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What is wrong with you, Garza?


Loadsamonie

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Always trying to get me to do Dark Side options, often even to the disapproval or Jorgan. Murdering innocent victims of cyborg implants, weaponized samples of rakghoul disease...

 

You're supposed to care about human lives and doing the right thing, not "OMG VICTORY FOR THE REPUBLIC AT ALL COSTS!"

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Garza is actually evil. I don't want to spoil it for you, but wait until after you see the belsavis storyline for the true reality of how amoral she is and how corrupt the republic is. The original havoc squad was right, the republic ain't worth fighting for let alone dieing for. Frankly its not worth going to the toilet for and using its constitution as toliet paper. If only the sith empire wasn't in the hands of a bunch of anarchist self obesseed warlords huh?
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I wouldn't mind serving the Empire if they actually valued freedom and democracy instead of militaristic dictatorship and ruling everything with an iron fist.

 

I guess the word that I'd use to describe Garza is...ruthless. But damn, seems like she's really corrupt at times. Always scorning me for doing the right thing. I'm not just some brainless soldier who follows orders without question. That's not what a Trooper is in my eyes. I don't just "shoot first and aim later." Like the Jedi, I have standards. I have principles that I will not violate.

Edited by Loadsamonie
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To understand garza think "corrupt empire builder, willing to use and throw away "her" assets." If you understand she sees you as a useful but ultimately disposable tool, one to be got rid of when you know too much or become a threat, you'll have her down.

 

One reason I guess why I find her so offensive is her attitude often seems to be reflected in the people who reach high ranks in real world militaries. I always believed that if I was being asked to give my life for my country it was on the people asking me to make that sacrifice that it was in fact a nessercary sacrifice and not just for their personnal gain. That there was no other way. Sadly Garzas corruptness makes the idea of dying for the republic a sad practical joke. Said joke being on your trooper :(

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Yes Garza playing a LS Trooper i despised Garza a lot,specially when i was honest with people who were supposed to help me"OMG you dare tell them the truth?rather than be lying scoundrel?"Also the Sith Empire stands for order and disciplines,the problem is most Sith or Moffs for that matter go insane with power and are either complete idiots or the steryotype evil of"let's kick puppies"However some are honorable,a prime example of a good Sith for leadership would be Darth Marr.
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However some are honorable,a prime example of a good Sith for leadership would be Darth Marr.

CAVEAT LECTOR: I''m talking about Marr before the beginning of KotFE.

 

I would humbly suggest that there is no measure by which Darth Marr would meet most people's concept of "good", except in the context of "effective" and the like.

 

Marr is effective, and he has a long-term view of what needs to be done for the benefit of the Empire. He gained position and power to further that aim, but there is no doubt that his methods are evil. The events at the end of Rishi and during the story on Yavin 4 show that to perfection.

 

In essence, Darth Marr is working to further the aims of the Empire, while most Sith (and a distressing number of highly-placed Republic figures including two whose names we shall not mention but whose initials might be Supreme Chancellor Saresh or General Garza) are working to further their own aims.

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Garza is a general with a job to do. No moral compass what so ever. I can bet she didn't want to sign Treaty of Coruscant.

 

This. She's basically amoral when it comes to getting the job done. Risks and unknowns can cause problems later. Eliminate them now so they can't bite the Republic in the *** later. If something is a weapon that can be used against the enemy then she's going to damned well use it, regardless of how it was developed or the possible moral ramifications. She's got a job to do and you're either with her or you're in the way. It may seem callous but the benefit is she's a big believer in, "this can't be changed, so let's moved on."

 

Besides, by the time Corellia rolls around she basically knows she can't control the Trooper anymore. She gives an order and if the Trooper says, "No, I want to do it this way," she's basically like, "Fiiiine. Just get it done."

