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Your take on The Sith Order and the Jedi Order!


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most of the things you pointed out are similar/the same to countries before Third Reich and to those that were functioning during reign of the Third Reich, with exception for 1k reich and colour scheme - and everything thqat just for better sales. Nothing really more original about it,

 

whole shortcut "nazi" is wrong and by all means ( but of course I like very much war machinery of the Reich, one of the most beautiful uniforms and tank models ) I do not support socialism in any form, if Sith Empire was socialistic then I would probably be completely uniterested in story. Other points you mentioned are completely fine and required for a strong, advancing country that seeks to further it borders. Sith Empire does not trust outsiders and all kind of aliens which is natural and fine ( it is not inside extermination based on ethnicity and relligion ).. You all like real life examples, but by that example you should mention that people of the Reich were happy with its course ah and Third Reich wasnt militaristic, if you look closer, its a myth. There wasnt also, what will be probably shocking to you antisemitism - there was anti-talmudic behaviour, but many of those things are currently forgotten and changed to sate those who like one sided history. and by all means I dont think that WW II origins or its aftermath are exactly place for this forums. but it is a huge exxageration to say that Sith Empire = Third Reich

I'm basically saying that authoritarian rule leads to atrocities such as the Holocaust. Which you seem to think is a good thing but I disagree, I see it as the unnecessary slaughter of innocents for the single purpose of self inflating those committing it. You also must understand that your points are baseless. The Nazi's where militaristic, how do you think they waged war on the rest of the world? Please back up your rash statements (like the Nazi's were not antisemitic despite killing 6 million Jews and being governed by a known antisemite) with evidence. And its not really a huge exaggeration to say the Sith Empire was grossly similar to the Third Reich, I just proved that. The fact they are both authoritarian dictatorships already puts them on the same plane. And yes they are similar to other nations other than Nazi Germany, correct. Such as the USSR and the Roman Empire, but guess what they all had in common? They wrought murder, mayhem and suffering on their people and eventually collapsed.

 

And I'm afraid it does have a place in the forums. As Star Wars is heavily based on historical events, heavily based. Not to mention the fact that you seem to think Lucas gives a coloured view of authoritarian dictatorships, so I have to look elsewhere and make comparison.

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@Maaurin. You make interesting points and I agree with your thoughts on democracy and that. Monarchies can work, but such rule centralizing powers in a single figure is dangerous. But on the topic of the Force:

 

I get the idea you agree that the Force seeks some form of balance between light and dark in the galaxy, but just because this is so doesn't mean we should accept it, for the dark side harms the galaxy in ways beyond the Force. And I would agree.

 

To be honest I'm not really sure what a Je'daii Order would entail, would partially accepting the dark side lead to suffering? I do not think so. Much like the Father the Jedi would be dedicated to harmony, peace and balance. They would be benevolent in nature but also willing to be practical, and make sacrifices if need be. Take a look at the Je'daii Code:

 

There is no ignorance; there is knowledge.

There is no fear; there is power.

I am the heart of the Force.

I am the revealing fire of light.

I am the mystery of darkness

In balance with chaos and harmony,

Immortal in the Force.

 

The first tenet is the same as that of the Jedi Order. The Je'daii would uphold knowledge just as the Jedi do, and provide wisdom to the Republic and other nations that strive for peace. It's the second power that could be dangerous, the Je'daii reject fear but embrace power. I don't really think I understand this code enough to comment. But power can mean many things, power in the Force, power through knowledge. I believe Je'daii can possess power without wanting power over others.

 

I'm at a crossroads here. The benefits of the Jedi are they are clearly protectors of peace and justice, dedicating to serving the Republic and defending the weak. But they attract threats from the Sith and others and bring them to the Republic. And they are caught in an eternal conflict with the Sith. The Je'daii Order are in balance with the Force, and so war between Force users is minimal. But they are not there to protect the Republic, it must learn to protect itself. They serve only as advisers.

 

I'm still leaning toward the Je'daii Order, perhaps combined with the ideals of the Baran Do Sages. A non-militant (that would be for the best) organisation that offers advice and instruction to institutes willing to uphold the peace. There primary purpose is to study the Force and use to guide their decisions and fuel the wisdom they give to the galaxy. Meditation is their primary purpose. And they quell Sith threats before they can begin. Non-military here is important. An organisation that does not focus heavily or at all on combat, and using the Force as a weapon is unlikely to cause students to grasp at power and want to dominate others by Force. Because unlike the Jedi they are completely dedicated to peace and pacifism. Pacifist force users are unlikely to turn Sith. Think of them as almost a secret society, dedicating to keeping peace in the galaxy, and working behind the scenes to ensure this happens.

