... and boy, I need another year before I start replaying it again.

 

Warning: long read ahead. If you don't have the time nor will to read the entire review, please look for the summaries of each story instalment, they are bolded in red.

 

I've frequently been saying that I didn't want to touch KotFE and KotET anymore, simply because I find it to be a horrible continuation of the main SWTOR storyline. Yet there have been frequent discussions about the Eternal Alliance, the expansions and the upcoming story update here which made me think: maybe KotFE and KotET weren't as bad as I thought, because there seemed to be people who could enjoy it.

 

Thus, I decided to do a little experiment. I would replay KotFE and KotET on a new character, before that replaying the entire main story of SWTOR to see how well it fit with the last two expansions. I decided to roll a Jedi Knight, because that class story is often seen as KOTOR 3 and focuses the most on the Sith Emperor.

 

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

Naturally, the class story, Rise of the Hutt Cartel, Shadow of Revan and Rise of the Emperor were all epic. The story was amazing, everything seemed like a logical continuation of the previous story and I even shed a tear when Ziost was destroyed (which hadn't happened since the first time I played it). In other words, I was invested in the story and it managed to invoke emotions within me. But this wasn't the first time I played it, it was the upteenth time, and still it made me feel. It made me care for the story even though I knew it by heart.

 

My grade for the Jedi Knight class story: 8/10

 

My grade for RotHC: 7.5/10

 

My grade for SoR: 7.8/10

 

My grade for the Ziost arc: 9/10

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Enter KotFE...

 

The first two chapters still made me feel like the previous story content had. The Star Wars/SWTOR feel was still prevalent throughout The Hunt and Dream of Empire. They seemed like a logical continuation of the story and even Zakuul seemed intriguing at this point. When I played it the first time all those years back I was convinced we would have a three-way war, which would have been incredibly interesting. But why were these 2 Chapters still enjoyable to me? Because the story was still in touch with the Empire vs Republic narrative, it was still in touch with everything that I had previously done on my Jedi Knight. She was still part of the Republic and her original faction was still one of the main focus points of the story.

 

Chapter 3 was still enjoyable albeit I felt my care and investment in the story started dwindling. While in previous story content I watched the cutscenes invested and interested for the upteenth time, at this point I noticed I started looking at my phone more frequently during the dialogue scenes, because I already knew Lana would do this or that and Koth protest and so forth.

 

Chapters 4 and 5 saw my interest and investment in the story steadily declining. The only bits that were interesting were Lana telling my character what had happened to the Republic and Empire and Senya's introduction (because Senya is a really interesting character in my opinion). During these 2 chapters I started feeling regret I had decided to play KotFE and KotET on this toon, because after the Ziost arc I had a brief moment where I had considered sticking to my commitment of not playing anything that has to do with KotFE and KotET.

 

Then from Chapter 6 to 12 I fully came to regret my choice to replay KotFE and KotET. Asylum in Chapter 6 was just utterly boring, the only interesting bit being Senya's part of the story. Chapter 7's start with Senya telling her history with Valkorion flared up a brief moment of investment and care for the story within me, but that quickly went back to zero as the chapter progressed. Chapter 8 was just one giant chore, I had to continuously force myself to continue and just wanted to get through it as soon as possible. I even started spacebarring during some of the cutscenes which I previously promised myself not to do, so as to the get the full story. Chapter 9, I don't want to talk about it, the only thing I'll say is this: the story team made a giant mistake by introducing the Alliance here, as we should have been returning to rally our original faction against Zakuul at this point. Chapter 10 I continued spacebarring through part of the cutscenes because I simply did not care one bit about what Kaliyo had to say. I think my interest and investment in the story went below zero here. Chapter 11 wasn't too different, the only positive thing about it was that it was a short one.

 

Finally Chapter 12, back in the day when the chapters were being released still I was looking forward to this one a lot. It turned out to be an enormous disappointment back then and now it wasn't any different. I love Valkorion, albeit he is not a good continuation of Vitiate as a villain, so the first bit was intriguing and ominous. But the force feeding of the "grow beyond Light and Dark" is just utterly annoying. To me all of that is just plain BS, to put it bluntly, but that's an entirely different discussion. Enter Satele and Marr... that made me gag. Both characters were completely ruined here, truly, I'd almost say it was scandalous the way they were treated. Especially the way how Marr was changed is just sad, I adored the character before KotFE but Chapter 12 just destroyed him. If this is how Marr is to be from now on I truly hope I never see him again in the story. The continued "the Force is more than Light or Dark" force feeding gave my eyes a good exercise because I kept rolling them a lot and every single dialogue option I got that allowed me to say "nope, I won't go along with you" or "I remain true to the Jedi teachings" I chose, because I refuse to go along with the "more than Light and Dark" BS.

 

Chapter 13 is just one giant questionmark for me. Maybe the story would work for a Smuggler or Bounty Hunter, but why the heck would my Jedi Knight, devout believer in the Jedi Code and fervent supporter of the Galactic Republic and it's laws, go on a heist? Especially during a crisis that may or may not sound the end of her opposition against Zakuul? The entire chapter was just one giant "why?" for me, albeit the dialogues did have me smile and smirk sometimes.

 

Chapter 14 was a moment of redemption. We get to see the Mandalorians in action and I actually felt some small connection to the pre-KotFE things I did. The story was interesting and had me feeling some investment into it. I wish there had been more connections with the Republic and Empire, but overall I have no complaints about this chapter.

 

Chapter 15 was along the lines of 14 but a little less interest and investment. The return of the Empire and Republic into the story was a huge relief, because one of my biggest critiques of KotFE is that it moved away from the key elements that made SWTOR so interesting: the Galactic Republic and Sith Empire.

 

Chapter 16, I don't have any major complaints about it but there's not much good to say about it either. Senya's involvement and the dynamic with her children was interesting, especially after Arcann was defeated and Senya went to save him. That was a good bit. One major critique that I have of KotFE and KotET that's especially visible in this chapter is that the Eternal Fleet is just a ridiculous and horrible story concept. It's just abysmal the way how OP it is.

