Who's bad idea was about posion killing in arena? I lost 4 games when all my team mates were alive but enemie's stealther waited in stealth up to the end and WON the fight thanks to dirty tricks. Stealthers in this game have much advantages over other specs during acid. Sins are staying on mid in stealth and waiting until poison hits, they use vanish in perfect time which allows them to stay on mid more, and then they loss (kite) enemie team on other side with overcharged saber and saber reflect. Some dirty tricks are using opers (same with vanish and utility on it) and mass blind. What iam trying to say is that it's unfair that a team who worked so hard to kill the enemie team looses just because of one guy who is lucky to play on stealth class lol, and that teams are forced to sit all arena time instead of finishing their fight fast and queueing fore more fights just because one guy is hidding somewhere. One player musnt be able to win 3/4 players...this is nonsense. Thats why WOW has stealth detectors on arena which appear after some time have passed.

Pls.stop stealthers domination and abucing...it's nonsense.

While I completely agree people stealthing out in arenas when they are the only one left vs 3 or 4 and make everybody lose some time are annoying, they are not broken.

I have never seen 1 single stealther win in acid vs 3 or 4 . Every single time I saw an op or sin try it (I have seen it quite a lot) he got obliterated at the end. It is pretty easy to counter them.

Even tho I don't think it will happen, random stealth scans appearing when someone is just hiding and no fighting is going on could be entertaining.

Who's bad idea was about posion killing in arena? I lost 4 games when all my team mates were alive but enemie's stealther waited in stealth up to the end and WON the fight thanks to dirty tricks. Stealthers in this game have much advantages over other specs during acid. Sins are staying on mid in stealth and waiting until poison hits, they use vanish in perfect time which allows them to stay on mid more, and then they loss (kite) enemie team on other side with overcharged saber and saber reflect. Some dirty tricks are using opers (same with vanish and utility on it) and mass blind. What iam trying to say is that it's unfair that a team who worked so hard to kill the enemie team looses just because of one guy who is lucky to play on stealth class lol, and that teams are forced to sit all arena time instead of finishing their fight fast and queueing fore more fights just because one guy is hidding somewhere. One player musnt be able to win 3/4 players...this is nonsense. Thats why WOW has stealth detectors on arena which appear after some time have passed.

 

Pls.stop stealthers domination and abucing...it's nonsense.

Thats like saying back in Vietnam war, Asking the Vietcong, Please do not set booby traps in the forest that will kill and maim our American soldiers, that are trying to Kill and maim your soldiers. LOL

So you should retract your complaint. Just saying......

I can see the op a bit but Really sins..... your complaining about Sin's. Here's a secret a Sin stealth's on you just Sneeze or fart hell even the miasma of bioware's epic failure to actually balance the game will pop a Sin outa stealth. Got a dot use it that will pop him/her out, our cloak is the weakest defensive ability we have because 99% of the time it don't work!. A sin cloaks I hit lacerate (AOE MELEE) pops them 99% of the time!

Look I get having 4 vs 1 and loosing sucks been there when an Operative did it to my team. But its a valid method of winning. So in the real world if the other team is great at passing the football you gonna ban passing just to make it fair because your team can't stop their QB? Really, that's your genius idea? Let me guess you got a lot of participation trophies and never experienced what it was like to loose.

I actually saw multiple times people succeed with the stealth trick in basically every arena except for tatooine. I think the sudden death should remain the same less the dmg. Meaning: Healing disabled (or constantly getting reduced), stealth disabled, but no damaging ticks. Will stop stealth cheating and sorc barriers (the after effect) at once. And also when implementing this change, maybe make the could instant on the whole area immediately, to reduce the advantage that stealthers might still have for keeping the ability to heal a bit longer.

How is stealth cheating? it is using an ability we have! It's a strategic move sure as hell don't rise to the level of cheating!

While I completely agree people stealthing out in arenas when they are the only one left vs 3 or 4 and make everybody lose some time are annoying, they are not broken.

 

I have never seen 1 single stealther win in acid vs 3 or 4 . Every single time I saw an op or sin try it (I have seen it quite a lot) he got obliterated at the end. It is pretty easy to counter them.

 

Even tho I don't think it will happen, random stealth scans appearing when someone is just hiding and no fighting is going on could be entertaining.

If a sin pulls it off its because he got really,really, really, really, lucky however, I have seen Operatives do this.

Look I get having 4 vs 1 and loosing sucks been there when an Operative did it to my team. But its a valid method of winning. So in the real world if the other team is great at passing the football you gonna ban passing just to make it fair because your team can't stop their QB? Really, that's your genius idea? Let me guess you got a lot of participation trophies and never experienced what it was like to loose.