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I'm basically saying that authoritarian rule leads to atrocities such as the Holocaust. Which you seem to think is a good thing but I disagree, I see it as the unnecessary slaughter of innocents for the single purpose of self inflating those committing it. You also must understand that your points are baseless. The Nazi's where militaristic, how do you think they waged war on the rest of the world? Please back up your rash statements (like the Nazi's were not antisemitic despite killing 6 million Jews and being governed by a known antisemite) with evidence. And its not really a huge exaggeration to say the Sith Empire was grossly similar to the Third Reich, I just proved that. The fact they are both authoritarian dictatorships already puts them on the same plane. And yes they are similar to other nations other than Nazi Germany, correct. Such as the USSR and the Roman Empire, but guess what they all had in common? They wrought murder, mayhem and suffering on their people and eventually collapsed.

 

And I'm afraid it does have a place in the forums. As Star Wars is heavily based on historical events, heavily based. Not to mention the fact that you seem to think Lucas gives a coloured view of authoritarian dictatorships, so I have to look elsewhere and make comparison.

 

people like to mention Shoah ( I dont like word holocaust used for it as it had better meaning before ) but also they forget that the easiest way to escapr from being killed was just a change of faith, Jews who became christians were living in the Third Reich and were never ever killed althou the same rule didnt apply for USA and their treatment of Japanese who could be christians, muslims or believers of judaism and still they were kept in camps. They were not militaristic, number of military equipment was much lesser than that of France, GB or other countries, they were simply a good soldiers, of course, near war numbers gew but it wasnt an explosion of arms. And if you would like to say that their every day was dedicated to militarism then it is true for every country of that period with is young paramilitaristic organisations. 6 million is a number that came from imagination as there was no record and it all came from testimony of those who were imprisoned and even employees of Aushwitz museum question those numbers, revisionists say it was max one million and most probably much more less, other say that there was no holocaust as a form of a selective extermination ( and in my country it is illegal to undermine it, funny thing ) so with that I must agree as lamb, Adolf Hitler many times said that he has nothing against Jewish people but their talmudic rituals as they were keeping themselves together without assimilating with others, they were alienating themselves and if you ever read Talmud then you would know why.. Antisemitism is a very good way to manipulate people into believing that the case was in people while it was in their relligion.

 

Same plane is not enough. comparing Third Reich and USSR is also bad. Third Reich cared about its citizens while USSR munched them into pieces, thanks to Lenin and then Stalin. Roman Empire, that is a problematic question, for sure Roman Empire provided many civilisation into many barbaric countries and allowed their citizens to lead rather smooth life. Even Slavery in Rome was very much restricted and described by law, but Roman Empire and slavery, it its another subject as slavery is not exactly economically profitable in longer run. Mayhem, murder and everything else, it is normal, common, people die, conflict is a natural state. But all of those, Roman Empire and USSR didnt fail because of their bad people treatment but because of economics and many more outside threats and what is funny lack of army in the Roman Empire case

 

of course that Lucas gave totally coloured vision.

Edited by Surinen
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people like to mention Shoah ( I dont like word holocaust used for it as it had better meaning before ) but also they forget that the easiest way to escapr from being killed was just a change of faith, Jews who became christians were living in the Third Reich and were never ever killed...

 

That's simply not true. The Nazies defined "jew" as a genetic way. something like "jews blood" and stuff.

 

Changing religion was only an option for "half Jews" = people with two jewish grandparents. And towards the end of the war they also thought about killing them all too.

 

Sorry for off-topic.

 

Edit: Oh, and Adolf Hitler said nothing against jews? Seriously. I'll dig up some quotes.. will only take a few minutes.

 

There are many other things wrong with what you wrote and I'm pretty sure your posts will get deleted soon.

 

Edit2: yeah, here you go http://www.mosaisk.com/auschwitz/Adolf-Hitler-about-the-Jews.php , I still hate to write about such things in a Star Wars forum.

 

So to everyone: 99% of what this guy says about the Third Reich is wrong.

Edited by Maaruin
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Your ignorance baffles me. How you could possibly think Darth Plagueis (ironically a Sith Lord and former master of the Emperor) is a simpleton I have no idea. And how you can possibly think that building a huge massive super-weapon that blows up planets is a good thing baffles me also. Its just a big fat blob that screams "blow me up, I represent all the repression, oppression, waste of resources and evil of the Empire" and what happened? It was blown sky high along with the rest of the inefficient Empire. You also obviously have a very inflated and misguided view of the capabilities of humans, when most of them are far less intelligent than the likes of the Gree, the Colicoids, the Muun and the Bothans (you for example). But that's OK as the Empire have learned the mistakes they've made in the past and are actually attempting to put aside their restrictive xenophobia and accept more aliens into their ranks - another step closer to enlightenment.

 

And for the record all Sith are power hungry. It's in the Sith Code: "through power I gain victory". Baras would be followed by a hundred other Sith and a hundred more. The Emperor's Wrath can put down as many of them as he likes. But that's not going to fill the vacuum is it? A vacuum that will eventually consume the Sith Empire entirely. Or the Republic will simply destroy them, they are after all losing the war.

 

You've also failed to tell me what the Galactic Empire did for the galaxy that was beneficial. That is because the answer is nothing. Nothing whatsoever, they didn't even bring peace. Turn your attention to the Galactic Civil War.