 

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

Summary of KotFE: Nope. The story just doesn't work in my opinion. It starts off interesting but becomes horribly boring very soon. There are a handful of interesting bits like Senya or Valkorion, but it just doesn't compensate to make the entirety enjoyable. KotFE is not a logical continuation of the main SWTOR story and actually proceeds to ruin the main SWTOR narrative by completely disregarding anything that you did pre-KotFE and breaking with what made the game's story interesting and captivating in the first place: the Jedi and the Sith, the Galactic Republic and Sith Empire. The fact that the story detaches itself from them was one giant mistake, because it does not make the story better, it just makes it feel outlandish and completely out of place. Valkorion is a great antagonist but is a horrible continuation of Vitiate/the Sith Emperor, as the two completely seem out of tune with one another and they just appear as 2 completely different characters. A huge shame, because Vitiate was an immensely intriguing villain, something Valkorion failed to live up to or continue. The Eternal Fleet is just a ridiculous story concept that should never have been introduced in the first place. I'm glad it's gone, just like the Gravestone (gag). Zakuul would have been an interesting bit of lore had the story revolved around a three-way war with the Sith and Republic. But now again it felt outlandish and completely out of touch with the rest of the Star Wars universe, in particularly SWTOR's setting.

 

My grade for KotFE: 4.5/10

 

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

Suffice to say, when I was done with KofFE I was severely regretting that I had chosen to go through that story on my Jedi Knight. I once again understood why I had deleted my previous mains after having finished the Traitor arc on them, because they felt completely ruined. My Jedi Knight felt like some bland tasteless piece of paper called "The Outlander/Commander" whose backstory had just been erased. I had enjoyed replaying the Jedi Knight class story so much, but that felt like an entirely different game even though I had finished it only a few weeks ago back then. I finished all the Alliance Alerts because I am an obsessive compulsive completionist and moved onto KotET...

 

The first Chapter of KotET actually was a redeemer for me, it took away much of the bad taste KotFE left in my mouth. Probably this was due to the fact it got back into touch with the pre-KotFE story content and I once again got the Star Wars/SWTOR feel with it.

 

Chapter 2 was a treat! I absolutely adore the Sith Empire so finally, finally having it be a focus of the plot again was so enjoyable to me. The SWTOR feel was completely back, my interest skyrocketed as well as my investment in the story. We got to see more of Dromund Kaas, we finally saw Empress Acina and engaged with her... this chapter just felt incredibly good.

 

Chapter 3, eh, it sadly put a damper on what I felt during Chapter 2 and mainly I just felt like the /shrug emote during it. The Vaylin/Valkorion dynamic was an interesting bit but that lasted very shortly.

 

I would have preferred if Chapter 4 and 5 of KotET hadn't been written.

 

Chapter 6 luckily repaired things again and despite the "puzzle" at the start, I actually felt invested in the story again and enjoyed myself. We finally got to see Zakuul from a more realistic side, seeing the consequences of the way their society functioned.

 

I loved Chapter 7, I'd say it was one of the highlights of KotET. The SWTOR feel was prevalent throughout the entirety of it (especially the feel I got in the Revan novel), Nathema is just an amazing planet in the lore of this game and the story was great. The only thing I missed was Lord Scourge during this chapter, especially while playing it on a Jedi Knight. It was a gigantic missed opportunity to introduce him back into the story during this chapter. It would have made the feel of the chapter complete.

 

Chapter 8 wasn't bad storywise, but while I enjoyed the Walker bit in Chapter 1 it felt tedious here. Nonetheless, the narrative was well-done. Despite the fact I had already played it before, the choice between Torian or Vette still managed to get me torn about it and that's what I want within the stories I play: just like in ME I want to feel the weight of my choices, I want to see the consequences not as some story flavour but actually impacting the story. The Torian/Vette choice didn't feel as good as the Kaidan/Ashley choice in Mass Effect, but it still managed to get me to feel which is what I want from the stories I play.

 

Chapter 9 was the highlight of the expansion. Yes, I detest the Eternal Fleet but as a Reaper-ripoff I did enjoy them (albeit I wished more creativity had been put into it instead of copy pasting the Reapers from ME). Nonetheless, I felt the threat to the galaxy which was enjoyable, it made me feel invested. Valkorion's betrayal never had been a surprise to me and I actually had a good laugh feigning terrible shock IRL at the scene. I mean, it's so utterly obvious all his talk about "growing beyond Light and Dark" was just him manipulating us into becoming weaker and therefore easier to possess eventually. But I admit, playing as Valkorion in Chapter 9 is one of the best things introduced into the game. The entire story of the final showdown with him is very nicely written and captivating. I only wish Valkorion/Vitiate had been defeated... differently. Defeating him with a holocron, basically a mere trinket, felt... anticlimactic. Especially when you keep Ziost in mind, vanquishing the immortal and almighty Sith Emperor with a holocron feels odd, but what's done is done. The ending of Chapter 9 I don't want to talk about because here is where my positivity ends. The fact the Alliance becomes the Eternal Alliance invokes very strong sensations of nausea within me and the fact we aren't allowed to disband the Alliance and return to our original factions just really frustrates me to this day. Suffice to say, the ending of Chapter 9 put a damper on the entirety of it.

 

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

Summary of KotET: The story is partially a redeemer. Chapter 1 and 2 are really good and returned the Star Wars and SWTOR feel into the story for me. Chapters 3 to 5 I would have preferred if it had been left out of the story, preferably along with the Eternal Fleet but hey, my consolation is that it's gone now. Chapter 6 was enjoyable and Chapter 7 was one of the highlights of the expansion, Nathema is really amazing. Chapter 8 was good storywise but the Walker part felt tedious, sadly. The Torian/Vette choice was a very welcome part of the story, although I wish had received a little more care and attention storywise so that it would feel as good as the Kaiden/Ashley choice in ME. Chapter 9 was the highlight of the KotET story, barring the ending during which the Eternal Alliance is formed. That makes me gag still. Playing as Valkorion remains a blast to this day, but I wish his defeat/destruction had been handled differently. Ending him for good through a mere holocron just feels very anticlimactic.

