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Snipers are beyond broken but it's Sins who should be the ones to nerf ? Really ?


happerycube

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First off, I'll point out that it's my first post here ever, Although I've been lurking for years.

Also, I main assassin. Just saying so that you stay on topic and won't have to dismiss my point telling me I may be biased because I'm doing it for you. Now that's it out of the way.

 

Here's something I don't understand: I think sin is actually in a good spot. It has like almost no defense, no way to reliably regen health mid combat like most classes and just do a fair amount of damage outside of the maul opener.

It is squishy but hits hard when it comes out of the shadows, that's in the name, Assassin. The class is literally good because of one rotation, not because of its individual skills.

Yet people already acts like it's something crazy just because the class can now reliably kill stuff ?

 

Somehow people don't seem to care that other classes such as the sniper is overloaded with endless powerful abilities. I mean, that class is a freaking fortress:

 

- Immunity to stuns as long as it's in cover FROM WHATEVER DIRECTION. Never understood why we can't stun them from behind their cover which is not even protecting their back.

 

- Can't interrupt any of their abilities when in cover.

The other day in the gree wz, there was this sniper sitting on the top of the gree conduit with his cover. He was capturing the point and there was nothing i could do to stop him because this class doesn't know what interrupt is. How is that fair?

I might have been able to interrupt his channeling though? I don't know, correct me if I'm wrong.

 

Can't gap close them with abilities such as force leap or whatever.

 

- Will bump you numerous times if you somehow survived the first attempt at reaching them.

 

- Stun grenade. If you get too close again, they'll stun you and take all their time to reposition to mow you down.

 

- Let's rock and roll. Did you still SOMEHOW got to them? They will roll away. What a joke.

 

At this point you are probably long dead but if you by any chance did manage to catch them and are on the verge of purging the galaxy of their existence. What will they do? Teleport away with their new skill of course! As if they didn't have enough ways to escape. The Benny Hill theme almost plays in my head every time I fight a sniper. I mean how many times do I have to run to them to finally do something to them ?

Don't get me wrong, I've killed some awful ones but man even the decent ones are a nightmare to deal with.

 

So yeah, it's just funny how sin gets all this attention while the objectively ridiculously OP class is flying under the radars.

Seriously, the only thing I find is broken about the sin the ability to change tactical after a force cloak, that I agree. But the class is nowhere OP. Powerful but not tedious to tske down like the sniper.

Even then, there are decent counters like En garde amplifiers. I've seen sorcs and sage using this stun that goes off when their barrier is destroyed and it has prevented me from using the opener numerous times since I get stun just after I come out of stealth and use spike.

 

/rant over.

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There was a PVP podcast on twitch several days ago and when each member was asked which were the "Top 3" best classes in 6.0, snipers, along with lightning sorc were the two unanimous choices. People KNOW that snipers are strong, it's not a secret. Aside from the "phase-walk", all of your grievances....were around in 5.0. They didn't JUST get knockback root, or JUST get entrench CC immunity.

 

All that being said...do they need a nerf? Well, what exactly about them should be nerfed? The only thing I can think of is that their knockback doesn't need a root, not when they already have a root in leg shot. While their "phase-walk" is a good counter to diversion, it's CD is much longer than that of diversion so it won't always be there when a sniper needs it. Yellow damage dealers, Lightning Sorcs in particular still eat them up and in 6.0.....they may be the strongest class in PVP.

Edited by Csjbo
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- Can't interrupt any of their abilities when in cover.

The other day in the gree wz, there was this sniper sitting on the top of the gree conduit with his cover. He was capturing the point and there was nothing i could do to stop him because this class doesn't know what interrupt is. How is that fair?

I might have been able to interrupt his channeling though? I don't know, correct me if I'm wrong.

 

Using any direct attack will break cap casts on AHG, ACW, NC, Yavin, and Voidstar; you don't have to use an interrupt/knockback like you do on Odessen. In fact, in all my years of PvPing I don't think I've ever actually used an interrupt to break a cap :eek:

Edited by Mycroft-Tarkin
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You’re absolutely correct. However this will fall mostly on deaf ears. I wouldn’t necessarily call any class broken currently, but snipers are indeed strong. So are Ops, mercs, and sorcs.