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Garza is a general with a job to do. No moral compass what so ever. I can bet she didn't want to sign Treaty of Coruscant.

this, shes a general and innocents get hurt, get over it its war you do everything to win. :) dont like it dont pick dark side but i see nothing wrong with her as she fit my trooper quite well doing everything for the republic, try having mx as your companion and you will gain a lot of influence if you pick the republic options even if its dark side. (on a side note i played a neutral runthough not going for every evil option mainly picking for the republic and so what if you shoot the guy and lie a bit you win the war) :)

 

rip just realised the guy before me said the same thing. :/

Edited by dealolafin
messed up
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CAVEAT LECTOR: I''m talking about Marr before the beginning of KotFE.

 

I would humbly suggest that there is no measure by which Darth Marr would meet most people's concept of "good", except in the context of "effective" and the like.

 

Marr is effective, and he has a long-term view of what needs to be done for the benefit of the Empire. He gained position and power to further that aim, but there is no doubt that his methods are evil. The events at the end of Rishi and during the story on Yavin 4 show that to perfection.

 

In essence, Darth Marr is working to further the aims of the Empire, while most Sith (and a distressing number of highly-placed Republic figures including two whose names we shall not mention but whose initials might be Supreme Chancellor Saresh or General Garza) are working to further their own aims.

That's my idea of a good Sith,thanks for putting in better words than i did.

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One reason I guess why I find her so offensive is her attitude often seems to be reflected in the people who reach high ranks in real world militaries. I always believed that if I was being asked to give my life for my country it was on the people asking me to make that sacrifice that it was in fact a nessercary sacrifice and not just for their personnal gain. That there was no other way. Sadly Garzas corruptness makes the idea of dying for the republic a sad practical joke. Said joke being on your trooper :(

 

In the real world, if the u.s military played nice with others there would be no 50 states or America for that matter.

Edited by cool-dude
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In the real world, if the u.s military played nice with others there would be no 50 states or America for that matter.

 

Not sure if you understood what I was saying? in the real world the us military doesn't play nice to its ENEMIES. key word here: ENEMIES. You don't have (or certainly shouldn't) individual generals empire building and pursuing personal power by sending the men under them onto unneeded suicide missions, dirty black op missions then cutting them loose afterwards and sending them to court martial so they get life in prison or to dangerous behind the lines missions then canceling their extract and leaving them to die. (all of which Garza does).

 

The US military might not be a perfect institution, but it isn't corrupt! I reject totally the idea that "if the usa military wasn't corrupt and didnt throw away the lives of the men and women who serve in it for no reason beyond poltical expediency and to advance the power of the generals calling the shots, there would be no 50 states or America for that matter". You can value the lives of the people who serve in your armed forces and STILL defend freedom. Its not an either or.

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Not sure if you understood what I was saying? in the real world the us military doesn't play nice to its ENEMIES. key word here: ENEMIES. You don't have (or certainly shouldn't) individual generals empire building and pursuing personal power by sending the men under them onto unneeded suicide missions, dirty black op missions then cutting them loose afterwards and sending them to court martial so they get life in prison or to dangerous behind the lines missions then canceling their extract and leaving them to die. (all of which Garza does).

 

The US military might not be a perfect institution, but it isn't corrupt! I reject totally the idea that "if the usa military wasn't corrupt and didnt throw away the lives of the men and women who serve in it for no reason beyond poltical expediency and to advance the power of the generals calling the shots, there would be no 50 states or America for that matter". You can value the lives of the people who serve in your armed forces and STILL defend freedom. Its not an either or.

 

Problem is the U.S. military is corrupt. Not necessarily on an individual basis but because it serves a corrupt system. By defending that corrupt, broken, and abused system the military becomes corrupt. Not in the sense we see demonstrated by Garza, but in that it is serving evil for the "right" reasons.

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  • 2 weeks later...

On a recent playthrough of the Trooper story during Chapter 3, I:

 

sacrificed the Republic POWs to save Jaxo, with the justification that Rakton had basically already killed them anyway by setting his plan into motion, but Jaxo, who infiltrated the base, didn't know that was part of the deal.

