The problem: Gunnery rotation is boring, and with 2.0 its going to get even more boring. We only NEED to fire 2-3 grav rounds every 15 seconds, in reality most gunnery rotation have grav round as 40-50% of their activations. This is boring, redundant, and the biggest reason why we have trouble in pvp. We have a lot more skills than just Full auto, grav round, HiB, and Demo round, but we have no reason to use any of them because those 4 are the most efficient. I propose a new rotation mechanic to involve our neglected skills, sticky grenade, explosive round (even with salvo it still sucks), and plasma grenade (which does have its uses but is very ammo intensive for how little damage it actually does).

 

The Solution: A new rotation element. Sticky grenade is now cleanse-able, but if it detonates then it leaves the target with 2 stacks of a new debuff called "Fractured Armor". Fractured Armor decreases the targets armor by 5% per stack, lasts 10 seconds, and increases the damage the target suffers from explosive round by x%, x being whatever percentage is needed to make explosive round hit harder than a grav round and hence make it useful. When a target with fractured armor is hit with explosive round, we get a new proc called energy rebound which decreases the cost and activation time of plasma grenade by 50% per proc.

 

To sum it up. Implementing this simple mechanic would expand our rotation from 4 basic moves to 7. It can be fine tuned to keep our dps more or less static, but it allows us significantly more mobility since this sub rotation can be done on the move. More importantly, it would make gunnery more challenging to master and more enjoyable to play. I would suggest that the mechanic should be made available to all 3 specs, but I use gunnery specifically in this example because it is most in need of a more active rotation. The devs mentioned that the reason they cut the stunned target moves is because of "skill bloat" and classes having too many useless skills. Well here is a chance to further fix that problem for commandos. I hope a dev actually takes the time to read and consider this.

When I first started reading this, I wasn't sure. I mean, I already use sticky grenade for some burst with my other abilities, and plasma grenade for AoE damage. So, I thought "we don't need encouragement to use those abilities, a commando/merc that uses them now is more skilled than those who don't". But the more I thought about it, the more appealing your idea sounded. I think it could go somewhere, but the only thing is, we might have TOO much armor penetration. Grav Round is going to apply its full armor debuff from one cast now, so mix that with the debuff from sticky grenade, that might just be too much. Plus, it takes away from the armor pen value that sticky grenade would bring. So, while its a nice idea, I think it could use some refinement.

stop it

Two things - First, devs rarely come here, you might want to throw it in the suggestion box:

 

http://www.swtor.com/community/forumdisplay.php?f=349

 

Second, and this is admittedly only from a PvP perspective - I kinda like sticky grenade the way it is. If it was cleansable, you wouldn't be able to use it on operatives as vanish prevention. I use sticky grenade plenty, as well as plasma grenade and stockstrike.

 

Explosive round has some use for Assault spec in 2.0 as it procs a burn, but I'd like to see something added to it for gunnery where it is still useless. I've suggested a few times that it proc an 'uninterruptability' buff for a few seconds.

My initial reaction to this idea was "No thanks". If I want a more complicated rotation, I'll jump on my Watchman Sentinel. I kind of like the soothingly smooth and streamlined Gunnery rotation and I work in Sticky, Stock, heck even Blitz when the appropriate situation presents itself, so I'm not looking for complexity for its own sake.

 

But then you mentioned the mobility issue. I play little to no PvP, so being a stationary PvE turret is less problematic than for Warzoners, but I could absolutely see the value of a 2nd viable "mobile rotation." When I want to stand there and burn down the target, I can do so normally, but when I need/want to be hustling my butt to or from somewhere, I could still be pumping out better dps than Sticky-Hammer. It's worth consideration.

Just cut the cost of Plasma Grenade in half. It does fine damage, but it's way too expensive >_< I only use it during burst phases and when RP is off cooldown =/

Just cut the cost of Plasma Grenade in half. It does fine damage, but it's way too expensive >_< I only use it during burst phases and when RP is off cooldown =/

 

They would give us more leeway if our energy zone was at 39%. It means if we use it at 93% energy, or 7% heat, we lose heat regen for the next tick. The ability should not cost 33 heat when we only have a 39 heat zone soft spot. They should however increase our soft spot to 49 heat, or 51 energy.

If any rotation is boring, it's Madness Sorcerer (and mirror). Death field, apply DoTs, spam force lightning until DoTs are gone/near gone and repeat. Yawn.

First, devs rarely come here, you might want to throw it in the suggestion box:

 

The devs don't post in the Class forums (afaik, the only thread in the Class forums with a dev response was actually a PTS thread that was moved to the class forums to prevent it from being unavailable when the PTS forums were closed), but they most definitely read them. My guess is that there is a specific dictate from the community mods that says they're not allowed to post in the Class forums (likely to prevent players from getting the impression of dev favoritism to one class/AC/faction than the other due to where they tend to post), but it's not entirely appropriate to say that the devs simply "rarely come here".