I’ve been in matches where snipers, ops, and mercs have landed 70k+ hits. I was also in a void star where, I presume, a madness spec managed to spread out 10,000,000 damage over the course of the match.

 

Bottom Line is people are upset because they can no longer just ignore an attacking assassin or op in like they did before 6.0. It’s also easier to get in the forums and cry for nerfs rather than figure out how to beat a glass cannon.

Edited by mrdert
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There was a PVP podcast on twitch several days ago and when each member was asked which were the "Top 3" best classes in 6.0, snipers, along with lightning sorc were the two unanimous choices. People KNOW that snipers are strong, it's not a secret. Aside from the "phase-walk", all of your grievances....were around in 5.0. They didn't JUST get knockback root, or JUST get entrench CC immunity.

 

Those people must not have played much ranked yet (or are op/sin mains). Ops and sins are indisputably ahead of snipers and sorcs right now.

 

Lightning Sorcs in particular still eat them up and in 6.0.....they may be the strongest class in PVP.

 

While lightning sorcs seem pretty decent so far, this is a gross overstatement lol

 

Edit: I see the podcast you're referring to. Two of the players are mediocre and the other two are an op and a sin main. Not exactly a reliable resource by any stretch.

Edited by JediMasterAlex
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Everyone knows that phase walk is stupid. You don't have to argue that. Well established since they put it in the patch notes of PTS.

Everyone knows that closing distance on a sniper is difficult. You don't have to argue that. Well established since 5.0.

Everyone knows that Sniper is strong.

 

But you can't compare sins to snipers in order to justify that sins are not OP.

So let's break down your argument....

 

Here's something I don't understand: I think sin is actually in a good spot. It has like almost no defense, no way to reliably regen health mid combat like most classes and just do a fair amount of damage outside of the maul opener.

It is squishy but hits hard when it comes out of the shadows, that's in the name, Assassin.

 

If you really want to compare yourself to another glass cannon, compare yourself to PTs. They do comparable damage. And yet they have much fewer DCDs than sin. SIN UNDOUBTEDLY HAS MORE DCDs THAN PTS. So if you want to really call yourself a glass cannon, you're gonna have to loose something.

 

[sin] is literally good because of one rotation, not because of its individual skills.

Yet people already acts like it's something crazy just because the class can now reliably kill stuff ?

 

No. People are acting crazy because sin has one ability, maul, that does an average of 40-60k dps, with outliers at 80k. And then you spam it over and over again until you kill shiaiit. It's that retaardedly dumb. All the other strong burst classes (operative and MM sniper) in 6.0 do an average of 30-50k dps burst windows with outliers at 60k. AND THEY CAN'T SPAM THEIR BURST Look very closely at those numbers.... 80k compared to 60k. Spammable vs nonspammable burst.

 

So you pick. Loose the burst, or loose the defensives. IMO the solution is simple: nerf maul to 30-50k averages with 60k outliers. And at that point maybe sins would stop maul spamming so they wouldn't run out of energy. Who knows.....

 

But don't defend sins as if they aren't OP. Caus they just are. The only thing you can do is acknowledge the facts, and hope Bioware doesn't nerf it because they are dumb, complacent, and don't actually know their own game.

Edited by septru
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First off, I'll point out that it's my first post here ever, Although I've been lurking for years.

Also, I main assassin. Just saying so that you stay on topic and won't have to dismiss my point telling me I may be biased because I'm doing it for you. Now that's it out of the way.

 

Here's something I don't understand: I think sin is actually in a good spot. It has like almost no defense, no way to reliably regen health mid combat like most classes and just do a fair amount of damage outside of the maul opener.

It is squishy but hits hard when it comes out of the shadows, that's in the name, Assassin. The class is literally good because of one rotation, not because of its individual skills.

Yet people already acts like it's something crazy just because the class can now reliably kill stuff ?

 

Somehow people don't seem to care that other classes such as the sniper is overloaded with endless powerful abilities. I mean, that class is a freaking fortress:

 

- Immunity to stuns as long as it's in cover FROM WHATEVER DIRECTION. Never understood why we can't stun them from behind their cover which is not even protecting their back.