 

And finally, your hardly giving good publicity for the Empire. Your simply proving me right. That the Empire breeds selfish people who don't care about the lives or importance of others and are happy to go around killing people and committing mass genocide to maintain there own self-importance and power. But alas they are doomed to be toppled by the people they oppress and so will forever be heralded as how not to run a galaxy.

 

^^ That.

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That's simply not true. The Nazies defined "jew" as a genetic way. something like "jews blood" and stuff.

 

Changing religion was only an option for "half Jews" = people with two jewish grandparents. And towards the end of the war they also thought about killing them all too.

 

Sorry for off-topic.

well, few modern jewish docs say the same, that there are specific jewish dna and even jewish race althou in a different way then you said. well yes of course that Germans of those times said that Jews were inferior to Aryan race, just like any other but they didnt exactly plan on eliminating them, there is a lot of propaganda do it, one would thought that with time people gonna take those curtains down, but with every year there even more myths about evil nazis and their ways.

 

in fact every Jew could become christian, altho not everyone could become catholic, thats why they clinged to baptist church and were never sent to camp - dont you think that it looks "too good" for the sake of making holocaust a business ? near the end of war, evil germans thought that it will be cool to expire them all. sorry, I understand that grim stories are favourable and victimisation is very cool for public face but jews were no more victims than polish, russians, gypsies, czech or even homosexuals who were sent to camps.

 

and about killing, another great stuff, there was no gas rooms in any of those camps, in it is currently viewed as historical fact also quite not "hot" in news. there was no gas rooms in any of those, I mean gas chambers, I guess thats correct term. I dont know how Auberes grandfather went to something that didnt exist. Jews, like any other nationality were of course dying from lack of food and difficult encironment and for that thing alone people can claim that germans allowed them to die but holocaust as intentionally killing ? if there was no gas chambers?

http://rense.com/general53/aauz.htm

 

dont forget about Zionist Party operating within Third Reich

 

thats why I dont see to further seek similarities between Reich and Sith Empire, much better to make it similar to Roman Empire just for the sake of argument and preventions of "naziiiiiii".

 

as a person who favours Sith and their Empire I see order and stability within its ranks

Edited by Surinen
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I'm basically saying that authoritarian rule leads to atrocities such as the Holocaust. Which you seem to think is a good thing but I disagree, I see it as the unnecessary slaughter of innocents for the single purpose of self inflating those committing it. You also must understand that your points are baseless. The Nazi's where militaristic, how do you think they waged war on the rest of the world? Please back up your rash statements (like the Nazi's were not antisemitic despite killing 6 million Jews and being governed by a known antisemite) with evidence. And its not really a huge exaggeration to say the Sith Empire was grossly similar to the Third Reich, I just proved that. The fact they are both authoritarian dictatorships already puts them on the same plane. And yes they are similar to other nations other than Nazi Germany, correct. Such as the USSR and the Roman Empire, but guess what they all had in common? They wrought murder, mayhem and suffering on their people and eventually collapsed.

 

And I'm afraid it does have a place in the forums. As Star Wars is heavily based on historical events, heavily based. Not to mention the fact that you seem to think Lucas gives a coloured view of authoritarian dictatorships, so I have to look elsewhere and make comparison.

 

I've read nearly everything you and Aurbere said to this guy and you guys are completely right. It gives me a headache reading the ignorant and blind points made here by him. My advice is to give it up. Nothing you say is gonna change his mind. But I'm happy at least somebody tried to teach this anti-democracy guy a thing or two. My hat is off to you and Aurbere.

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people like to mention Shoah ( I dont like word holocaust used for it as it had better meaning before ) but also they forget that the easiest way to escapr from being killed was just a change of faith, Jews who became christians were living in the Third Reich and were never ever killed althou the same rule didnt apply for USA and their treatment of Japanese who could be christians, muslims or believers of judaism and still they were kept in camps. They were not militaristic, number of military equipment was much lesser than that of France, GB or other countries, they were simply a good soldiers, of course, near war numbers gew but it wasnt an explosion of arms. And if you would like to say that their every day was dedicated to militarism then it is true for every country of that period with is young paramilitaristic organisations. 6 million is a number that came from imagination as there was no record and it all came from testimony of those who were imprisoned and even employees of Aushwitz museum question those numbers, revisionists say it was max one million and most probably much more less, other say that there was no holocaust as a form of a selective extermination ( and in my country it is illegal to undermine it, funny thing ) so with that I must agree as lamb, Adolf Hitler many times said that he has nothing against Jewish people but their talmudic rituals as they were keeping themselves together without assimilating with others, they were alienating themselves and if you ever read Talmud then you would know why.. Antisemitism is a very good way to manipulate people into believing that the case was in people while it was in their relligion.

 

Same plane is not enough. comparing Third Reich and USSR is also bad. Third Reich cared about its citizens while USSR munched them into pieces, thanks to Lenin and then Stalin. Roman Empire, that is a problematic question, for sure Roman Empire provided many civilisation into many barbaric countries and allowed their citizens to lead rather smooth life. Even Slavery in Rome was very much restricted and described by law, but Roman Empire and slavery, it its another subject as slavery is not exactly economically profitable in longer run. Mayhem, murder and everything else, it is normal, common, people die, conflict is a natural state. But all of those, Roman Empire and USSR didnt fail because of their bad people treatment but because of economics and many more outside threats and what is funny lack of army in the Roman Empire case

 

of course that Lucas gave totally coloured vision.