 

Most of the changes that actually take place were originally posted in the specific class forums, and I've seen almost nothing from the Suggestion Box get implemented (especially if it's specific to a single AC rather than the game as a whole) so, if anything, the Suggestion Box is honestly a worse place to put an idea than the relevant class forum. At least in the relevant class forum, you at least know it's not going to be drowned out by thousands of completely unrelated ideas and that the audience that you reach is at least going to be primed concerning the problems of the class in question already.

Well a couple of things in response to your guys responses.

 

-The reason I think we need this mechanic is not just because our rotation is boring, but because its immobile. We can't do squat when we have to run and many PVE fights require mobility. Sure there are ways around it but in 2.0 our dps did not go up as far as some of the melee and not even close to gunslingers, so we need the advantage of having better mobility.

 

-The argument that sorc's have a boring rotation doesn't really say why we should or should not consider adding this mechanism.

 

-Cleansing the sticky grenade could be a problem in pvp, so how about being able to cleanse the fractured armor debuff? I'm not a fan of mechanisms with no counter (cough, smash monkeys, cough) so simply having this be an unavoidable hit is not something I would want.

 

-As far as excessive armor penetration is concerned, that is intentional. You don't HAVE to use the fractured armor debuff immediately. If you're clever about it and can spare the ammo, it could add to your HiB/Demo burst. For example, a burst rotation might look like (grav, sticky, grav, grav, demo, HIB, explosive round, plasma). That would be exactly 10 seconds, and would leave you severely out of ammo, but having an extra 20% armor pen on your two biggest hits could be worth it sometimes. Basically having the fractured armor debuff stack with grav round but get used up by explosive round gives it dual functionality depending on what you want to do with it.

 

-Kitru, I appreciate the support for me posting but i'm curious what you think of the mechanism itself, care to elaborate?

Edited April 6, 2013 by wishihadaname

-Kitru, I appreciate the support for me posting but i'm curious what you think of the mechanism itself, care to elaborate?

 

One of the first things is that you're confusing armor penetration with armor reduction. If the debuff you're recommending decreased armor, it would be functionally worthless because the game is coded to only factor in the largest armor reduction debuff on the target at one time and Commandos already have an armor reduction ability in the form of Grav Round itself. If you meant it as armor penetration, then it has some merit (though keep in mind that Gunnery Commandos already have a *lot* of arpen so adding more actually makes less comparatively effective than the previous quantities of arpen provided).

 

Secondly, what you're recommending would actually end up being a net loss in damage dealt for Gunnery Commandos unless the abilities you're recommending are added to Curtain of Fire. The *reason* Gunnery spams GR so much is because it's the only ability the spec uses (Charged Rounds can also proc CoF but CR does less damage for the same cost so there isn't really much point) that can activate proc it. If you want to add in abilities that replace some of the GRs in the spec, you need to have said abilities apply to CoF as well.

 

Thirdly, assuming that the problem you identified (functionally required overuse of Grav Round creating a boring rotation overall) *is* a problem (I vacillate somewhat on whether I agree), I don't think the best solution is a new pair of nested procs (Sticky to allow useful Explosive to allow useful Plasma), mainly because i feel that it it would draw too much away from the mainstay of the spec (GR to allow Full Auto and GR to allow Demo Round) without really adding anything except redundant complexity. Complexity should be *useful*, not arbitrary (hell, if the effects you spoke of were added, I'm reasonably confident that most people would end up ignoring them and just continue doing their thing as they do now).

 

If I were to rework your idea, I would do 2 completely different things.

 

The first is more focused around improving AoE while making the spec a bit more interesting: when you hit a target affected by Sticky Grenade with Demo Round, the Demo Round damage is applied to up to 4 additional targets within 4m of the original target (i.e. Demo Round on a Sticky Grenade lets Demo Round cleave). Conversely, for additional utility, it could be reworked such that Grav Round gets to cleave when it hits a target affected by Sticky Grenade (allowing you to cleave the damage and debuff to more targets). It's not really *adding* anything to the spec in overt complexity while making the spec a bit more interesting by requiring some more precise timing to get greater effect in AoE situations.