 

My grade for KotET: 6.5, it would have been a 7.5 if during the ending of Chapter 9 the Eternal Alliance hadn't been formed. We should have been given the option to disband the Alliance and go back to our original factions at this point.

 

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

I disregarded the Uprisings because I just didn't see any reason to play them.

 

Onwards to the War for Iokath. While I still feel the entire concept of Iokath feels very outlandish and out of touch with Star Wars and SWTOR, I found myself really enjoying the story this time playing it. Maybe it was because I felt so deprived of the Galactic Republic and Sith Empire throughout KotFE and KotET that it felt so insanely good to have them be a focus of the story once more. The entire gods as superweapons thingy still feels silly to me, but all in all the story on Iokath was enjoyable this time around.

 

My grade for The War for Iokath: 7/10

 

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

Crisis on Umbara: nope.

 

My grade for Crisis on Umbara: 3/10 (the scenery was nice enough to raise it to 3/10)

 

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

Luckily I played Traitor Among the Chiss right after Umbara, which was the sole thing that had kept me sane after that debacle. Copero is just gorgeously designed and I really hope we'll get a Copero SH one day. The story was good, especially the focus on the Chiss was just amazing. I just wish we would have seen more or the Chiss Ascendancy, that we had dived deeper into the lore and story surrounding the Chiss. But nonetheless, I felt interested and invested, which made the flashpoint enjoyable.

 

My grade for Traitor Among the Chiss: 7.7/10

 

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

The Nathema Conspiracy really is an enjoyable bit for me. Mainly my positivity towards it comes from the fact it is a reset button, finally undoing the damage KotFE and KotET did to the main SWTOR storyline. Storywise it was good, the "Theron is actually a double-agent" bit was incredibly predictable but it's forgivable because it's still nicely wrapped up. What I enjoyed a lot in this bit of the story is that we finally saw some acknowledgement of our classes and our class stories again. Seeing Servant One appear was a nice touch that brought a little smile to my face, just wish the acknowledgement of our class and class story had gone deeper. One major critique that I have about the Nathema Conspiracy that's actually quite bothersome to me is how Zildrog is revealed to be what Vitiate had used in his ritual to consume all life on Nathema. It just completely undermined his character, because he felt much more mysterious, enigmatic and powerful when we assumed he had accomplished the ritual completely on his own. The "plottwist" that the Gravestone was actually Zildrog made my eyes roll more than surprise me, but... the complete and gorgeous eradication of the Eternal Fleet completely makes up for it. The scene where the entirety of the fleet goes boom is just so insanely satisfying to see, really, I always feel like I can finally breathe easily when I see that horrendous plot device eradicated. The heralding that the Eternal Alliance is done for at the end of the Nathema Conspiracy is the icing on the cake. Especially the dialogue option "I am done ruling the galaxy" is a very satisfactory choice to pick. All in all, this part of the story is a great reset button!

 

My grade for Nathema Conspiracy: 8/10

 

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

Conclusion: I have tried to understand what part of the playerbase finds enjoyable about KotFE and KotET, but sadly I have been unable to. My previously negative sentiments towards both expansions only were confirmed during this experiment, if not strengthened. One thing for sure got stronger: my hatred for the Eternal Alliance as a story concept.

 

KotFE and KotET can be summarised into this: huge wasted potential. The base concepts introduced in the two stories is interesting but just horribly implemented. If we had a three-way war instead of Zakuul just nuking and dominating everything then the story would have been a thousandfold more enjoyable. Had Valkorion been more in tune with his portrayal as Vitiate his entire story would have been so much better. But most importantly, Bioware had the opportunity to add a third faction with Zakuul had they chosen the path of the "three-way war" instead. We could have even had new classes that way. Yet the most glaring missed opportunity here was the fact we could have had 3 seperate storylines, one Republic, one Empire and one Zakuul/Alliance. Missed opportunities.

 

To end this incredibly long thread; KotFE and KotET would have been interesting stories had they been a game on its own, completely detached from the main SWTOR story. But as a continuation of where the story ended in SoR and the Ziost arc, both KotFE and KotET are horrendous. It is my passionate hope that from Jedi Under Siege forward, we'll completely move away from the debacle that is Zakuul, the Eternal Alliance and the Commander/Outlander entity and return to the great story SWTOR had pre-KotFE.

 

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

For anyone who read the entire thread: thank you, your time and attention are hugely appreciated!

Edited December 10, 2018 by Ylliarus

Are you one who has ever read the SW novels?

 

Speaking for myself here but a lot of Kotfe and Kotet reminded me of those. I was heavily invested in the novels and the extended universe which went in the direction of an alliance. It was the logical step in the star wars saga after the destruction of the empire. Only once in a while did pockets of remaining empire emerge as a bit of a threat towards that alliance. There was however many storylines that involved heavily technologically advanced ancient races with dangerous weapons (Iokath) and other outside threats to the alliance (like Zakuul). The entire Kotfe and Kotet storyline after the destruction of the empire and and the republic had a very extended universe feel to it for me and as such, was very star warsy.

 

It's possible that could be the difference between those who enjoyed it, and those who did not. An alliance was the next logical step in the star wars saga based on the novels and the contining cycle of the SW universe.

Are you one who has ever read the SW novels?

 

Speaking for myself here but a lot of Kotfe and Kotet reminded me of those. I was heavily invested in the novels and the extended universe which went in the direction of an alliance. It was the logical step in the star wars saga after the destruction of the empire. Only once in a while did pockets of remaining empire emerge as a bit of a threat towards that alliance. There was however many storylines that involved heavily technologically advanced ancient races with dangerous weapons (Iokath) and other outside threats to the alliance (like Zakuul). The entire Kotfe and Kotet storyline after the destruction of the empire and and the republic had a very extended universe feel to it for me and as such, was very star warsy.

