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Same gender relationships clarifications?

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Story and Lore
Same gender relationships clarifications?

Nozybidaj's Avatar


Nozybidaj
01.31.2012 , 09:29 PM | #511
Quote: Originally Posted by MusedMoose View Post
A fair point, but I think part of the issue is that because this is an MMO, BW can and will continue to add things as the game goes along.
As a "veteran" of many a MMO launch back to the launch of games like WoW and CoH and more than I care to count up and including today with TOR, I know developers will say anything pre-release and around launch that they think will help sell the game and keep people subscribing. Many of which features never see the light of day. Until I see it in the patch notes I see no reason to expect it is coming.

The only response we have is a fluffed up marketing response they can copy and paste every time the issue comes up that might as well say "yeah if we ever get around to it". If there were any actual plans they'd have something with a little more meat on it. I honestly don't think they have any plans at all at the moment to include the content.

Forum threads are obviously easily ignored. Unless they get some external pressure from somewhere else, gaming sites, LGBT friendly sites, news outlets, etc., I get the distinct impression they are hoping to just do nothing and wait for the people that want this content to stop asking for it.

The only thing missing from the game is the PC VO for the romance arcs. If they had any intention of including it, the content would have been extremely easy to add even prior to launch.

Uluain's Avatar


Uluain
01.31.2012 , 11:07 PM | #512
Quote: Originally Posted by Zandilar View Post
Hey, it breaks it for me too you know.

I'm not saying they shouldn't fix it, I just think some people on this thread have unrealistic expectations about what Bioware can do. ... They have to draw a line somewhere, especially as this will be an ever growing game.

I agree with your first paragraph completely.

I never said we should give them a pass on this issue. I just think we need to be realistic in our expectations.
Sorry - I think I misread the tone of your post. What happens when I am put on the defensive.

I agree we can't have everything, but the more completely we can express what we would like, and what is lacking, the more Bioware has to work with in making improvements, and the closer to ideal those improvements can be. Expect the best. Shooting for less is self-defeating. Nothing is perfect, but nothing good comes from aiming for mediocrity.

Quote: Originally Posted by Nozybidaj View Post
Forum threads are obviously easily ignored. Unless they get some external pressure from somewhere else, gaming sites, LGBT friendly sites, news outlets, etc., I get the distinct impression they are hoping to just do nothing and wait for the people that want this content to stop asking for it.
This is a point I wanted to second. There are LGBT gamer sites out there with a large playerbase - www.gaygamer.net leaps to mind. That is one place to raise awareness of this issue. Traditional LGBT advocacy groups are another. I think particularly those that advocate for teens. Think how deeply MMOs and gaming penetrate the cultural awareness of young people. A positive example in a popular game could make a huge difference.

I intent to spread the word. I would hope others will, too. Be creative. Be wide-reaching.

And if we let Bioware forget or conveniently ignore their commitment, they will. If we hold them to it, demonstrate its importance, they can't.

kraidy's Avatar


kraidy
02.01.2012 , 12:43 AM | #513
Had this team been the same team that does ME or DA we would see a diffrent stance on S/S. I just get the feeling the TOR team simply does not care about S/S, like really. If the writers of Kaliyo, Temple and W2 decided to not write new dialog for female agent and left the flirty dialog just because it takes more work that's not lazyness. That's not giving a crap.

Lady_Alyria's Avatar


Lady_Alyria
02.01.2012 , 01:18 AM | #514
Quote: Originally Posted by Nozybidaj View Post
As a "veteran" of many a MMO launch back to the launch of games like WoW and CoH and more than I care to count up and including today with TOR, I know developers will say anything pre-release and around launch that they think will help sell the game and keep people subscribing. Many of which features never see the light of day. Until I see it in the patch notes I see no reason to expect it is coming.

The only response we have is a fluffed up marketing response they can copy and paste every time the issue comes up that might as well say "yeah if we ever get around to it". If there were any actual plans they'd have something with a little more meat on it. I honestly don't think they have any plans at all at the moment to include the content.

Forum threads are obviously easily ignored. Unless they get some external pressure from somewhere else, gaming sites, LGBT friendly sites, news outlets, etc., I get the distinct impression they are hoping to just do nothing and wait for the people that want this content to stop asking for it.

The only thing missing from the game is the PC VO for the romance arcs. If they had any intention of including it, the content would have been extremely easy to add even prior to launch.
I agree. I'd be surprised if we see anything regarding this before the first expansion.

Uluain's Avatar


Uluain
02.01.2012 , 01:30 AM | #515
Quote: Originally Posted by Lady_Alyria View Post
I agree. I'd be surprised if we see anything regarding this before the first expansion.
But I love surprises!

