I leveled as and am continuing to play as Hybrid (1/12/28) DPS spec, and I quite enjoy the mobility and instant CC that it provides, but I've been getting a bit of flak from one of my server's Sages, stating that Hybrid is too faceroll and that only the truly good Sages play Telekinetics because it's a spec for smarter players and blows Balance and Hybrid out of the water when played correctly.

I've been under the impression that there is little to no difference between the 3 most talked about DPS specs, but I've also seen the proof in differences between a Marauder who does just as much dps as me, and a really good Marauder who destroys everyone's dps in raids, and considered this might also be a possible case where the more complicated spec of Telekinetics could potentially be better if it's played to it fullest and will outperform Hybrid and Balance even at their best.

I've been considering switching specs because I do want to bring the best dps I can, but just how difficult are we talking about here that Telekinetics is a better dps spec but only if it's played by a Smarter player?

All 3 specc's TK/Balance/Hybrid should be within 1% of each other when you are talking single target, tank and spank DPS. With Hybrid winning, Balance coming in second, and TK last.

Emphasis on single target. This will includes most of the T1 Operation Encounters and most importantly the Operation Dummy.

However as a Lightning Sorcerer I can tell you, Denova will favor a Telekinetic build so much its almost as if the Operation wad designed for us.

The first two bosses have two mobs. DoT both, enjoy the increased procc's of Lightning Barrage (Forget the TK Mirror). Technically you can do this with Hybrid as well, but Telekinetic will have an easier time due to the force regen.

The last two encounters in Denova are built for Chain Lightning and Telekinetic Wave. Hybrid and Balance AOE capabilities are nothing compared to what a good TK Sage can lay down. Force in Balance is mediocre AOE and without the force regen it will be hard to spam Forcequake.

Overall its up to you. Like I said I play Lightning through Denova and love it. I love the playstyle and love the damage I can do with it.

There is a learning curve to it though. I've tried teaching Lightning/TK to two other Sorcerers. One found it extremely difficult and couldn't get it (and subsequently found himself doing better with Balance/Madness). The other is slowly getting it but still working on it. They tell me the rotation is difficult to pick up, but I can do it with my eyes closed having played it for so long. So beware of that if you don't have experience with the specc.

Ultimately my advice is play what you like because you'll have more fun and you'll probably be better at playing the specc anyway.

All 3 specc's TK/Balance/Hybrid should be within 1% of each other when you are talking single target, tank and spank DPS. With Hybrid winning, Balance coming in second, and TK last.

 

Emphasis on single target. This will includes most of the T1 Operation Encounters and most importantly the Operation Dummy.

 

However as a Lightning Sorcerer I can tell you, Denova will favor a Telekinetic build so much its almost as if the Operation wad designed for us.

 

The first two bosses have two mobs. DoT both, enjoy the increased procc's of Lightning Barrage (Forget the TK Mirror). Technically you can do this with Hybrid as well, but Telekinetic will have an easier time due to the force regen.

 

The last two encounters in Denova are built for Chain Lightning and Telekinetic Wave. Hybrid and Balance AOE capabilities are nothing compared to what a good TK Sage can lay down. Force in Balance is mediocre AOE and without the force regen it will be hard to spam Forcequake.

 

Overall its up to you. Like I said I play Lightning through Denova and love it. I love the playstyle and love the damage I can do with it.

 

There is a learning curve to it though. I've tried teaching Lightning/TK to two other Sorcerers. One found it extremely difficult and couldn't get it (and subsequently found himself doing better with Balance/Madness). The other is slowly getting it but still working on it. They tell me the rotation is difficult to pick up, but I can do it with my eyes closed having played it for so long. So beware of that if you don't have experience with the specc.

 

Ultimately my advice is play what you like because you'll have more fun and you'll probably be better at playing the specc anyway.

Well said. TK has a steeper learning curve. I took about a week to get used to it, and now I love it for Denova.

One important point... it dishes 1% less damage than the other builds BUT it's a hell lot more fun and less boring than pebble spamming... TK sages will have to agree with me on this

Well said. TK has a steeper learning curve. I took about a week to get used to it, and now I love it for Denova.

 

One important point... it dishes 1% less damage than the other builds BUT it's a hell lot more fun and less boring than pebble spamming... TK sages will have to agree with me on this

I completely agree. Balance and Hybrid rotations are very stale and non-engaging.