Have you read Mein Kampf? Hitler openly attacks Jews. And I don't care how many died, I don't care if they only discriminated against certain Jews, the fact it lots of people were killed for baseless, ridiculous reasons. They were not a threat and yet they were exterminated? Why? Because Germany needed a scapegoat, something to direct there hate upon, a collective hate that will make them feel strong and unified, and make them loyal to the Nazis. And that's my point. In authoritarian dictatorships the leaders are obsessed with holding onto power and feel a need to control the people in anyway they can. So they use fear, hate etc etc. It happened in the USSR, it happened in Nazi Germany, Mao's China, the Roman Empire. It doesn't matter if there socialist, nationalist, like their people, hate their people, don't give a damn. The fact remains that when you focus so much power in a single individual, they abuse it, and the result it always mass genocide and suffering. Governments have killed more people than anything or anyone ever else has, and authoritarian dictatorships are always the main culprits. What is the purpose of a government that has know care for life other than themselves? What good can they bring ever? None.
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I've read nearly everything you and Aurbere said to this guy and you guys are completely right. It gives me a headache reading the ignorant and blind points made here by him. My advice is to give it up. Nothing you say is gonna change his mind. But I'm happy at least somebody tried to teach this anti-democracy guy a thing or two. My hat is off to you and Aurbere.

they didnt say anything spectacular, only that Sith are fighting so they will collapse, they are selfish etc. but in fact, only selfish people can build great things as they improve their own scenery. What they taught me is that a sentiment and being naive with "golden heart" is exactly what leads to weakness and decay of power. Galactic Empire was doomed from the beginning, Sith Empire, steered by Bioware has much more chances of survival.

 

Jedi, what are they doing, guardians of corruption that cannot fight it because of their code and council that is clearly delusional

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well, lets take the only point of your post which is true:

 

sorry, I understand that grim stories are favourable and victimisation is very cool for public face but jews were no more victims than polish, russians, gypsies, czech or even homosexuals who were sent to camps.

 

so, other peoples were enslaved and killed too. I fail to understand how that makes the Third Reich better. Actually, it makes it worse.

 

I really, really hope that not all those who support the Sith have real life opinions like you do.

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Have you read Mein Kampf? Hitler openly attacks Jews. And I don't care how many died, I don't care if they only discriminated against certain Jews, the fact it lots of people were killed for baseless, ridiculous reasons. They were not a threat and yet they were exterminated? Why? Because Germany needed a scapegoat, something to direct there hate upon, a collective hate that will make them feel strong and unified, and make them loyal to the Nazis. And that's my point. In authoritarian dictatorships the leaders are obsessed with holding onto power and feel a need to control the people in anyway they can. So they use fear, hate etc etc. It happened in the USSR, it happened in Nazi Germany, Mao's China, the Roman Empire. It doesn't matter if there socialist, nationalist, like their people, hate their people, don't give a damn. The fact remains that when you focus so much power in a single individual, they abuse it, and the result it always mass genocide and suffering. Governments have killed more people than anything or anyone ever else has, and authoritarian dictatorships are always the main culprits. What is the purpose of a government that has know care for life other than themselves? What good can they bring ever? None.

 

yes, I read it, quite a silly book really, diary of fantasta. they were not exterminated, not by gas for sure, but they were victims of hard labor in camps, that is true. and they were dangerous to a system where they didnt want to adapt if they were not a zionists, even other Jews looked down on those poor people, but faith was strong in them so they died for it, like many other believers of many relligions. It is not as Germans were mentally enslaved, but yes, certainly they were reminded of their fabricated roots and someone raised their patriotic spirits. Third Reich wasnt even in one tenth focused on hating Jews, they focused on progress, development, knowledge, that was a golden age of science. Individuals who have power rarely abuse it ( unless it is Africa ) and Hitler didnt exactly abused his power, he was what his country needed for that time.

Empires tend to expand, that is natural course for them and Sith Empire has a great potential to make galaxy a better place for everyone, even aliens. You were definately too much exposed to democracy propaganda to view rule of one man as a bad thing, altho it is never one man, usually monarch has ministers and advisors, experts that are chose because of their abilities not nepotism, thats what Sith Empire, experts on the Council, people who serve their Emperor loyally

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yes, I read it, quite a silly book really, diary of fantasta. they were not exterminated, not by gas for sure, but they were victims of hard labor in camps, that is true. and they were dangerous to a system where they didnt want to adapt if they were not a zionists, even other Jews looked down on those poor people, but faith was strong in them so they died for it, like many other believers of many relligions. It is not as Germans were mentally enslaved, but yes, certainly they were reminded of their fabricated roots and someone raised their patriotic spirits. Third Reich wasnt even in one tenth focused on hating Jews, they focused on progress, development, knowledge, that was a golden age of science. Individuals who have power rarely abuse it ( unless it is Africa ) and Hitler didnt exactly abused his power, he was what his country needed for that time.