 

It's possible that could be the difference between those who enjoyed it, and those who did not. An alliance was the next logical step in the star wars saga based on the novels and the contining cycle of the SW universe.

 

I have read a lot of the SW novels yes, more than once even, especially the SWTOR novels.

 

Well, it proves that everyone experiences the same thing differently, because in my honest opinion the novels and KotFE are nothing alike. KotET and the Revan novel might carry a vibe of similarity, but the rest absolutely not. I get what you're getting at, in Fatal Alliance you do have the Imps and Reps working together, but there is a realistic level of distrust between them and they part ways once their goal is accomplished. That portrayal of an alliance between Imps and Reps seems realistic to me, the way KotFE and KotET went about it not. In the Outlander's Alliance everyone just meriliy joins forces and happily sings kumbaya with their mortal enemies. Or at least, that's how I experienced it replaying it.

 

Perhaps to you an Alliance like the Eternal Alliance seemed a logical step, to me, it absolutely didn't. Would I have been against a temporary alliance of Imps and Reps like on Yavin or in Fatal Alliance? Absolutely not, I would have accepted it without qualms. But KotFE went about it completely the wrong way.

 

Sidenote: the name Eternal Alliance is horrendous in itself. Alliances are inherently of a temporary nature, so naming something that is meant to be temporary or finite "eternal" is a bit ridiculous, but that's me.

Edited December 9, 2018 by Ylliarus

Ooooh, a rant about storytelling, writing and what makes a quality story, interesting, let's read and maybe discuss...

 

My grade for the Jedi Knight class story: 9/10

 

 

...or not.

Ooooh, a rant about storytelling, writing and what makes a quality story, interesting, let's read and maybe discuss...

 

 

 

 

...or not.

 

Have you ever heard of the concept "opinions can differ, but the fact they differ doesn't make one of them inherently worse"? A huge pity you judge the rest of the thread by only that bit. I heavily enjoyed the Jedi Knight story, you clearly didn't, does that make you or me better or worse? Nope, it doesn't.

Edited December 9, 2018 by Ylliarus

I have read a lot of the SW novels yes, more than once even, especially the SWTOR novels.

 

Well, it proves that everyone experiences the same thing differently, because in my honest opinion the novels and KotFE are nothing alike. KotET and the Revan novel might carry a vibe of similarity, but the rest absolutely not. I get what you're getting at, in Fatal Alliance you do have the Imps and Reps working together, but there is a realistic level of distrust between them and they part ways once their goal is accomplished. That portrayal of an alliance between Imps and Reps seems realistic to me, the way KotFE and KotET went about it not. In the Outlander's Alliance everyone just meriliy joins forces and happily sings kumbaya with their mortal enemies. Or at least, that's how I experienced it replaying it.

 

Perhaps to you an Alliance like the Eternal Alliance seemed a logical step, to me, it absolutely didn't. Would I have been against a temporary alliance of Imps and Reps like on Yavin or in Fatal Alliance? Absolutely not, I would have accepted it without qualms. But KotFE went about it completely the wrong way.

 

Sidenote: the name Eternal Alliance is horrendous in itself. Alliances are inherently of a temporary nature, so naming something that is meant to be temporary or finite "eternal" is a bit ridiculous, but that's me.

 

By KOTFE many had been displaced for sometime. What was left of the empire and the republic were but shadows of their former selves. Essentially many of those working together in the alliance were neither empire or republic any longer and hadn't been for sometime before we came along, and even then if you listen to the banter in the halls of the base there was still some tension between the former empire and republic members.

 

A big portion of those who worked for both, were simply lackies. Those born into one side or another going about day to day life doing their jobs, neither good or bad, simply there. By Kotfe much of the leadership on both sides had been destroyed and with the blockaides hindering supplylines, many of those regular folk would have been out of a job - along comes the alliance and offers them one. Your looking at them as loyal to one side or the other. Many really weren't, they were just fighting for their homes. Homes no longer protected by one side or the other that needed liberating from Zakuul, an offer which the alliance had on the table. So although former republic or empire in name only, the loyalists had mostly been destroyed already and what was left where those simply out to protect their homes and jobs. Something only the alliance was in a position to offer them.

 

Your looking at it all wrong if your looking at them all as sworn enemies of each other, most weren't. Not really. They were just doing their jobs that bought in the paychecks to feed their families.

By KOTFE many had been displaced for sometime. What was left of the empire and the republic were but shadows of their former selves. Essentially many of those working together in the alliance were neither empire or republic any longer and hadn't been for sometime before we came along, and even then if you listen to the banter in the halls of the base there was still some tension between the former empire and republic members.

 

A big portion of those who worked for both, were simply lackies. Those born into one side or another going about day to day life doing their jobs, neither good or bad, simply there. By Kotfe much of the leadership on both sides had been destroyed and with the blockaides hindering supplylines, many of those regular folk would have been out of a job - along comes the alliance and offers them one. Your looking at them as loyal to one side or the other. Many really weren't, they were just fighting for their homes. Homes no longer protected by one side or the other that needed liberating from Zakuul, an offer which the alliance had on the table. So although former republic or empire in name only, the loyalists had mostly been destroyed already and what was left where those simply out to protect their homes and jobs. Something only the alliance was in a position to offer them.

 

Your looking at it all wrong if your looking at them all as sworn enemies of each other, most weren't. Not really. They were just doing their jobs that bought in the paychecks to feed their families.

 

And here I come telling you that it's you who is looking at them wrong... perhaps we can at least agree that we both look at them differently but that neither you or I am wrong? Labelling either your view or mine as wrong isn't a good foundation for a sensible debate.