 

 

It was a flimsy excuse and I almost started to feel guilty about it (not too much though; the Trooper story has so many choices like that one that I end up kinda desensitized). But then, Garza told me "You made the wrong call." And frankly, if there's one thing I've learned during the Trooper story, it's that whenever I wonder if I've done the morally upright thing to do, I can always count on Garza to berate me for it, and therefore, I made the best possible choice after all.

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She isn't deserving of the title "general" IMO, but I don't think most real generals in the heat of wartime are much better, in terms of making "humane" choices.

 

Thing about Garza is she is the product of ultimate power, brutal enemies, and no oversight. She leads a black ops group, so of course she's going to do shady stuff. She's up against some of the worst the galaxy has to offer, so of course she's going to be every bit as brutal as they are to ensure the Republic stands a chance against them. And because she has no real oversight (when in doubt, sweep things under the political rug) she has no strong motivation not to do whatever the heck she wants.

 

Make no mistake. I hate her and her callous attitude goes against everything I stand for. But her character makes sense and I can kind of understand why the person in her role is the person that she is. It would be a bit weird if she was a beacon of light, given the circumstances. She is basically the embodiment of "for the greater good"; I do think she truly believes in the values of the Republic and the Jedi, but she's also willing to sacrifice anyone and anything to ensure that the Republic wins. The lives destroyed and abandoned are simply casualties of war to her. It's all about coming out on top when the smoke clears.

 

And I think SWTOR did right by writing her as she is because she embodies one of the harsh realities of war; that there is no such thing as killing each other en masse and being pleasant and good about it. When both parties are committed, morality goes out the window and it becomes a game of winning with the average person as the victim.

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Problem is the U.S. military is corrupt. Not necessarily on an individual basis but because it serves a corrupt system. By defending that corrupt, broken, and abused system the military becomes corrupt. Not in the sense we see demonstrated by Garza, but in that it is serving evil for the "right" reasons.
The Jem'Hadar, and "the order of things"...
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Becouse she is military woman, and extremely competent at that. Some wars don't have place for morality - only for efficiency. And think about it some more:

 

What's inherently wrong with rakghoul plague? It's a weapon, and damn effective at that. It allows to wage war deep in enemy territory without losing soldiers. How many soldiers can be saved by deploying something like that? How many imperials will die from it, again, reducing the pressure on republic soldiers? it will leave infected planet pretty much permanently crippled. The only downside is how hard it is to clean up after it, but if you never intend to capture said planet yourself - it's win-win scenario.

 

Or how many of said republic soldiers will die if Bastion remains in imperial hands? How much weaker Republic will get in the result, how many more worlds will be lost and how many people will die to sith on those worlds? Isn't it better to sacrifice small bunch of insignificant civilians right now to ensure much bigger losses never happen?

 

As for Jaxo situation, it was pure math. Save 1 soldier, of few dozens. And that 1 soldier is pathetic little ***** crying for her life. It actually was one of the few light-sided choices I made nearly instantly for my trooper.

 

She does good for the Republic. Much more than any goody-two-shues senator or even most of jedi do. Her only **** up was the Eclipse squad, and even that had potential of huge reward in it.

 

Edit: What was that phrase on Voss you can tell to senator? "War is a killing contest, And I'm simply the best at it"?

Edited by Frenesi
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Becouse she is military woman, and extremely competent at that. Some wars don't have place for morality - only for efficiency. And think about it some more:

 

What's inherently wrong with rakghoul plague? It's a weapon, and damn effective at that. It allows to wage war deep in enemy territory without losing soldiers. How many soldiers can be saved by deploying something like that? How many imperials will die from it, again, reducing the pressure on republic soldiers? it will leave infected planet pretty much permanently crippled. The only downside is how hard it is to clean up after it, but if you never intend to capture said planet yourself - it's win-win scenario.

 

Or how many of said republic soldiers will die if Bastion remains in imperial hands? How much weaker Republic will get in the result, how many more worlds will be lost and how many people will die to sith on those worlds? Isn't it better to sacrifice small bunch of insignificant civilians right now to ensure much bigger losses never happen?