Empires tend to expand, that is natural course for them and Sith Empire has a great potential to make galaxy a better place for everyone, even aliens. You were definately too much exposed to democracy propaganda to view rule of one man as a bad thing, altho it is never one man, usually monarch has ministers and advisors, experts that are chose because of their abilities not nepotism, thats what Sith Empire, experts on the Council, people who serve their Emperor loyally

 

Please be trolling, please be trolling, please be trolling, please be trolling, please be trolling, please be trolling, please be trolling, please be trolling, please be trolling, please be trolling...

 

Sorry, for me, as a German, all what he writes is horrible to read. I really hope he is from somewhere else and talks about thinks he knows nothing about.

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well, lets take the only point of your post which is true:

 

 

 

so, other peoples were enslaved and killed too. I fail to understand how that makes the Third Reich better. Actually, it makes it worse.

 

I really, really hope that not all those who support the Sith have real life opinions like you do.

the word "killed" makes a difference, they were not intentionally killed, their deaths were a product of a difficulties in a camp, food, hard work, lack of hygiene and many other things - but that was a common practise, I mean camps since history of wars

 

I justify progress and understand that you cannot avoid victims, if you want to break a spirit of a conquered nation, it depends on culture. Even Sith Empire is not exactly obliged to slaughter everyone, they can simply ask some smaller states to join them, if they refuse, attack them, then ask them, if they refuse, well, that is a beginning of a terror

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Please be trolling, please be trolling, please be trolling, please be trolling, please be trolling, please be trolling, please be trolling, please be trolling, please be trolling, please be trolling...

 

Sorry, for me, as a German, all what he writes is horrible to read. I really hope he is from somewhere else and talks about thinks he knows nothing about.

I know that current german education was nicely brainwashed about Third Reich to the limits but on the other hand, german education system, as a structure is from 1938, so it works. Many german old people are even afraid to remind Third Reich as something good, because it is politically incorrect. That is quite sad,so you think that Third Reich was mostly focused on hating jews, that is ridiculous

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Please be trolling, please be trolling, please be trolling, please be trolling, please be trolling, please be trolling, please be trolling, please be trolling, please be trolling, please be trolling...

 

Sorry, for me, as a German, all what he writes is horrible to read. I really hope he is from somewhere else and talks about thinks he knows nothing about.

I feel for you. :(

 

This guy is totally off the rails, he doesn't even have a point, he doesn't seem to understand that genocide is genocide no matter what the reasons or how much they focused on it, and its certainly not a good thing. And I'm tired of debating with him. Let's all just console ourselves with the knowledge that these kinds of governments never last and never will, but as much as he argues otherwise, people don't like oppression, murder and suffering. Go democracy! Go Republic! :sy_republic::)

 

Anyway, this debate over the ideals of the Sith & Galactic Empire's has regressed into god knows what. So lets get back on topic so the purpose of this thread isn't entirely sullied:

 

@Maaurin. You make interesting points and I agree with your thoughts on democracy and that. Monarchies can work, but such rule centralizing powers in a single figure is dangerous. But on the topic of the Force:

 

I get the idea you agree that the Force seeks some form of balance between light and dark in the galaxy, but just because this is so doesn't mean we should accept it, for the dark side harms the galaxy in ways beyond the Force. And I would agree.

 

To be honest I'm not really sure what a Je'daii Order would entail, would partially accepting the dark side lead to suffering? I do not think so. Much like the Father the Jedi would be dedicated to harmony, peace and balance. They would be benevolent in nature but also willing to be practical, and make sacrifices if need be. Take a look at the Je'daii Code:

 

There is no ignorance; there is knowledge.

There is no fear; there is power.

I am the heart of the Force.

I am the revealing fire of light.

I am the mystery of darkness

In balance with chaos and harmony,

Immortal in the Force.

 

The first tenet is the same as that of the Jedi Order. The Je'daii would uphold knowledge just as the Jedi do, and provide wisdom to the Republic and other nations that strive for peace. It's the second power that could be dangerous, the Je'daii reject fear but embrace power. I don't really think I understand this code enough to comment. But power can mean many things, power in the Force, power through knowledge. I believe Je'daii can possess power without wanting power over others.

 

I'm at a crossroads here. The benefits of the Jedi are they are clearly protectors of peace and justice, dedicating to serving the Republic and defending the weak. But they attract threats from the Sith and others and bring them to the Republic. And they are caught in an eternal conflict with the Sith. The Je'daii Order are in balance with the Force, and so war between Force users is minimal. But they are not there to protect the Republic, it must learn to protect itself. They serve only as advisers.