Well, it is clear that you really love TK/lightning and that is all well and good, but I think you are being a bit unrealistic.

All 3 specc's TK/Balance/Hybrid should be within 1% of each other when you are talking single target, tank and spank DPS. With Hybrid winning, Balance coming in second, and TK last.

 

Does hybrid really win after double dipping was fixed?

 

Emphasis on single target. This will includes most of the T1 Operation Encounters and most importantly the Operation Dummy.

 

EV perhaps, but KP is similar to EC.

 

However as a Lightning Sorcerer I can tell you, Denova will favor a Telekinetic build so much its almost as if the Operation wad designed for us.

 

Not really, any of the Sage/Sorc builds can do well here in HM if in good gear.

 

The first two bosses have two mobs. DoT both, enjoy the increased procc's of Lightning Barrage (Forget the TK Mirror). Technically you can do this with Hybrid as well, but Telekinetic will have an easier time due to the force regen.

 

Balance Sage will end up having overlapping DoTs on Zorn/Toth (since with talents they have weaken mind and sever force at 16sec).

 

The last two encounters in Denova are built for Chain Lightning and Telekinetic Wave. Hybrid and Balance AOE capabilities are nothing compared to what a good TK Sage can lay down. Force in Balance is mediocre AOE and without the force regen it will be hard to spam Forcequake.

 

Forcequake + FiB is fine, and works well since FiB is instant, while TK wave aint anymore.

 

Overall its up to you. Like I said I play Lightning through Denova and love it. I love the playstyle and love the damage I can do with it.

 

I think players can play what they want.

 

There is a learning curve to it though. I've tried teaching Lightning/TK to two other Sorcerers. One found it extremely difficult and couldn't get it (and subsequently found himself doing better with Balance/Madness). The other is slowly getting it but still working on it. They tell me the rotation is difficult to pick up, but I can do it with my eyes closed having played it for so long. So beware of that if you don't have experience with the specc.

 

Maybe you could simply post your exact rotation here?

 

Ultimately my advice is play what you like because you'll have more fun and you'll probably be better at playing the specc anyway.

There is a gear curve with EC, especially HM, but once you get to mainly BH/campaign level gear then you will find that TK (lightning)/TK hybrid/ Balance (madness) builds can all work out here, though they do different things (and different types of dmg).

As with all 'new builds' you try out you have to get used to using them, but to be honest, all 3 builds are easy compared to the other classes i''ve tried.

Having to roll telekinetics for doing well at denova is just wrong, i havent done hybrid since the change, but i can reassure you that telekinetics and balance both do equally well in there. While you could argue that 'telekinetics' would do better because of its aoe ability, Telkinetic Wave only hits 5 targets, and the instant proc only happens once every 10 seconds. The main benefit tk has is that it doesn't run out of force easily (which actually makes it a lot more 'brainless' then balance).

All builds boil down to a 1-6 execution chain though, which is a lot easier then some of the other classes out there.

Main rule of thumb is to play what you're comfortable with, feel free to experiment and all, but when necessary just do what you're best at.

balance for pvp, tele for pve probably.

im balance on pvp, also can do tele/balance hybrid, works well also.

i wish i can someow see telekinetics improved in pvp, but it is really so useless unless in those rare situation where nobody notices you and you can stand like a turret and spam those long-time casts

Does hybrid really win after double dipping was fixed?

Yes. But like I said its a 1% difference. You're talking 10-20 DPS here.

EV perhaps, but KP is similar to EC.

I do not find KP and EC similar at all. The only similarity is each operation has a puzzle boss. Otherwise 3/5 fights in KP are tank and spank fights with no real mechanics.

Not really, any of the Sage/Sorc builds can do well here in HM if in good gear.

In my experience I've beaten the other builds.

Balance Sage will end up having overlapping DoTs on Zorn/Toth (since with talents they have weaken mind and sever force at 16sec).

Yes you can double Weaken Mind with Zorn/Toth. But Sever Force lasts 18 seconds and has a CD of 9 seconds. Furthermore have you actually tried to keep DoTs on two mobs with Balance? I have with Madness. Its very force intensive. The second you start having to using Consumption / NS - you've all ready started reducing your DPS.

Forcequake + FiB is fine, and works well since FiB is instant, while TK wave aint anymore.