I suppose you would say the same about sorc bubble if it worked in acid? Because as far as I recall it used to work and it was changed because people realized this is an unfair advantage. Unlike real-life, MMOs should attempt to prevent all unfair advantages between different classes and players (this is also the reason GCD is 1.5s and not 0.5s, basically this is where difference in latency (on the same side of earth with a good internet) is no longer a factor of distance, to make things fair for players from everywhere. According to your philosophy, people with 0ms should beat people with 88ms (same internet, different distance) for having a far better response time and squeezing more abilities in less time.

Everyone complains about class imbalance, you are the 1st who actually attempts to justify it...

How is stealth cheating? it is using an ability we have! It's a strategic move sure as hell don't rise to the level of cheating!

I don't say it is a bannable/punishable cheat, but I have faced and recorded a few groups who just fight without healing and die because the healer chose to stealth out and beat everyone with the acid. This clearly was not what acid is made for. In fact, it is the opposite, acid was created to prevent stealth trolling and infinite healings. So while I don't say to ban or punish those who take advantage of a currently exploitable situation (just as punishing snipers who used to take certain covers in certain warzones wouldn't be fair), I do say the situation needs to stop being exploitable (just as the covers were removed).

I can see the op a bit but Really sins..... your complaining about Sin's. Here's a secret a Sin stealth's on you just Sneeze or fart hell even the miasma of bioware's epic failure to actually balance the game will pop a Sin outa stealth. Got a dot use it that will pop him/her out, our cloak is the weakest defensive ability we have because 99% of the time it don't work!. A sin cloaks I hit lacerate (AOE MELEE) pops them 99% of the time!

Unlike an operative a sin is immune to sniper probe, force storm, all kinds of knockbacks and aoe stuns and mezzes while stealthing out. That is because sin stealth triggers force shroud, which is anti-force/tech, and operative stealth triggers evasion which is anti-melee/ranged. You said "lacerate" gets the sin but juggernaut slam will get the operative and not the sin, same will the jugg intimidating roar (mezz), freeze (cooldown-less aoe), inquisiotr/merc/sniper push (jugg cant target you anyway), sniper and operative aoes (except for suppressive fire), Powertech aoes, merc's death from above and sin-tank wither and discharge. all of these will hit the operative and not the assassin.

I don't understand what you meant about the dot because stealthout cleanses sins too, and while in stealth you cant target them to dot-spread (and all dot-spreads won't work either, maybe except for sins who spread with lacerate). That or you simply forgot to use the utility which activates shroud on stealth out (in which case thats really useless, but same goes for operative who doesnt pick the mirror utility). If you use the Disjunction utility you get 4 seconds of force shroud when you go stealth, that's enough to cross a full plasma probe from one side to the other without getting popped (though the "resist" will put you in combat).

Since there are still things that can hit you (like lacerate), the best way to stealth out with the sin is in the 1st half second of force speed which then leaves you 2 seconds of speed to get any direction you want without them knowing (making aoe's which are meant to detect you much harder to target, almost as good as operative rolling), and you spend already 0.5s to get out of melee distance before the stealth is hit (changing direction as soon as you hit the stealth is a sure way to make the enemy stealth scan be harmlessly in front of you ), I rarely get caught when I stealth with my sin, and in fact I did, once, win an acid victory with it (but it wasn't the trolling type, because my group died 10 seconds before acid came)

Also, make sure you don't guard before you hit the stealth, of course...

OP The upside is you had some "real" matches in solo that didn't include "throwers and friends".

So losing wasn't all bad.

I suppose you would say the same about sorc bubble if it worked in acid? Because as far as I recall it used to work and it was changed because people realized this is an unfair advantage. Unlike real-life, MMOs should attempt to prevent all unfair advantages between different classes and players (this is also the reason GCD is 1.5s and not 0.5s, basically this is where difference in latency (on the same side of earth with a good internet) is no longer a factor of distance, to make things fair for players from everywhere. According to your philosophy, people with 0ms should beat people with 88ms (same internet, different distance) for having a far better response time and squeezing more abilities in less time.

Everyone complains about class imbalance, you are the 1st who actually attempts to justify it...

 

I don't say it is a bannable/punishable cheat, but I have faced and recorded a few groups who just fight without healing and die because the healer chose to stealth out and beat everyone with the acid. This clearly was not what acid is made for. In fact, it is the opposite, acid was created to prevent stealth trolling and infinite healings. So while I don't say to ban or punish those who take advantage of a currently exploitable situation (just as punishing snipers who used to take certain covers in certain warzones wouldn't be fair), I do say the situation needs to stop being exploitable (just as the covers were removed).