 

When you look at the Sith Empire, it's not just people doing their job. The Empire heavily indoctrinates its citizens, already from an early age Imperial children are taught that the Republic and Jedi are evil, that they seek the total annihilation of the Sith and their followers. The Sith genocide at the end of the Great Hyperspace War is a major piece of indoctrination used by the institutions of the Sith Empire. Loyalty is bred into the Imperial citizenry, it's not just a mentality of "paying the bills". Here is a piece quoted from Wookieepedia explaining the mentality of the Imperial within the Empire:

 

"The average Imperial citizens were convinced that the cause of the Empire was a righteous one. Imperials, like the Sith, saw the Republic as nothing more than an inefficient, chaotic, bloated, corrupt, mish-mash of different species and nations each supporting its own agenda ahead of that of the entire Republic. They also held great contempt for the Republic Senate and other political leaders who were placed in power through wealth, family connections, and corruption, rather than earning their position like the Sith Lords. Despite initial Jedi and Republic beliefs that most Imperials would welcome them as liberators from the yoke of the Sith, most Imperials were happy to serve the Dark Lords, and bore resounding hatred for the Jedi and Republic and all they stood for. Imperial society was based on the ideology of the strong ruling and the weak serving. Imperial citizens saw the Sith as a stronger force and therefore it was their natural right to rule.

 

The vast majority of Imperials felt that the Empire was the only force that could impose peace, stability and order on the galaxy, and that it was their duty to see that it did by any means necessary. Also, many Imperials viewed the war with the Republic as a war for survival rather than conquest. Like the Sith, the Imperial citizens were educated about the end of the Great Hyperspace War and the carnage from the Republic and Jedi holocaust of the Sith people that resulted in the indiscriminate massacre and near extinction of the entire Sith civilization. The people of the Empire did not forget the horrors inflicted on them by the Republic, and Sith and Imperial alike believed that if they didn't wipe out the Jedi and Republic first, then they would be wiped out by them. They feared that the Jedi would succeed in destroying all traces of the Sith Empire." - Wookieepedia

 

"Compulsory military service is one of the central tenets of Imperial society. Those who are not Force-sensitive are automatically enlisted as soon as they become adults, and remain in the Empire's service until retirement or when death or disability renders them unable to contribute. There is no advancement through wealth or manipulation and no honor or influence is granted by birth alone - save for those attuned to the force, who then become sith. Those who serve well, advance. Those who fail gain nothing. As a result of their service, the average Imperial citizen is disciplined, dedicated, and highly invested in the success of the Empire. Though not every citizen acts as a frontline soldier or starship crewman, the military mindset is ingrained in every level of society. No one is poor, and no one is idle. Everyone serves." - PG 116, SWTOR Encyclopedia

 

What you are saying might be true for the Republic and those who joined the Alliance from that side, but it's absolutely untrue for the Imperials. As you can see from the material I provided, the average Imperial citizen was loyal to the Empire, they were indoctrinated from birth after all. That's why the ease with how the Imperials accept Reps as their comrades is breaking immersion and consistency with the established lore. I am not saying they'd never work together, because clearly there are more pragmatic minds among the Sith just as there are more radical minds within the Republic (Saresh is a good example). However, the Imperials have been led to believe since birth that the Republic and Jedi are their mortal enemies, that's simply how Imperial education works. There should have been a lot more internal strive and tension within the Alliance to make it believable, in my opinion. The way it's done now it's just as if everyone came to hold hands to sing kumbaya very loudly around a campfire.

Edited December 9, 2018 by Ylliarus

Have you ever heard of the concept "opinions can differ, but the fact they differ doesn't make one of them inherently worse"? A huge pity you judge the rest of the thread by only that bit. I heavily enjoyed the Jedi Knight story, you clearly didn't, does that make you or me better or worse? Nope, it doesn't.

 

Where did I knock your opinion? It's just that I am not interested in discussion, because you giving the near perfect score to shallow ego-stroking wish fulfillment fantasy story with extremely blatant Mary Sue for protagonist does not make you something I'd want to talk about storytelling. To compare -- I would not look down on anyone who loves "Fifty shades of Grey", but I would neither discuss literature with them nor would I take their "9/10, it's perfection" score of anything written for face value.

Personally, Kotfe and Kotet feel more star warsy films the more I think about it. There’s a story about a family with the force, the alliance is like a rebellion against a greater power being formed, and you get a cast of unlikely heroes to join your rebellion. But at the same time, we are introduced to something fresh with Zakkul. And for my jedi knight, it felt like his true story. The only thing is, I agree Iokath was a bit much of a stretch and they went a little too mass effect for my liking with that. And the post Kotet Iokath story doesn’t do any favors either.

 

I enjoy redoing kotfe/kotet more than the other expansions at this point though. Hutt Cartel I skip it all the time now after 1 run with each faction, I find it pretty boring and adds nothing to your characters. Shadow of Revan is good and always do it so far, but ultimately feel the Revan bits at the end is so convoluted no matter how many times I have replayed it, and there isn’t many varied options to do, but is always good to do at least the class mini mission. The class mini missions on that do make me emotional because we get to decide what our character is or wants to be, in a lot of them. Kotfe I enjoyed doing it also with the agent and other classes with a comp on the story, I really enjoyed how the Kaliyo plays out with him, specially if you romanced her but break up during the class story. My only other gripe is that I wish some classes like Inquisitor and smuggler didn’t got left out to get a comp in the chapters. It does feel a bit more lackluster running it with them unless you romanced Lana or Theron.

 

As for what comes after Kotet, not a fan of Iokath though Im glad to see Acina and Malcolm, the gameplay in there is just ugh lol. Umbara is visually nice, and works good enough to make you wonder on Theron. Traitor Among the Chiss is just boring, is visually awesome till you end up fighting billion of waves. Raina joining you for every class also adds to the boringness, and the Theron plot hardly moves. Then comes Nathema which I think its probably one of my favorite story beats. I enjoyed very much how they let us see multiple recordings to clear things up on what’s going on. While the whole supermachine thing was meh, I enjoyed everything after and it seemed like the only way to remove anything from Iokath’s power to be gone for good.

