6.5 - 7 secs vs 5.5). A carnage marauder can lock you down with roots far more effectively than an op. Sins have everything ops have and more. Ops frustrate the hell out of unsupported snipers not because they have better stunlock than other classes, but because they can start the battle in melee range, can easily cleanse sniper roots, and can use evasion to negate long-cast/channel heavy hitting sniper spells.

Quote:
Heck, I still on occasion go from 100% to 20% over the course of a single stun on my fully WH geared KC Shadow and my Wh geared Gunslinger - and I know how to use my break at the right time in their sequence, too. Make no mistake - concealment/scrapper can still do *insane* and, frankly, a little bit overpowered amounts of burst. That doesn't mean other classes, like PTs, can't, too, but I just think it's silly to try to somehow claim that this class has poor damage by any means.
The only way I can see this happening is if both your cc break and resilience are down and the op crits hidden strike then backstab then explosive probe and the first lacerate. This brings up another point: crits. The op is completely dependent on crits to do worthwhile damage and has no way to proc them. Most geared ops will crit hidden strike 50-ish percent of the time and 65% on backstab. All other attacks will crit around 35% with no way to increase. The burstiest stunlock open I can think of is (acid blade) Hidden strike --> Debilitate --> lacerate --> Explosive probe --> (acid blade) backstab (this will wreck your energy management, btw). You'll crit on all of them (ignoring debilitate which does low damage) and do about 4.5k (+2k dot) + 3k + 3.5k + 4k (+2k dot) 19k damage to a medium armor target about .5 * .35 * .35 * .65 = ~4% of the time. You'll crit on the biggest 3 attacks ~ 11% of the time. You'll crit on just HS + BS about 30% of the time. It's a lottery with pretty dismal odds.
Ushanev Syberjugg<Illegal Test Kitchen>
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Shadodragon's Avatar


Shadodragon
12.09.2012 , 09:20 PM | #17
Quote: Originally Posted by KyoMamoru View Post
Game Update 1.2 - Legacy
4/12/2012
  • Inclement Conditioning is now a 2-point skill. [Nerf - used to be a 3 point skill.]
Wouldn't this be a buff? If you gain the same benefit for a lower investment of skill points, it's a buff not a nerf.

Quote:
  • Meticulously Kept Blades no longer increases Energy gained by Stim Boost. This effect is now part of Culling.[Nerf - Reduces effectiveness of a talent point without adding value.]
You can't count this as a nerf when the effect was moved to another ability in the line. It's a push at worst.

Quote:
Game Update 1.4: Terror From Beyond
9/26/2012
  • Advanced Cloaking now additionally reduces the cooldown of Sneak by 7.5 seconds per point. It also now reduces the cooldown of Cloaking Screen by 15 seconds per point (down from 30 seconds per point). [Nerf - reduces effectiveness of a talent point.]
This is also not a nerf. The ability "Cloaking Screen" had it's base cooldown reduced with this patch. With Advanced Cloaking Screen, the total cooldown equals what it was in 1.3. A push in regards to Cloaking Screen for Concealment Ops. A buff for other Operatives.
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NoTomorrow's Avatar


NoTomorrow
12.10.2012 , 06:40 AM | #18
PvE concealment can be looked at. But for PvP, it was a ridiculous spec and it deserved all those nerfs. 3 sec for jarring strike? Jesus Christ..
Quote: Originally Posted by EricMusco View Post
Scatter Bombs are meant to be a fun bit of extra damage that occurs when you roll into or away from the action. That said, we’re okay with you trapping an unsuspecting enemy for a “wall bang” every now and then.

dego-harmonium's Avatar


dego-harmonium
12.10.2012 , 08:54 AM | #19
I do not think operatives are that far off the pack once they get the warrior AC's back in line, assasins also need a bit of a lookover pvp wise.

Two things i would like to see from playing a concealment operative in pvp and pve at times


Remove the acid blade activation skill - all hidden strikes and backstabs have that skill automatically added to it once it is trained in concealment (or remove the 10 energy it consumes) by removing the 10 energy it consumes it would allow opertives to pepper in an overload shot more frequently upping their dps to be on par with most classes

Add another in combat stealth - Add a skill similar to force camo, a non combat breaking stealth that gives us the chance to hidden stike more frequently, maybe on a 90 second cooldown. This would help both aspects of the play since operatives do not have an execute skill it would allow us to use our main opening attack more frequently, and for PVE it would give us a bit more DPS and allow us to pop stimboost without sacrificing a lacerate.

Oh and WATTUP COVERT!
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oaceen's Avatar


oaceen
12.10.2012 , 09:19 AM | #20
Quote: Originally Posted by Shadodragon View Post
Wouldn't this be a buff? If you gain the same benefit for a lower investment of skill points, it's a buff not a nerf.
i agree with the rest of your assessment, but wasn't it a 3 point skill for 6% endurance before and now a 2 point skill for only 4% endurance?