 

The second would be to include some new effect wherein some attack (or all attacks with a lower proc rate) procs a reduction in the CD of Demo Round or HiB (by 1 or 1.5 seconds per proc; possibly make it based off of crits with a limit of 1 per 1.5 seconds). The point of this would be to decrease the amount of GR spam that occurs while filling it with an attack that is already used (and helps with casting on the run since DR and HiB are instant); it helps that it also creates complexity in the form of a variable CD, which means players have to pay more attention to it. Of course, in order to balance this out since more DR use would translate into more damage, the damage would need to be played around with a bit, but that's not all that hard considering it just requires reanalyzing it from the new use rate (assuming that said buff actually translates into a damage buff that's too large; it might actually be small enough to still be justifiably balanced).

When Kitru elaborates, he elaborates

 

Also, adding on to what Kitru said: If the cleave does become a reality, give it that "doesn't hit sleeping/lifted targets" clause to make it easier on ops and (crossed fingers) RWZ if we're viable.

 

I would like to see the CD reduction proc on DR more. It would provide for a higher DPS and more interesting rotation to be sure. Now the only key ability we have without CD reduction is HIB.

Edited April 7, 2013 by gluefoot

Also, adding on to what Kitru said: If the cleave does become a reality, give it that "doesn't hit sleeping/lifted targets" clause to make it easier on ops and (crossed fingers) RWZ if we're viable.

 

Thus far, the only "safe AoEs" belong to tanks specifically to allow them to keep aggro on multiple targets while CCd targets are nearby and not even all of their AoEs are safe (it's restricted to a single AoE effect each). Also, making the cleave safe would be kind of redundant: to cleave, you must first have Sticky Grenade on the target and Sticky Grenade is an AoE that *isn't* safe. So, even if the cleave *were* made safe, it still wouldn't have the intended effect because, 3 seconds after you hit the target with Sticky Grenade, you'd still be breaking any nearby CC anyways.

 

I would like to see the CD reduction proc on DR more. It would provide for a higher DPS and more interesting rotation to be sure. Now the only key ability we have without CD reduction is HIB.

 

Optimally (from a design standpoint), I'd like to see CD reductions on both of them (I'm not fond of attack CDs longer than 12 seconds and, even then, 12 feels kind of long to me; my personal feeling concerning CDs is that there is something of a "dead zone" for CDs between 12 and 45 seconds: in that range, it doesn't see use because it's down too long to be a "short" CD but not long enough to be a "long" CD, though it might just be me), but that would be predicated upon the AC needing substantial buffs overall. Keep in mind, you still need to use GR 3 times in between HBs (for Charged Barrel stacks) so there can't be *too much* CD reduction on it or else it would come off CD before you've had the chance to use HiB. One solution to this could be creating a talent attached to Charged Barrel (or addendum to a current talent) that finishes the CD on HiB when you hit a target with Grav Round while you already have 5 stacks of Charged Barrel.

 

Keep in mind, for all of this, the only "necessity" we can ascertain is qualitative and questionable: unless you can prove that Commandos have a rotation that is "too boring" *and* are somehow impeded by it (a hard sell at best), there's not really much you can do. If Commando damage was low, it would be an easier sell, but it would still have to be the "better" option (i.e. worth the extra effort) than just tweaking the damage numbers.

The problem: Gunnery rotation is boring, and with 2.0 its going to get even more boring. We only NEED to fire 2-3 grav rounds every 15 seconds

 

this is exactly how it is on live. the only difference is in startup time.

sustained dps rotations will be the exact same as they are now.

 

Charged Rounds can also proc CoF but CR does less damage for the same cost so there isn't really much point

 

charged bolts actually does more damage than grav round.

 

but it is now and will only ever be used as a replacement for GR during the 4s of lockout when it's been interrupted

even after 2.0 (or especially, as they won't ever share the same anymore for full builds)

charged bolts actually does more damage than grav round.

 

but it is now and will only ever be used as a replacement for GR during the 4s of lockout when it's been interrupted

even after 2.0 (or especially, as they won't ever share the same anymore for full builds)

 

It's been a while since my Commando was Gunnery (and, even then, I only had her like that for all of 2 hours), but I was pretty sure that Grav Round did more damage (it might've been because it was a Tech attack and, as such, couldn't miss and I was factoring in the accuracy discrepancy as part of the damage). I find it strange that CB would deal more damage than GR though considering that GR is, nominally, an upgraded version, though.

It's been a while since my Commando was Gunnery (and, even then, I only had her like that for all of 2 hours), but I was pretty sure that Grav Round did more damage (it might've been because it was a Tech attack and, as such, couldn't miss and I was factoring in the accuracy discrepancy as part of the damage). I find it strange that CB would deal more damage than GR though considering that GR is, nominally, an upgraded version, though.

 

i think the white damage is most probably why, but there's also a big misconception from a lot of people who main gunnery commandos who seem to think that grav round does more damage.

of course things will change a bit in 2.0 with grav round's min/max damage is being lowered/raised and the changes to shield working on all kinetic/energy attacks.