Bioware has really stuck it's foot in it. Token inclusion in an expansion would have been daring and proactive in, say, 1992. This is 2012. To have sat down, thought about it, discussed it and decided to shelve it until whenever? That's not inclusive. And waiting until an expansion in what, a year? two?, is unacceptable.

I know it will take time to implement. I'll settle for working in same-gender [Flirt] prompts from mission NPCs in a content patch until then.

gekko_s's Avatar


gekko_s
02.01.2012 , 01:39 AM | #516
Maybe the guy they assigned to this got sick

Zandilar's Avatar


Zandilar
02.01.2012 , 02:53 AM | #517
Quote: Originally Posted by Uluain View Post
Sorry - I think I misread the tone of your post. What happens when I am put on the defensive.
I tend to do that too, so I completely understand.

Quote:
I agree we can't have everything, but the more completely we can express what we would like, and what is lacking, the more Bioware has to work with in making improvements, and the closer to ideal those improvements can be. Expect the best. Shooting for less is self-defeating. Nothing is perfect, but nothing good comes from aiming for mediocrity.
But we need to remember that this is not a Single Player RPG (SPRPG), it's an MMO. They are two very different things. I am willing to put money on the OGRA being pretty shallow and thin as they are, since most of the companions will spend all of their time running crew skill missions and on the ship. Most of the time, those companions' affections are raised by gifts, not by actual adventuring, and so the only interaction you get is from the quiet conversations on the ship, and not their responses to your interactions during the course of levelling - this reduces the romance to not very much at all. This is about all we should expect, no matter how hard we whine and cry and say we want MMO versions of our favourite SPRPGs.

To give you an example - my IA(Ops) levelled exclusively with Kaliyo, until she got Temple. She took Temple out on a few missions, and realized that she really really really needs someone to keep the mobs backs to her to have any chance at all for some missions*... So I'm back to having Kaliyo, despite thinking Temple is sweet and cute and generally all around awesome. If my Agent was male, his romance would consist of giving Temple a plethora of gifts and a few conversations, since Temple would spend 99% of her time on the ship, running crew skill missions. Very shallow and disappointing. But that's just the nature of a game that tries to do so much.

(*I think Bioware needs to look at some Class Mission Bosses and tone them down, but that's not going to happen.)

Quote:
This is a point I wanted to second. There are LGBT gamer sites out there with a large playerbase - www.gaygamer.net leaps to mind. That is one place to raise awareness of this issue. Traditional LGBT advocacy groups are another. I think particularly those that advocate for teens. Think how deeply MMOs and gaming penetrate the cultural awareness of young people. A positive example in a popular game could make a huge difference.

I intent to spread the word. I would hope others will, too. Be creative. Be wide-reaching.

And if we let Bioware forget or conveniently ignore their commitment, they will. If we hold them to it, demonstrate its importance, they can't.
You know what might actually work. Pick a date, and everyone cancel their accounts on that date, giving the lack of SGRA as the reason. Get all of your friends, all of your guild mates, all of your family, anyone who you know who is supportive of SGRAs to all cancel their accounts.

Maybe then Bioware would listen.

(By the way, I'm not actually advocating this as a solution.)
Zandilar, an Australian, IN SPAAAAAAAACCCCEEEEE!!
Too many characters, most of them Chiss.

Uluain's Avatar


Uluain
02.01.2012 , 05:21 AM | #518
Quote: Originally Posted by MusedMoose View Post
[Citation needed] on that quote, please. I would like to see it, because I find it difficult to believe. Thanks.
This was the incident in question. The end result was Bioware rethinking its policy and un-censoring the words:

http://www.vg247.com/2009/04/28/biow...-old-republic/

Note this was two, three years ago, and Bioware was not as on top of their game as they like to present themselves so far as nondiscrimination is concerned. Yes, they changed their stance on this - but only after a media furor.

Perhaps that is why Bioware is lying low now, and unwilling to have an open dialog with us on this topic, because of the hostile attention drawn from some quarters by the rumor that we actually have this in the game.

Personally, I would like this to be a "teachable moment" for all concerned. Bioware needs to take a stand and quit trying to ride the fence. Either they stand by this content, commit to its inclusion, and are frank about what it will or won't entail, or they cave in to the reactionary hoohaw and withdraw it.

But they probably think letting the statement they already have stand, unclarified, is the best way to weather this. Maybe it is. But it is a shame they'd leave their subscribers in the dark, when they have been ready to discuss all manner of other development-related subjects.