 

As for Jaxo situation, it was pure math. Save 1 soldier, of few dozens. And that 1 soldier is pathetic little ***** crying for her life. It actually was one of the few light-sided choices I made nearly instantly for my trooper.

 

She does good for the Republic. Much more than any goody-two-shues senator or even most of jedi do. Her only **** up was the Eclipse squad, and even that had potential of huge reward in it.

 

Edit: What was that phrase on Voss you can tell to senator? "War is a killing contest, And I'm simply the best at it"?

 

A couple reasons:

 

1. You use something like the rackghoul plague, it opens the gate for the opponent to do so as well. War is messy as it, but if you have both sides using biological weapons that are incredibly hard to control and are easy to spread, at the end of the day you end up with a barren galaxy with nothing living except rackghouls. There is a reason that after WW1 basically all countries agreed to not use gas anymore, because the results were too horrific to handle. Not to mention the loss of civilian casualties that are just trying to live their lives they best they can.

 

Think of all the FPs and quests (heck there is an entire event surrounding the rackghoul plague), so its not something easy to handle; and that is with both sides actively trying to supress it. What would happen if both sides started unleashing the plague on the galaxy?

 

2. It's not quite as simple as her being some random soldier. Depending on how you select things if you are a male, you can start a relationship with Jaxo, and from my perspective, that relationship was far better done than the one with Elara (which was just kind of awkward). So now it becomes a matter of not picking based on value to the Republic (which keep in mind, Jaxo had never been captured, and all these soldiers had, so whats to say they won't turn around and get captured again right away anyway?) but now you have to determine if you are willing to sacrifice your love interest for a bunch of strangers.

 

Garza would make a good Sith, but I'm not sure that is a sterling recommendation when that is what the Republic is fighting against.

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I feel that sith would use plague regardless of Republic actions. It's actually very weird that they never try it in any of the storylines (outside of Needles obviously).

 

As for Jaxo - well, I played femTrooper. Still, chosing second option in "save many people or the single one you love" in such situations is the single most dumb and egoistic decision you can make (hi there Matrix). Kinda romantic, but dumb as ****. There's a reason it's marked as darkside.

 

Just to clarify - that was purely to answer "why Garza scolds me for saving Jaxo". Becouse of math.

Edited by Frenesi
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Just to clarify - that was purely to answer "why Garza scolds me for saving Jaxo". Becouse of math.

Oh, I get why. It was more that I did it with a feeble excuse, as mentioned, and I knew it was feeble, but I wanted to see how it played out the other way, so I still did it. And then when Garza reacted, I was so "conditioned" by the story to think "Garza's a horrible person who hates my efforts to play superhero" that I just sort of reflexively felt like I'd done the "right" thing anyway.

 

Basically, I was desensitized to her criticism so hard that it actually ended up going in reverse. Even if it's one of the few cases where she's probably right, for the most part.

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I feel that sith would use plague regardless of Republic actions. It's actually very weird that they never try it in any of the storylines (outside of Needles obviously).

 

As for Jaxo - well, I played femTrooper. Still, chosing second option in "save many people or the single one you love" in such situations is the single most dumb and egoistic decision you can make (hi there Matrix). Kinda romantic, but dumb as ****. There's a reason it's marked as darkside.

 

Just to clarify - that was purely to answer "why Garza scolds me for saving Jaxo". Becouse of math.

 

I get what your saying, it is a darkside choice to be sure, but its the one darkside choice I made as my trooper, I'll rush head long into danger, jump on the grenade to same my squad, but how many times have you been on a rescue mission to save one person, your entire time could have died in the process. Personally I'd risk my life to save my wife and children, I'd surely risk a strangers life to save my wife and children, it would take a lot, massive nuclear devastation, for my wife and children to not be priority number 1 for survival.

 

Jaxo may not be real but to my character she was peace in a galaxy of war, she was a good soldier sent to die, she deserved being saved, you want the POWs saved what the hell was the rest of my team doing, or perhaps you shouldn't have alienated the original havoc squad, and then we would have had enough troops to steam role these missions.

 

you being Garza not you personally :p

Edited by TBDNicodemus
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