 

I'm still leaning toward the Je'daii Order, perhaps combined with the ideals of the Baran Do Sages. A non-militant (that would be for the best) organisation that offers advice and instruction to institutes willing to uphold the peace. There primary purpose is to study the Force and use to guide their decisions and fuel the wisdom they give to the galaxy. Meditation is their primary purpose. And they quell Sith threats before they can begin. Non-military here is important. An organisation that does not focus heavily or at all on combat, and using the Force as a weapon is unlikely to cause students to grasp at power and want to dominate others by Force. Because unlike the Jedi they are completely dedicated to peace and pacifism. Pacifist force users are unlikely to turn Sith. Think of them as almost a secret society, dedicating to keeping peace in the galaxy, and working behind the scenes to ensure this happens.

Thoughts?

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I know that current german education was nicely brainwashed about Third Reich to the limits but on the other hand, german education system, as a structure is from 1938, so it works. Many german old people are even afraid to remind Third Reich as something good, because it is politically incorrect. That is quite sad,so you think that Third Reich was mostly focused on hating jews, that is ridiculous

 

I very well know the Third Reich wasn't mostly focused on hating jews. But they hated jews enough to start a genocide* and they hated russions, polish etc. enough to plan a genocide.

 

*oh, and "no gas chambers"- sh*t doesn't matter about that, by the way. during the occupation easter europe they did it the old fashioned way by simply shooting them.

 

But I agree with Beniboybling, lets send this guy to Bogan and don't answer him anymore.

Edited by Maaruin
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Back on topic:

 

@Maaurin. You make interesting points and I agree with your thoughts on democracy and that. Monarchies can work, but such rule centralizing powers in a single figure is dangerous.

 

Yeah, democracy is basically the safer ways for countries to go. The Jedi decided to serve a promising democracy after all, but they also helped good monarchies. so, about the force.

 

I get the idea you agree that the Force seeks some form of balance between light and dark in the galaxy, but just because this is so doesn't mean we should accept it, for the dark side harms the galaxy in ways beyond the Force. And I would agree.

 

Yeah. As I said, I think maybe it is even possible to find some form of balance which holds almost the full potential of the light side and avoids most effects of the dark side.

 

To be honest I'm not really sure what a Je'daii Order would entail, would partially accepting the dark side lead to suffering? I do not think so. Much like the Father the Jedi would be dedicated to harmony, peace and balance.

 

That's a point where I think that many of those who advocate balance still have a chosen side underneath. I just read into the Dawn of the Jedi comicbooks again: (Almost) all warnings the Je'daii speak are warnings against the dark side, and as far as I see not a single one against the light side. During their time on Tython, the Je'daii seem to have realized that the dark side is more dangerous.

 

I think many of those who advacate balance tend lean towards one side or the other. The Father leaned towards the light side. My balanced Jedi Consular leans toward the dark side (he supports Rajivari's philosophy), but you can't say that out loud when you are member of the Jedi Council.

 

About those who fall to the dark side too far, I'm not sure if the Je'daii way is the better. The Jedi seem to have healers etc. who are dedicated to bring them back from the dark side. The Je'daii often seem to say "Help yourself, but get out of here (to the moon)."

 

They would be benevolent in nature but also willing to be practical, and make sacrifices if need be. Take a look at the Je'daii Code:

 

There is no ignorance; there is knowledge.

There is no fear; there is power.

I am the heart of the Force.

I am the revealing fire of light.

I am the mystery of darkness

In balance with chaos and harmony,

Immortal in the Force.

 

The first tenet is the same as that of the Jedi Order. The Je'daii would uphold knowledge just as the Jedi do, and provide wisdom to the Republic and other nations that strive for peace. It's the second power that could be dangerous, the Je'daii reject fear but embrace power. I don't really think I understand this code enough to comment. But power can mean many things, power in the Force, power through knowledge. I believe Je'daii can possess power without wanting power over others.

 

I think the Je'daii code is even less meant as a guidline for actions than the Jedi code. It is a mystic text to meditate on, which will help you to find inner balance and reflect the balance to the world.

 

So every Je'daii has to come up with his own interpretation of these lines, I guess. *shrug*

 

All in all, I'd prefer some text which clearly states the goals, something like this:

 

Jedi are the guardians of peace in the galaxy.

Jedi use their powers to defend and protect, never to attack others.

Jedi respect all life, in any form.

Jedi serve others, rather than rule over them, for the good of the galaxy.

Jedi seek to improve themselves through knowledge and training.

 

 

I'm at a crossroads here. The benefits of the Jedi are they are clearly protectors of peace and justice, dedicating to serving the Republic and defending the weak. But they attract threats from the Sith and others and bring them to the Republic. And they are caught in an eternal conflict with the Sith. The Je'daii Order are in balance with the Force, and so war between Force users is minimal. But they are not there to protect the Republic, it must learn to protect itself. They serve only as advisers.

 

Unfortunatly, I think even the Je'daii order wouldn't be able to prevent Dark Side threats. They lived in peace so long because the Rakata didn't know about them.

I even think that the Rakata - Je'daii war was what motivated them to rethink their devotion to balance.