 

I think on the pub vs imp though is probably our key disagreement, while I know its the core of the game as an mmo, as a story at this point, I feel most of my characters would stay as their own alliance. Both factions have pretty much betrayed you left and right, so it just seems more natural your character rather have its own independence but be allies with a faction. I just don’t see our characters being a pawn again, serving someone.

Where did I knock your opinion? It's just that I am not interested in discussion, because you giving the near perfect score to shallow ego-stroking wish fulfillment fantasy story with extremely blatant Mary Sue for protagonist does not make you something I'd want to talk about storytelling. To compare -- I would not look down on anyone who loves "Fifty shades of Grey", but I would neither discuss literature with them nor would I take their "9/10, it's perfection" score of anything written for face value.

 

Well, I in turn wouldn't want to discuss literature with with someone who is an elitist and thinks too much of themselves, so touche! It's one of the things I was taught while studying English language and literature at uni, to never overinflate my own ego when it comes to literature.

 

You'd be surprised how many people who love "Fifty Shades of Grey", for example, are well-versed in literature. Unless your world is rather black or white, then loving material like "Fifty Shades of Grey" and being literary savvy is not mutually exclusive. But that's a discussion for another place and another time.

Edited December 9, 2018 by Ylliarus

Well, I in turn wouldn't want to discuss literature with with someone who is an elitist and thinks too much of themselves, so touche!

 

That's quite some attributes you projected onto me just from my hatred of Mary Sues. In my eyes the fact that you think power fantasies are good makes you, well, a person who thinks power fantasies are good. Not enough data to make a more complete portrait, probably because of my degree in computers. Or not.

 

And of course there are plenty of intelligent people who liked "50 shades", but I kind of doubt any of them would claim it's a well-written book.

 

Anyway, on topic, I really liked the 4th and 5th (those on Iokath, right?), chapters of KOTFE. I'm a bit biased here because it reminded me of "Mass Effect" a little, but that aside I found them among the least nonsensical ones.

 

Also, Nathema Conspiracy's story is a dumpster fire of colossal proportions, I give it -273.15 out of 10 and I already ranted on it when it went live, I think, so I am not honoring that garbage with a repeat.

That's quite some attributes you projected onto me just from my hatred of Mary Sues. In my eyes the fact that you think power fantasies are good makes you, well, a person who thinks power fantasies are good. Not enough data to make a more complete portrait, probably because of my degree in computers. Or not.

 

And of course there are plenty of intelligent people who liked "50 shades", but I kind of doubt any of them would claim it's a well-written book.

 

Anyway, on topic, I really liked the 4th and 5th (those on Iokath, right?), chapters of KOTFE. I'm a bit biased here because it reminded me of "Mass Effect" a little, but that aside I found them among the least nonsensical ones.

 

Also, Nathema Conspiracy's story is a dumpster fire of colossal proportions, I give it -273.15 out of 10 and I already ranted on it when it went live, I think, so I am not honoring that garbage with a repeat.

 

Ah, but perhaps herein lies the issue. Do I believe the stories in this game are the height of literary work? No, most certainly not. Would I still grade the class stories with a 9/10? Absolutely, but that grade is purely based on my experiences with the story and my personal opinion. I kind of assumed that everyone would understand the grades I gave each story instalment in my OP weren't based on any recognised literary scale, other than my own opinion, as my review was by no means meant as a scholarly one. But surely that's no reason to dismiss a discussion with someone?

 

While Chapters 4 and 5 did give off a Mass Effect feel, that's exactly what bothered me with them. They would fit excellently in a Mass Effect story, but they felt out of place (to me) in the SWTOR setting, which is vastly different. It's why I lost interest in the story during those two chapters, they didn't feel 'right' in my opinion.

 

I don't think Nathema was that bad. I can get the frustration people have with the various possible NPC deaths that can occur, but the funny thing is that people complained their heads off when we had no variety in story options in KotFE and KotET, but when it does happen in Nathema players complain about it. But I don't really see why that flashpoint would be a "a dumpster fire of colossal proportions". In my opinion it was a very necessary reset button.

Edited December 9, 2018 by Ylliarus

Well, everyone likes different things.

 

The JK's class story is my fav, and my JK is my main character

 

I find Makab utterly borring. I usually skip it because it doesn't change anything for the character you're playing anyways. I do like that there are 2 separate storylines who complete each other though.

 

SoR, well i really like it, i found the story interesting, and the fact that your character is at this point forced to work with the ennemy was interesting. And the fact that it finally gave me a nice romance option on my JK made it even better.

 

Ziost, well i like how it goes and how it ends, with our character utterly failing to stop the Emperor, again if you're a JK, and realising that not killing him on DK had desatrous consequences, especially considering the fact that you actually fail to save the ennemy, and thet Vitiate sacrificed his own people without any consideration for the fact that they had been entirely devoted to him for centuries.

 

I really enjoyed KOTFE, some chapters more than others, i love the concept of the Alliance, for me it was actually a nice continuation of what happend during SoR. My JK had worked with Sith on several occasions, she's actually more open minded than most Jedi, and came to realise that trying to destroy them would not bring peace but having these people work together, they may end up realising that they're not that different and that there could be peace between them.

KOTET, i think it would've been so much better if it had not been so rushed actually. I hate replaying the first chapter, simply because the walker part is such a pain to do, it's slow, long and plain boring.

 

By the end of KOTET, my JK did not consider herself a Jedi anymore, she's done much more with the Alliance in a few years than with the Jedi during the rest of her life.

 

Now the traitor arc, Iokath was a real pain, being forced to chose a faction when she'd have been more likely to send them both away, was horrible, some parts don't fully make sense.

Umbara, hm, not that great, not that bad either, but not something i'm that willing to replay,.

Copero, damn, this one is such a giant pain. The scenery of Copero is gorgeous, but the FP is ridiculously annoying, it's just a giant, endless "FOR HOUSE INROKINI" slugfest, and it doesn't even advance the story that much, there was near to 0 interaction between Theron and my JK while they're lovers, which made things even worse.

Nathema, well it was pretty good, i liked the proposal at the end, but i really hope they'll keep their word about Theron still being part of the story despite having a leave for dead option.