TK Wave > FiB. Not even close. FiB hits 3 targets. TK Wave hits 5. Furthermore Balance's force regeneration cannot support many uses of Forcequake.

I've had a CL Procc up after the first Walker Burn Phase, and been able to CL > Force Storm > CL the first adds. No Balance of Hybrid Sage will ever beat a TK Sage's AoE as the game stands right now.

Maybe you could simply post your exact rotation here?

Weaken Mind *includes multi-targets

Turbulence

Mind Crush

TK Throw (procc only)

TK Wave (procc only)

Disturbance

Project *moving only

Furthermore have you actually tried to keep DoTs on two mobs with Balance? I have with Madness. Its very force intensive. The second you start having to using Consumption / NS - you've all ready started reducing your DPS.

For DoTs force management shouldn't be a problem running balance/madness. If' you're talking Toth and Zorn I'd worry if you were in a group where the dps was so low that you actually needed to keep DoTs on both bosses as that encounter is really just a gear check in HM and in story mode even easier. For Balance due to the longer DoTs you end up overlapping on them no matter what you do.

TK Wave > FiB. Not even close. FiB hits 3 targets. TK Wave hits 5. Furthermore Balance's force regeneration cannot support many uses of Forcequake.

There aren't really many occasions where you actually need to multi-spam force quake. On Kephess for example in a reasonably geared group the other dps, e.g. gunslinger/commando, uses their AoE on the mob packs at the same time so hard to imagine you'd ever need to do more than 1 FiB followed by 1 force quake per pack. Most of Kephess is single target, so by your logic hybrid/balance works out best for most of it.

I've had a CL Procc up after the first Walker Burn Phase, and been able to CL > Force Storm > CL the first adds. No Balance of Hybrid Sage will ever beat a TK Sage's AoE as the game stands right now.

There isn't that much AoE needed in any Ops, either EV, EC, or KP. That's why they are all a bit similar in a way, on three bosses you need to cast the occasional AoE, but there isn't a really intensive AoE encounter so not critical to have AoE build. Balance does just fine having to put up the odd force quake over a boss encounter.

I have to write that to be honest with you once you get to mainly BH/campaign level gear any Sage build will work out alright in EC.

For DoTs force management shouldn't be a problem running balance/madness. If' you're talking Toth and Zorn I'd worry if you were in a group where the dps was so low that you actually needed to keep DoTs on both bosses as that encounter is really just a gear check in HM and in story mode even easier. For Balance due to the longer DoTs you end up overlapping on them no matter what you do.

Single target DoTs are not a problem. Multi-target they are. Seeing as Toth and Zorn also cleanse themselves when they jump - this is even more force intensive on a Madness/Balance specc.

Its not about needing to DoT the other mob to help the group beat enrage. Its about maximizing your own DPS. Otherwise why are we having a discussion?

There aren't really many occasions where you actually need to multi-spam force quake. On Kephess for example in a reasonably geared group the other dps, e.g. gunslinger/commando, uses their AoE on the mob packs at the same time so hard to imagine you'd ever need to do more than 1 FiB followed by 1 force quake per pack. Most of Kephess is single target, so by your logic hybrid/balance works out best for most of it.

Gunslinger and Commando's major AoE abilities have 1 minute CDs and therefore they are of minimal help quite frankly. Furthermore not every raid group has a Gunslinger/Commando. We usually do of course (16m guild) but I've also done it on 8 with 2 Marauder and an Assassin. I was the ONLY one capable of putting down some AoE. If this is the case for any Sage or Sorc, then speccing TK/Lightning will be a benefit to the group. They are the kings of AoE.

Furthermore, most of Kephess is NOT single target. Immediately on the pull there is 3 mobs. Followed by a small burn phase (Balance is terrible burst damage). This is follow by an AoE phase, another burn phase and phase with 2 Mobs. Only after the last burn phase does the fight become single target.

There isn't that much AoE needed in any Ops, either EV, EC, or KP. That's why they are all a bit similar in a way, on three bosses you need to cast the occasional AoE, but there isn't a really intensive AoE encounter so not critical to have AoE build. Balance does just fine having to put up the odd force quake over a boss encounter.

 

I have to write that to be honest with you once you get to mainly BH/campaign level gear any Sage build will work out alright in EC

Its true AoE is only useful for 5/14 fights in game at the moment. That still doesn't mean its not a strength of a TK Sage.