 

I'm still leaning toward the Je'daii Order, perhaps combined with the ideals of the Baran Do Sages. A non-militant (that would be for the best) organisation that offers advice and instruction to institutes willing to uphold the peace. There primary purpose is to study the Force and use to guide their decisions and fuel the wisdom they give to the galaxy. Meditation is their primary purpose. And they quell Sith threats before they can begin. Non-military here is important. An organisation that does not focus heavily or at all on combat, and using the Force as a weapon is unlikely to cause students to grasp at power and want to dominate others by Force. Because unlike the Jedi they are completely dedicated to peace and pacifism. Pacifist force users are unlikely to turn Sith. Think of them as almost a secret society, dedicating to keeping peace in the galaxy, and working behind the scenes to ensure this happens.[/color]

 

Actually, I think there should be several organizations, as long as some of them are balanced and some of them are light side.

 

But I don't think all of them should be pacifists. Organizations like the Imperial Knights would do their part in preserving peace and justice for the nation they serve.

Edited by Maaruin
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Alright: let's leave that awful debate with Surinen behind and get back on topic. :D

yes, about ongoing discussion, as much as I like Jeeeedaaay code I dislike Marun's concept of pacifists, one to be a pacifist, in males case of human species, must have a visible deficit of testosterone. Pacifism is the weakness and if the Jeeedaaaay would remain this way then every victim of the Republic would be on their hands as they, with their power didnt engage.

 

a perfect solution to this situation would be a current state of Jeedaay who would form a Dominion with its Master as a leader of council and whole political being. They would send their Jeeeedaaay knights in pairs, one follower of Ashla, Ashlan, anyway that lion from Narnia and the other one follower of Bogan, the first one would lead mediation, if it failed then Bogan would simply cut them into pieces

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yes, about ongoing discussion, as much as I like Jeeeedaaay code I dislike Marun's concept of pacifists, one to be a pacifist, in males case of human species, must have a visible deficit of testosterone. Pacifism is the weakness and if the Jeeedaaaay would remain this way then every victim of the Republic would be on their hands as they, with their power didnt engage.

 

a perfect solution to this situation would be a current state of Jeedaay who would form a Dominion with its Master as a leader of council and whole political being. They would send their Jeeeedaaay knights in pairs, one follower of Ashla, Ashlan, anyway that lion from Narnia and the other one follower of Bogan, the first one would lead mediation, if it failed then Bogan would simply cut them into pieces

 

Actually, I'm not necessarily advocating pacifism. I'm ok with:

 

"Jedi use their powers to defend and protect." instead of "Jedi use their powers to defend and protect, never to attack others."

 

I'm fine with cutting Sith into pieces when necessary, but I prefer to only incapacitate them and then lead them to the light side.

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Hmmm, I think the Force is inherently light side. That is at least what the Prophecy of the Chosen One says. Its sort of 70% light, 30% dark. But the Je'daii Order need to find some sort of middle ground to maintain balance in the Force, basically wherever the Father was on the spectrum. A sort of 'gray Jedi'. Just did some reading on gray Jedi and its seems that many of the Gray used both sides of the Force. They were more attuned the light but used the dark side, but were free from dark side corruption, they did not fully embrace it. Jolee Bindo for example could use force lightning without being corrupted and did so by controlling his emotions but not blocking them out. A form of 'Electric Judgement'. The Je'daii Order would be gray Jedi.

 

I also think having several force sects would be dangerous, as many might turn to the dark side or cause imbalance. You need a single, unified body that believes in the same code in order to achieve balance.

 

What would there code of goals be? Something like this:

 

Je'daii are the guardians of peace and harmony in the galaxy.

Je'daii use their powers meditate and reflect, never for violence.

Je'daii use their knowledge to advise and guide.

Je'daii respect all life, in any form.

Je'daii serve only the Force, light and dark, and maintain its balance.

Je'daii seek to achieve wisdom through knowledge and understanding.

 

They are dedicated to upholding peace and harmony in the galaxy, yet do so through meditation and reflection. Garnering knowledge they use it to advise peace upholding forces in the galaxy and encourage them down a path of further peace.

 

And this is how I believe they would interpret the various Jedi Codes:

 

There is no ignorance or fear, there is knowledge.

There is emotion, yet peace.

There is passion, yet serenity.

There is chaos, yet harmony.

There is only the Force.

 

They recognise the importance of knowledge and understanding, it drives out dangerous fear of the unknown and ignorance of it. They embrace emotion, passion and chaos, but control it and so achieve peace, serenity and harmony. They understand there is no light or dark, only the Force.

 

Thoughts?

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Hmmm, I think the Force is inherently light side. That is at least what the Prophecy of the Chosen One says. Its sort of 70% light, 30% dark. But the Je'daii Order need to find some sort of middle ground to maintain balance in the Force, basically wherever the Father was on the spectrum. A sort of 'gray Jedi'. Just did some reading on gray Jedi and its seems that many of the Gray used both sides of the Force. They were more attuned the light but used the dark side, but were free from dark side corruption, they did not fully embrace it. Jolee Bindo for example could use force lightning without being corrupted and did so by controlling his emotions but not blocking them out. A form of 'Electric Judgement'. The Je'daii Order would be gray Jedi.

 

Yeah, I can agree on that. In this case balance means something slightly different from balance between light and darkness.