"The only thing worse than being talked about is not being talked about." - Oscar Wilde

Nozybidaj's Avatar


Nozybidaj
02.01.2012 , 04:38 PM | #519
Quote: Originally Posted by Uluain View Post
This is a point I wanted to second. There are LGBT gamer sites out there with a large playerbase - www.gaygamer.net leaps to mind. That is one place to raise awareness of this issue. Traditional LGBT advocacy groups are another. I think particularly those that advocate for teens. Think how deeply MMOs and gaming penetrate the cultural awareness of young people. A positive example in a popular game could make a huge difference.

I intent to spread the word. I would hope others will, too. Be creative. Be wide-reaching.
Agreed. Spreading the word at this point is the only chance I think we'll ever see this content. I don't believe any number of forum posts or interest shown from the player base is going to change the status quo.

Quote: Originally Posted by Zandilar View Post
You know what might actually work. Pick a date, and everyone cancel their accounts on that date, giving the lack of SGRA as the reason. Get all of your friends, all of your guild mates, all of your family, anyone who you know who is supportive of SGRAs to all cancel their accounts.

Maybe then Bioware would listen.

(By the way, I'm not actually advocating this as a solution.)
I'd advocate any solution I thought would have an impact at this point. If that requires soliciting people to cancel their subscriptions, contacting LGBT groups or websites to raise their awareness hoping for support, whatever.

Uluain's Avatar


Uluain
02.01.2012 , 05:09 PM | #520
It seems that the Same Canned Answer is all that BioWare is offering in regard to [Flirt] prompts that stem from mission NPC conversations. In reply to a ticket where I observed these were not appearing for my character when the NPC was of the same gender, I received the following reply:

Quote:
Greetings ****,


I am Protocol Droid W*-** of Human-Cyborg Relations, and I have received your transmission.

Thank you for contacting us regarding same gender romance arcs in Star Wars: The Old Republic.

We would like to apologize for any inconvenience you may have experienced and would like to let you know that we are doing our best to make your in-game and out-game experience pleasant.

We hold our customers in the highest regard and we will be supporting you to our full knowledge and extent.

We understand that this topic is one that's very important to many of our community members, and we appreciate you contacting us for clarification.

Due to the design constraints of a fully voiced MMO of this scale and size, many choices had to be made as to the launch and post-launch feature set. Same gender romances with companion characters in Star Wars: The Old Republic will be a post-launch feature. Because The Old Republic is an MMO, the game will live on through content expansions which allow us to include content and features that could not be included at launch, including the addition of more companion characters who will have additional romance options.

We at BioWare and Star Wars: The Old Republic appreciate all our fans, and are proud to have a such a diverse and tolerant community.

Please do not hesitate to contact us again if there is anything further we can help you with.

Galactic Support is our specialty...


Sincerely,

Protocol Droid W*-**(aka ****)
Star Wars: The Old Republic Customer Service
I just don't see how BioWare can claim to "appreciate all their fans" while declining to address this issue. How many Dev posts did that thread in General Discussion about white lightsaber crystals get?

They care? Really? Really, BioWare? I am not buying it. And I probably won't be re-upping my subscription if BioWare keeps trying to ride the fence.

Last night, my Smuggler was on Nar Shaddaa, running a class story mission - the one which introduced me to the Wookiee, Bowdaar. I fought a squad of brutes with him and as my (male) Smuggler was leaving, I saw a (female) NPC with a mission-available mark over her head.

So I talk to her, and she comes oozing up to me all suggestively about what a real strong man I was and - predictably - there was the option to [Flirt]. But my Smuggler isn't interested. Because shw was overly familiar, I took the more snarky response - and that ended the dialog, no mission available from there. I have no idea what the other non-[Flirt] option would have unlocked.

Later, once I had returned to my ship, having completed the Nar Shaddaa portion of my class story, I received a distress call from a (female) starship captain. Again - and bizarrely since it was a distress call, the middle conversational prompt in reply was a [Flirt]. The first I chose gave me -1 affection from Corso. I hit Esc and restarted. The only other non-[Flirt] option... gave me -1 affection from Corso. I kept this result because clearly I was going to be punished regardless of what I chose, if it wasn't a [Flirt].

Really BioWare? Really? Not only do I not get to [Flirt] with NPCs that would interest me, and have to dailu see two to four opportunities to [Flirt] available which don't interest me, but I am actually going to be penalized for not flirting where you decide I ought to? Really?

Can you go over that part where you say "you hold your customers in the highest regard and you will be supporting me to your full knowledge and extent", again please? With a straight face? Seriously?

It is disappointing that I cannot play a Smuggler without encountering daily indications that I have be discounted as irrelevant. To encounter instances where I am penalized for not taking those very options that marginalize me is outrageous.

That is just really, really unfortunately thoughtless and inconsiderate and it is swiftly eroding what limited patience and understanding I had.