 

 

 

as an aside, i have always wished that the grav round talent was actually a grav vortex buff that applied to charged bolts instead of a whole new skill. that would have given a lot of interesting hybrid build applications, but bioware seem to be pretty against them.

plus it would have normalized the damage of the attack across assault and gunnery.

 

 

 

as another aside, i do recall from beta that barrage was a new attack instead of a buff to full auto (that shared a cooldown with full auto). really glad they changed that though lol.

they eventually fixed assault plastique and sticky grenade not sharing a cooldown. i can't imagine if barrage had made it to live as an extra attack. would they have eventually removed the shared cooldown and we'd end up with two channeled attacks? i can't really imagine it tbh, but then again, we get charged bolts and grav round and sticky grenade and assault plastique.

 

it seems like a weird tangent, but maybe having the extra channel would have removed the monotony of gunnery's rotation.

 

Also, adding on to what Kitru said: If the cleave does become a reality, give it that "doesn't hit sleeping/lifted targets" clause to make it easier on ops and (crossed fingers) RWZ if we're viable.

 

 

This could be cool, except you have to use sticky grenade to use it so it would kinda be moot

The reason I posted the original idea was because in 2.0 there is a gap between the dps classes and its more than what's on live. Melee does more than ranged, and among the ranged engineering snipers are a good ways ahead of everyone else. To compensate for our lower max damage and burst, I thought that armor negation and mobility would be nice. I like Kitrus idea about cleaving but not about the CD reductions. I like the 15s "clips" of gunneries rotation. Having it be too proc based would raise our dps too much and make the rotation too unpredictable. The reason why a mobile sub-rotation is better is because it allows us to reposition without losing dps while also offering better aoe damage.

 

Also: totally unrelated but felt I'de add that it would be nice to be able to use more weapon types. Rifles at least. Would be awesome is we could get a passive skill at lvl10 to boost barrel ratings on rifles to match cannons. Dual pistols or snipers would also be cool but those would require new animations. We would also need to be able to use hail of bolts and charged bolts with these weapons but that seems like a minor change.

Edited April 8, 2013 by wishihadaname

In 2.0, the set of abilities you will use will be:

 

• Grav Round (3 per HiB)
  
• High Impact Bolt (on cooldown)
  
• Demo Round (on cooldown)
  
• Full Auto (on cooldown)
  
• Charged Bolts (filler ability once you've used 3 Grav Rounds)
  
• Electro Net (on cooldown)
  
• Mortar Salvo (on cooldown)
  
• Plasma Grenade (when RPC is up)
  
• Hammer Shot (because, yeah, stupid set bonus change)
  

 

That's pretty decent, and a far cry from the four button rotation you cited as unappealing.

 

It's been a while since my Commando was Gunnery (and, even then, I only had her like that for all of 2 hours), but I was pretty sure that Grav Round did more damage (it might've been because it was a Tech attack and, as such, couldn't miss and I was factoring in the accuracy discrepancy as part of the damage). I find it strange that CB would deal more damage than GR though considering that GR is, nominally, an upgraded version, though.

 

CB does indeed do more damage than GR (by about 8%, IIRC), assuming 100% ranged accuracy. The only problem is that it doesn't apply the armor debuff (not an issue in 2.0) and it doesn't stack Charged Barrel. Once you have 5 stacks of Charged Barrel though, there's no reason not to use Charged Bolts instead of Grav Round since the proc rate for Full Auto is identical.

Edited April 8, 2013 by KeyboardNinja

CB does indeed do more damage than GR (by about 8%, IIRC), assuming 100% ranged accuracy. The only problem is that it doesn't apply the armor debuff (not an issue in 2.0) and it doesn't stack Charged Barrel. Once you have 5 stacks of Charged Barrel though, there's no reason not to use Charged Bolts instead of Grav Round since the proc rate for Full Auto is identical.

 

Knowing that, I like my idea of Grav Round, when you have 5 stacks of Charged Barrel, resetting the CD on HiB since it would give you a reason to continue using GR when you have all of the stacks (and would speed up HiB use, which means sitting around with 5 stacks of Charged Barrel and doing nothing with them for ~10 seconds).

Knowing that, I like my idea of Grav Round, when you have 5 stacks of Charged Barrel, resetting the CD on HiB since it would give you a reason to continue using GR when you have all of the stacks (and would speed up HiB use, which means sitting around with 5 stacks of Charged Barrel and doing nothing with them for ~10 seconds).

 

I like this idea too. Pre-2.0, I would have raised the objection that this desynchronizes the CD of HiB and Demo Round, which is undesirable for ammo management reasons. However, HiB is no longer ammo positive, so this isn't really a concern.