 

I also think having several force sects would be dangerous, as many might turn to the dark side or cause imbalance. You need a single, unified body that believes in the same code in order to achieve balance.

 

Hm, I'm not sure if that's a good idea. I think different Force sects is worth the risk.

 

What would there code of goals be? Something like this:

 

Je'daii are the guardians of peace and harmony in the galaxy.

Je'daii use their powers meditate and reflect, never for violence.

Je'daii use their knowledge to advise and guide.

Je'daii respect all life, in any form.

Je'daii serve only the Force, light and dark, and maintain its balance.

Je'daii seek to achieve wisdom through knowledge and understanding.

 

They are dedicated to upholding peace and harmony in the galaxy, yet do so through meditation and reflection. Garnering knowledge they use it to advise peace upholding forces in the galaxy and encourage them down a path of further peace.

 

Then they should at least allow people to be trained in the Je'daii Order and then return to their homeworld and serve as knights. Force users in fighting roles are much more capable to face some threats than non-Force-users are.

The Je'daii would keep watch over them and call them back if they think they are too close to falling to the dark side.

 

And this is how I believe they would interpret the various Jedi Codes:

 

There is no ignorance or fear, there is knowledge.

There is emotion, yet peace.

There is passion, yet serenity.

There is chaos, yet harmony.

There is only the Force.

 

They recognise the importance of knowledge and understanding, it drives out dangerous fear of the unknown and ignorance of it. They embrace emotion, passion and chaos, but control it and so achieve peace, serenity and harmony. They understand there is no light or dark, only the Force.

 

Thoughts?[/color]

 

Hmm, I'm not sure about the first line... since "the wise knows nothing but seeks knowledge", maybe the old Ignorance, yet knowledge. would still be better.

 

Also, I like the line "There is no death, there is only the Force."... can't we keep it somehow?

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Yeah, I can agree on that. In this case balance means something slightly different from balance between light and darkness.

 

Hm, I'm not sure if that's a good idea. I think different Force sects is worth the risk.

 

Then they should at least allow people to be trained in the Je'daii Order and then return to their homeworld and serve as knights. Force users in fighting roles are much more capable to face some threats than non-Force-users are.

The Je'daii would keep watch over them and call them back if they think they are too close to falling to the dark side.

 

Hmm, I'm not sure about the first line... since "the wise knows nothing but seeks knowledge", maybe the old Ignorance, yet knowledge. would still be better.

 

Also, I like the line "There is no death, there is only the Force."... can't we keep it somehow?

I not really sure if many Force sects bring enough, or anything to the table. They can fulfil different roles yes, but the Je'daii Order can have sects within its organisation. And I'm still sticking with the pacifism part, the Je'daii Order are not protectors of the galaxy, but peacekeepers. If they advocate violence they go against everything they stand for, and risk falling to the dark side. This is because as soon as you start learning to use the Force as a weapon, it becomes dangerous because you have to make the choice of how to use it. By the way of the light, or the darkness. Not sure what you mean by your last point though about the first line.

 

I suppose the final line is also important... so Je'daii don't attempt to prevent their deaths as they study the Force.

 

How about:

 

There is no ignorance, there is knowledge.

There is no death, there is the Force.

There is emotion, yet peace.

There is passion, yet serenity.

There is chaos, yet harmony.

There is light, yet dark.

There is only the Force.

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I not really sure if many Force sects bring enough, or anything to the table. They can fulfil different roles yes, but the Je'daii Order can have sects within its organisation. And I'm still sticking with the pacifism part, the Je'daii Order are not protectors of the galaxy, but peacekeepers. If they advocate violence they go against everything they stand for, and risk falling to the dark side. This is because as soon as you start learning to use the Force as a weapon, it becomes dangerous because you have to make the choice of how to use it. By the way of the light, or the darkness. Not sure what you mean by your last point though about the first line.

 

I suppose the final line is also important... so Je'daii don't attempt to prevent their deaths as they study the Force.

 

How about:

 

There is no ignorance, there is knowledge.

There is no death, there is the Force.

There is emotion, yet peace.

There is passion, yet serenity.

There is chaos, yet harmony.

There is light, yet dark.

There is only the Force.

 

I think being pacifists wouldn't guarantee they stay away from the dark side. Some Jedi have fallen to the dark side through... wait for it... meditation.

 

Imagine something like the Krath Cult takes over a system. A few Force-using knights could infiltrate the palace and take them prisoner without causing too much casulties.

And if every military would have some Je'daii among the troops, they could prevent war crimes from occuring.

Je'daii in police functions will help capturing dangerous criminals alive and without too great risks.

 

And if two planets decide to fight each other, but the Je'daii in the troops of both planets go to the battlefield and start negotiating with each other, they might prevent the war better than advisors could.

 

The line about ignorance and knowledge is: There actually is ignorance. You should encourage young Je'daii to admit their ignorance and try to gain knowledge.

 

also: There is light, yet darkness. ;)

 

But I'm cool with different sub-oders in the Je'daii Order.

Edited by Maaruin
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