I have full Campaign Gear and am mostly BiS. I know what each specc is capable of and how to play each specc competitively.

And I'm not saying any specc isn't viable. I'm just arguing TK/Lightning is the best. If you prefer another, by all means play it.

heh who says TK sages cannot excel in single target bosses... several times I pull aggro especially with mental alacrity and force potency switched on...

All 3 specs are viable, we are definitely not saying that Balance/Hybrid sucks. Or isn't viable for EC. Just that for EC, TKs have an advantage that Balance/Hybrids dont -> Much more efficient AOEs.

heh who says TK sages cannot excel in single target bosses... several times I pull aggro especially with mental alacrity and force potency switched on...

 

All 3 specs are viable, we are definitely not saying that Balance/Hybrid sucks. Or isn't viable for EC. Just that for EC, TKs have an advantage that Balance/Hybrids dont -> Much more efficient AOEs.

I still don't see where you base the 'much more efficient' aoe's part on. 3vs5 is hardly a big difference in packs of 10+, not to mention that other classes their aoe's are a lot more damaging in the same timespan as our force quake.

The fact that you manage to pull aggro from everyone else in the group might mean that your group/tank isn't doing their job properly.

Single target DoTs are not a problem. Multi-target they are. Seeing as Toth and Zorn also cleanse themselves when they jump - this is even more force intensive on a Madness/Balance specc.

Not certain what madness/balance build you're playing , but if you are gooing OOF casting DoTs in an Ops operation you're playing the spec wrong. As for Toth and Zorn many will end up casting DoTs on the targets as they are being exchanged by the Tanks after they jump...

Gunslinger and Commando's major AoE abilities have 1 minute CDs and therefore they are of minimal help quite frankly.

Comando and Gunslinger both have more than one AoE...

Furthermore, most of Kephess is NOT single target. Immediately on the pull there is 3 mobs. Followed by a small burn phase (Balance is terrible burst damage). This is follow by an AoE phase, another burn phase and phase with 2 Mobs. Only after the last burn phase does the fight become single target.

The majority of the fight is single target. The AoE phase isn't very intesive for Balance or Hybrid specs, they just cast Force quake.

And I'm not saying any specc isn't viable. I'm just arguing TK/Lightning is the best. If you prefer another, by all means play it.

I'd say about equal with hybrid or balance in Ops, in PvP it isn't viable.

I free for each of your latest responses you didn't read clearly what I wrote or didn't understand it. So its hard for me to make a response.

And TK is fine for PVP. Ironic that most people play Balance, but a Balance Sage is probably one of the easiest match ups for a TK Sage. To each his own.

But anyways, I've stated my opinions, you've stated yours. OP can do as he likes.

 

And TK is fine for PVP. Ironic that most people play Balance, but a Balance Sage is probably one of the easiest match ups for a TK Sage. To each his own.

If 4 of your rotation have significant activation times good luck getting all that down in PvP on a target without them moving or simply interrupting or cc ing you. In most competitive PvP matches I have seen lightning/TK sages mainly ending up spamming TK throw...that's why some people consider Powertech/Vanguard dps build OP, their rotations are instant cast. In PvP the Balance/Madness rotation is instant outside of TK Throw, so it means we can get most of it off without having to stand still for 10 seconds or so to complete a dps rotation cycle.

I still don't see where you base the 'much more efficient' aoe's part on. 3vs5 is hardly a big difference in packs of 10+, not to mention that other classes their aoe's are a lot more damaging in the same timespan as our force quake.

 

The fact that you manage to pull aggro from everyone else in the group might mean that your group/tank isn't doing their job properly.

it's completely up to your playstyle as purefin has more or less mentioned. You think it's not so efficient? Spec balance. You think it's more efficient? Spec TK.

If your group is comfortable with you using balance? go ahead. They're not? Spec TK.

And no, we do parse our damage and I do come out top or amongst the top in raids. So save your condescending tone for elsewhere. My tank knows when and how to pull aggro back, and communication makes it possible so that even when I pull aggro it will not become a problem. I'm just trying to show that TK spec is a very viable PvE spec.

I still prefer a 0/20/21 hybrid build, at least for PVP purposes. I feel it gives me the most utility... I use it in PVE as well all though I will admit I have not ran an operation yet just HM FP and it holds up fine there also.

I will agree it is an easy rotation though.....