Loosing the EF and the Gravestone, i actually don't really care as long as i can keep the Alliance.

 

All that being said, i'm really not in a hurry to see what's to come, i'm among those who don't want to go back to Imp vs Pub and who would rather stay neutral with the Alliance than go back to the old factions, and i clearly don't intend to even approach that storyline untill i know that there will at the very least be an option to keep the Alliance for those who want to.

I don't think Nathema was that bad. I can get the frustration people have with the various possible NPC deaths that can occur, but the funny thing is that people complained their heads off when we had no variety in story options in KotFE and KotET, but when it does happen in Nathema players complain about it. But I don't really see why that flashpoint would be a "a dumpster fire of colossal proportions". In my opinion it was a very necessary reset button.

 

What do you mean by variety here? If those characters from personal stories, I don't think that's variety; on the contrary, it's akin to the thing that was done to the PCs, when eight wildly different types were merged into one Outlander and as a result KOTET/FE story does not really fit any of them. Nathema makes, say, previously rational and even paranoically suspicious characters walk into very obvious trap and the motivation -- they really truly totally hate our Outlander on deeply personal level -- makes bupkis sense. Writing memorable characters used to be one of Bioware's key strengths since forever, and seeing them sacrifice integrity by making a bunch of characters go stupidly OOC just to provide closure? Really?

I didn't read the entire post because it was just too long, but I skimmed enough to get the gist of what your saying. I liked KOTFE and KOTET. I even liked the traitor story if you romance either Lana or Theron because you get a resolution with their romance. If you aren't interested in establishing a romance with Lana, Theron, Koth, or Arcann and hate running these chapters, then skip them when 5.10 comes out. I run them on characters who want to romance one of the above. Plus I like some of the LI reunions and other companion returns. I don't think the story is terrible. Of course it's missing content that I would have liked to see explored more, but the writing wasn't as bad as the traitor story that followed. I would still run them. After all, I have no problem creating a level 1 character and running all three chapters, plus SoR and Ziost so these wouldn't be any different. That's my opinion anyway.

I didn't read the entire post because it was just too long, but I skimmed enough to get the gist of what your saying. I liked KOTFE and KOTET. I even liked the traitor story if you romance either Lana or Theron because you get a resolution with their romance. If you aren't interested in establishing a romance with Lana, Theron, Koth, or Arcann and hate running these chapters, then skip them when 5.10 comes out. I run them on characters who want to romance one of the above. Plus I like some of the LI reunions and other companion returns. I don't think the story is terrible. Of course it's missing content that I would have liked to see explored more, but the writing wasn't as bad as the traitor story that followed. I would still run them. After all, I have no problem creating a level 1 character and running all three chapters, plus SoR and Ziost so these wouldn't be any different. That's my opinion anyway.

 

Yeah, everything you said. Call me crazy but I really, really love KOTET, Iokath, and the FPs that follow. KOTFE not as much, but I still enjoy it. I've gone through the whole thing eight times now and I don't get tired of it. Although I could do without the Lady of Sorrows chapter and the Vaylin/Valkorion fight at the end of KOTET. Different strokes for different folks.

Yeah, everything you said. Call me crazy but I really, really love KOTET, Iokath, and the FPs that follow. KOTFE not as much, but I still enjoy it. I've gone through the whole thing eight times now and I don't get tired of it. Although I could do without the Lady of Sorrows chapter and the Vaylin/Valkorion fight at the end of KOTET. Different strokes for different folks.

 

I will admit that KotET was actually enjoyable and I wouldn't mind replaying that bit again. As can be seen in the OP, I actually have fairly little negative criticism about that expansion. The only thing I have to remark is that Chapters 4 and 5 of KotET aren't my cup of tea in regards to SWTOR, it felt too outlandish. But had those two chapters been part of a Mass Effect game I would have loved them!

Edited December 9, 2018 by Ylliarus

I will admit that KotET was actually enjoyable and I wouldn't mind replaying that bit again. As can be seen in the OP, I actually have fairly little negative criticism about that expansion. The only thing I have to remark is that Chapters 4 and 5 of KotET aren't my cup of tea in regards to SWTOR, it felt too outlandish. But had those two chapters been part of a Mass Effect game I would have loved them!

I'd agree with you on these 2 chapters though, clearly not my fav out of these 2 expansions

Those two chapters didn't really serve any purpose other than to get rid of Scorpio.

I've been playing it through again for my latest Jedi Knight and I think your observations are valid enough. I can never get enough of the vanilla story, SOR and even Ziost is interesting. I spaced conversation in Hutt Cartel in places and I found that I was doing the same thing in KOTFE, unless the chapter featured a character/companion I liked. And I do have to say it's a slog to get through KOTFE...I'm not relishing KOTET and I honestly don't think my JK for Doc is going to be finished by Tuesday. The KOTs just don't inspire me to play or even watch the cutscenes which I typically love.

 

If I get this JK done, it'll be a long time before I take another toon through it again.

I enjoyed parts of all of the expansions. I actually wish that they hadn't cut everything up. I think a lot more people would have liked them more if they had simply added some group content onto Zakul that made sense with the story being told. But, I'm one who gets bored with the dumb imp vs pub tripe so....

 

That said, there are a few chapters that are hell to play. The one with Satele and Mar comes to mind. Not because I don't think that what they're trying to teach you doesn't have value, it was just a dumb way to get to it. I main a L5 Sith Warrior and every chance she got, she told Valkorian to take a hike (in approved forum language...), so why the hell would I go and ask for his help when there's a vital mission to do? I wanted to do that mission, not go gallivanting through the forest

 

I found the chapters on Asylum boring, too. Just took too long to move the story. And I hated the Scions. The rest was fun.

 

As for Iokath, well, I would have told both of them to kiss my a**, and get off my planet. I was a bit miffed that it wasn't an option. Storywise after that, it wasn't horrible. However, I will add here that the way the Republic was written throughout the expansions made choosing to side with them difficult. The Empire, regardless of your previous affiliation, swoops in to help you on Voss. And they don't even try to steal your throne when you go missing on Iokath the first time. Asina's letter makes me smile.