 

- Can't interrupt any of their abilities when in cover.

The other day in the gree wz, there was this sniper sitting on the top of the gree conduit with his cover. He was capturing the point and there was nothing i could do to stop him because this class doesn't know what interrupt is. How is that fair?

I might have been able to interrupt his channeling though? I don't know, correct me if I'm wrong.

 

Can't gap close them with abilities such as force leap or whatever.

 

- Will bump you numerous times if you somehow survived the first attempt at reaching them.

 

- Stun grenade. If you get too close again, they'll stun you and take all their time to reposition to mow you down.

 

- Let's rock and roll. Did you still SOMEHOW got to them? They will roll away. What a joke.

 

At this point you are probably long dead but if you by any chance did manage to catch them and are on the verge of purging the galaxy of their existence. What will they do? Teleport away with their new skill of course! As if they didn't have enough ways to escape. The Benny Hill theme almost plays in my head every time I fight a sniper. I mean how many times do I have to run to them to finally do something to them ?

Don't get me wrong, I've killed some awful ones but man even the decent ones are a nightmare to deal with.

 

So yeah, it's just funny how sin gets all this attention while the objectively ridiculously OP class is flying under the radars.

Seriously, the only thing I find is broken about the sin the ability to change tactical after a force cloak, that I agree. But the class is nowhere OP. Powerful but not tedious to tske down like the sniper.

Even then, there are decent counters like En garde amplifiers. I've seen sorcs and sage using this stun that goes off when their barrier is destroyed and it has prevented me from using the opener numerous times since I get stun just after I come out of stealth and use spike.

 

/rant over.

 

Pretty good first post :D

 

I think you hit the nail on the head. All this QQ about sins needing a nerf is ridiculous. Especially when they are sitting about the middle for balance.

 

There are other classes doing much better than sins at the moment.

 

If I had to guess, I would say a fair bit of the QQ is coming from the old FOTM merc players who have lost their status and now have to L2P.. I know for a fact that some of the loudest QQer’s on this forum for Sin Nerfs are self confessed MERC players. Which kind of supports that theory.

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My two cents... from a jugg main.

Snipers need a nerf in in their talent/ability pool.

My three quick bars are less for their talent (Not Utilities) when I run my sniper.

I can work with their root/cc immunity, uninterruptible actions but the amount of usable things they have is simply too much.

That said sniper is a hard to master class.

So nub-cakes dies pretty quickly and mediocre players struggles to keep up.

Edited by Ayushman
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4 things to make snipers more balanced:

1 - remove their 4sec stun. It's a turret ranged class, they should never have a MELEE stun.

2 - Remove the damage reduction from Dodge, they are completely immortal during those almost 5secs of Dodge due to so much damage reduction from ONE skill.

3 - Remove the root from their knockback.

4 - Flash bang down to 6secs instead of 8.

 

It's a class that is supposed to be tanky and IMMOBILE with average damage.. But they are SUPER tanky, very mobile AND has insane damage, that is too freaking much for a ranged class that can't be leapt to, can't be interrupted and has perma crowd-control immunity.

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4 things to make snipers more balanced:

1 - remove their 4sec stun. It's a turret ranged class, they should never have a MELEE stun.

2 - Remove the damage reduction from Dodge, they are completely immortal during those almost 5secs of Dodge due to so much damage reduction from ONE skill.

3 - Remove the root from their knockback.

4 - Flash bang down to 6secs instead of 8.

 

It's a class that is supposed to be tanky and IMMOBILE with average damage.. But they are SUPER tanky, very mobile AND has insane damage, that is too freaking much for a ranged class that can't be leapt to, can't be interrupted and has perma crowd-control immunity.

 

 

You just complained that sniper is too mobile for a turret ranged class and yet suggested 4 changes that have nothing to do with its mobility.

Edited by septru
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Snipers are very strong, one of the strongest ranged classes atm, but I don't think they need to be nerfed. When you account for all other classes competing against each other, and a tank/heals/dps scenario, they are balanced.

 

Agreed. I think they're in about the same position they were in in 5.x. Very good in the right hands, global bait in the wrong hands, not overpowered.