 

The only real interaction you get with the Republic before Iokath was a letter basically saying that they are siding with Arcan, and a psycho who tries to kill both you and the ruler of the Empire (yes, I'm aware that they officially denounce what she did, but would they have if she had succeeded?). The writers here should have done a better job of making the Republic more sympathetic. As it is, nearly all of my characters side with the Empire (even my soldier. Boy was Malcom mad at her....).

 

Umbara was interesting (Theron's letter after the fact to a romanced character is heartbreaking), but it was missed potential. There could have been so much more added to the story, but it felt too rushed.

 

Corpero made me want to punch Theron in the face, despite the fact that I'd romanced him. That was the worst slog I have ever had the misfortune to run through. Even after they tweaked the HP on the bosses, it's still a chore. Storywise, it left a lot to be desired. I got the impression they had more planned, but were only given enough resources to finish about a third of it. Also, stop with the "FOR HOUSE IROKINI!!!!!!" I get it. I promise, I get it.....

 

Nathema was a nice change. The story was actually pretty good. The call back to the class story was fun, even if I don't remember who some of these people are. It didn't feel as rushed as the first two, but still suffered from lack of resources. The conclusion to the Traitor Arc (hell the whole story really) would have really benefited if it had been told as a true expansion and not a bridge. There are plot holes you can fit the Eternal Fleet through. But, in the end, my girl got her stupid spy boyfriend back, so it wasn't all bad. I got the feeling it was written for Theron fans. Even the "death" wasn't a death and I think those who wanted to kill him will be disappointed next because it was ambiguous enough to leave open the question of if he actually died or not.

 

So that's my two cents. No one who absolutely hated the expansions is going to turn someone who loved them and vise versa. Overall, I enjoyed them. Could they be better? Absolutely. But I liked getting away from the tired old troupe of imp vs pub for a little while. Zakul was a refreshing change.

I've been playing it through again for my latest Jedi Knight and I think your observations are valid enough. I can never get enough of the vanilla story, SOR and even Ziost is interesting. I spaced conversation in Hutt Cartel in places and I found that I was doing the same thing in KOTFE, unless the chapter featured a character/companion I liked. And I do have to say it's a slog to get through KOTFE...I'm not relishing KOTET and I honestly don't think my JK for Doc is going to be finished by Tuesday. The KOTs just don't inspire me to play or even watch the cutscenes which I typically love.

 

If I get this JK done, it'll be a long time before I take another toon through it again.

 

KotFE is indeed really hard to get through after Chapter 5, in the sense that I really had to force myself to slog on, as you put it. I think for me the worst parts to get through were Asylum in Chapter 8 and Kaliyo in Chapter 10. Those 2 are so incredibly long-winded and not even remotely interesting (to me at least).

 

I am still very surprised to see how much love the two expansions are getting on these forums, because anywhere else I go I just see "I hated KotFEET", "KotFE and KotET are horrible", "I never want to play those two expansions again" and so forth. It's a really interesting observation I think.

KotFE is indeed really hard to get through after Chapter 5, in the sense that I really had to force myself to slog on, as you put it. I think for me the worst parts to get through were Asylum in Chapter 8 and Kaliyo in Chapter 10. Those 2 are so incredibly long-winded and not even remotely interesting (to me at least).

 

I am still very surprised to see how much love the two expansions are getting on these forums, because anywhere else I go I just see "I hated KotFEET", "KotFE and KotET are horrible", "I never want to play those two expansions again" and so forth. It's a really interesting observation I think.

 

It's quite simple, a lot of the people who didn't like it stopped being subscribed and aren't here.

 

In any case, I think that the only character whose story barely holds during KotFE/ET is the JK. I would have preferred if the story was split into eight shorter stories, something congruent with each class, in a way that you can play all of them if you want more content (as it was in the original game).

Edited December 10, 2018 by LordVitalus

It's quite simple, a lot of the people who didn't like it stopped being subscribed and aren't here.

 

In any case, I think that the only character whose story barely holds during KotFE/ET is the JK. I would have preferred if the story was split into eight shorter stories, something congruent with each class, in a way that you can play all of them if you want more content (as it was in the original game).

 

Had KotFE and KotET been like that I probably would have loved it. To be honest, I wouldn't have minded it if they released each class story chapter monthly. I would have been more than happy to wait for each story if it meant we would have had seperate class stories. But sadly they chose to go down the route of KotFE and KotET. I really think it was a huge mistake to go down the path of Zakuul and the Alliance, it resulted in a lot of players leaving the game. As unpopular the Jedi vs Sith, Empire vs Republic narrative may seem on these forums, they're widely celebrated beyond and I am fairly convinced the majority of the playerbase no longer frequents these forums. Hopefully that mistake will be mended with Jedi Under Siege.

Edited December 10, 2018 by Ylliarus

KotFE is indeed really hard to get through after Chapter 5, in the sense that I really had to force myself to slog on, as you put it. I think for me the worst parts to get through were Asylum in Chapter 8 and Kaliyo in Chapter 10. Those 2 are so incredibly long-winded and not even remotely interesting (to me at least).

 

I am still very surprised to see how much love the two expansions are getting on these forums, because anywhere else I go I just see "I hated KotFEET", "KotFE and KotET are horrible", "I never want to play those two expansions again" and so forth. It's a really interesting observation I think.

 

People are more likely to complain than praise, I guess--the way of the human race. Those who like the Alliance are probably less vocal about it than those who don't. Absent a detailed study it's impossible to know which side has more haters/true believers. I just hope the coming expansion can make us all happy. Fat chance, I know...but I can dream!

 

But if the Alliance stays or goes I wouldn't take that as a victory for either side. The devs might have road mapped this story a long time ago, and surely Imps vs. Pubs in some form was always going to make a comeback. I'm very interested to see what form that takes.