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ROFL and hence the issue with going to the community for balance suggestions.

 

Nah. You have to go to the community for balance caus Bioware is even dumber. It's just that some community members have more valid points than others....

 

I mean if you're gonna call for nerfs than call them for the the **** that actually needs to be nerfed. Countermeasures speed. Entrench root immunity and speed. Phasewalk.

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Edit: I see the podcast you're referring to. Two of the players are mediocre and the other two are an op and a sin main. Not exactly a reliable resource by any stretch.

 

Ouch. But if I remember correctly, I think my response to "top 3" was that Sniper was strong but will never be FOTM because it's one of those classes that can have the best kit in the world, but it requires too high of a skill floor for the average player to just pick it up and roll it as FOTM, unlike some other classes like Sin atm.

 

So in that sense, whoever said the 4 of us agreed on sniper being FOTM misquoted me slightly or at least took it out of context.

Edited by Jinre_the_Jedi
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Nah. You have to go to the community for balance caus Bioware is even dumber. It's just that some community members have more valid points than others....

 

I mean if you're gonna call for nerfs than call them for the the **** that actually needs to be nerfed. Countermeasures speed. Entrench root immunity and speed. Phasewalk.

 

I think he meant that the community cant agree on nerfs which makes it harder for BioWare to act on them. Some thing that Deception is fine, while others say they aren’t. They also have to account if it’s just a whiner or an actual complaint.

Edited by UltraFlashStar
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Care to put an ingame name to the forum name?

 

There are others on here that know who I am. I don't really care, but I prefer not to advertise it simply because it's an unnecessary distraction from most forum discussions. If I told you, all you would say, regardless of what your previous opinion of me would have been, is "LOL you're bad too." Not sure that adds much (and yes, there is some irony here given I did something similar a few posts back lol).

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Ouch. But if I remember correctly, I think my response to "top 3" was that Sniper was strong but will never be FOTM because it's one of those classes that can have the best kit in the world, but it requires too high of a skill floor for the average player to just pick it up and roll it as FOTM, unlike some other classes like Sin atm.

 

So in that sense, whoever said the 4 of us agreed on sniper being FOTM misquoted me slightly or at least took it out of context.

 

I was the one who mentioned the podcast, however, I did not claim that you guys said Sniper was FOTM, rather that you guys agreed it was one of the top 3 performing specs. FOTM =/= Top 3.

 

Hahahaha. Stain calling players mediocre. Lol

 

Jedimasteralex is not Stain.

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Ouch. But if I remember correctly, I think my response to "top 3" was that Sniper was strong but will never be FOTM because it's one of those classes that can have the best kit in the world, but it requires too high of a skill floor for the average player to just pick it up and roll it as FOTM, unlike some other classes like Sin atm.

 

So in that sense, whoever said the 4 of us agreed on sniper being FOTM misquoted me slightly or at least took it out of context.

 

This absolutely the case with sniper only a handful can truley play the class at the level needed to be god tier

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There are others on here that know who I am. I don't really care, but I prefer not to advertise it simply because it's an unnecessary distraction from most forum discussions.

 

Probably true... regardless, beyond the point. Snipers might need nerfs, but sniper's strengths don't justify sin's OPness.

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Let me tell you how much Sins are broken. I level a Sin in Feb 2012, as tank, and always played as tank, very casually.

This character of mine was more made for crafting Biochem and some casual play. Anyways as at today has valor 90, most made from playing to gear up in the old days.

Anyways fast forward to update 6.0. I am fed up in tanking and decided to try the burst Deception spec and level him to 75. Today I just copied Krea's talent tree he made in his new video, and used it to buy first set peace (so I only watch a minute of the video) and want into doing my first few WZs. I used to think my Combat Sentinal was bursty this thing drops people as if they are level 60, and you are 75 in WZ when you start the rotation from stealth. Anyways I am sure I am not doing the correct rotation. Its bursty as an exploding super nova. Now I have not leveled my Combat Sentinel, but my Eng Sniper does not burst people in 5-10 secs the most. I think in one WZ I did 5.5k dps the most, but I like objectives and did not have any regz arenas.

Edited by limenutpen
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