 

Unlike an operative a sin is immune to sniper probe, force storm, all kinds of knockbacks and aoe stuns and mezzes while stealthing out. That is because sin stealth triggers force shroud, which is anti-force/tech, and operative stealth triggers evasion which is anti-melee/ranged. You said "lacerate" gets the sin but juggernaut slam will get the operative and not the sin, same will the jugg intimidating roar (mezz), freeze (cooldown-less aoe), inquisiotr/merc/sniper push (jugg cant target you anyway), sniper and operative aoes (except for suppressive fire), Powertech aoes, merc's death from above and sin-tank wither and discharge. all of these will hit the operative and not the assassin.

I don't understand what you meant about the dot because stealthout cleanses sins too, and while in stealth you cant target them to dot-spread (and all dot-spreads won't work either, maybe except for sins who spread with lacerate). That or you simply forgot to use the utility which activates shroud on stealth out (in which case thats really useless, but same goes for operative who doesnt pick the mirror utility). If you use the Disjunction utility you get 4 seconds of force shroud when you go stealth, that's enough to cross a full plasma probe from one side to the other without getting popped (though the "resist" will put you in combat).

Since there are still things that can hit you (like lacerate), the best way to stealth out with the sin is in the 1st half second of force speed which then leaves you 2 seconds of speed to get any direction you want without them knowing (making aoe's which are meant to detect you much harder to target, almost as good as operative rolling), and you spend already 0.5s to get out of melee distance before the stealth is hit (changing direction as soon as you hit the stealth is a sure way to make the enemy stealth scan be harmlessly in front of you ), I rarely get caught when I stealth with my sin, and in fact I did, once, win an acid victory with it (but it wasn't the trolling type, because my group died 10 seconds before acid came)

Also, make sure you don't guard before you hit the stealth, of course...

You might actually want to play sin so you can learn we are not immune to sniper probe, force storm, all kinds of knockbacks and aoe stuns and mezzes while stealthing out FACT! All those things will pop a sin outa stealth! Where in the 9 hells you got that info is just plain wrong. Maybe if a sin spent a utility point in dark stability which grants 6 secs of stun immunity however, it should be noted that is an utter waste of the ability especially if you have retaliatory grip, you can't reflect attacks if you stealth out and a good sin won't do that! Also going into stealth DOES NOT CLEANSE a dot UNLESS that sin has wasted a utility for it. Most will not give up Dark stability or emersion for the 2 sec shroud. You seem to think sin are invulnerable when we stealth out its just not the case Every ability that you listed will pop a sin outa stealth. What ability grants immunity to all these abilities you list??? It sounds like your key bindings need work if it's taking that long to fire off an AOE.

You might actually want to play sin so you can learn we are not immune to sniper probe, force storm, all kinds of knockbacks and aoe stuns and mezzes while stealthing out FACT! All those things will pop a sin outa stealth! Where in the 9 hells you got that info is just plain wrong. Maybe if a sin spent a utility point in dark stability which grants 6 secs of stun immunity however, it should be noted that is an utter waste of the ability especially if you have retaliatory grip, you can't reflect attacks if you stealth out and a good sin won't do that! Also going into stealth DOES NOT CLEANSE a dot UNLESS that sin has wasted a utility for it. Most will not give up Dark stability or emersion for the 2 sec shroud. You seem to think sin are invulnerable when we stealth out its just not the case Every ability that you listed will pop a sin outa stealth. What ability grants immunity to all these abilities you list???It sounds like your key bindings need work if it's taking that long to fire off an AOE.

I main a sin, 2 sins in fact, Darkness and Deception and now you actually admitted you made a very poor choice of utlities and didn't take the one force-shroud upon force cloak known as "Shroud of Madness".

Well, of course, all sins need to take that utility unless they plan to use the actual force shroud every time they stealth out! This makes all dots and slows and roots disappear (some buffs such as blood boiler remain, but it doesn't hurt you unless you take a new dot) and grants you immunity for all force/tech (which are all the abilities that I listed) for 2 seconds (4 if you also take the Disjunction utility) which is enough time to get out of any aoe currently present in your location and run far away using force speed, so they don't know which way you ran and can't aoe you out once your 4s are over.

Do you think operatives are immune in stealth? Well here is a news flash: they gotta pick a utility for it too (evasive screen) and then it also stays for only 2s!! Operative immunity is vs range/melee, which means anything that won't hit the sin will hit them, and vise versa: things like lacerate (melee) will hit a sin but not them. So there is no difference in "utility cost" for stealth being effective.

Now as for which stealth is usually more effective: let me also inform u that sin stealth out can have a cd of 1m15s with the proper utility while the operative can have a minimum of 1m30s, and these seconds make the difference a lot of time. As I said in my previous post most aoes are force/tech and will hit operatives and not sins. In addition, many force/tech abilities have a delay before the hit while most melee/range (with the exception of all saber throws) have 0 travel time, that means that you might stealth out while a force/tech ability is traveling (grenade in the air, heatseeker missiles flying, etc.) but it is very unlikely to happen with melee/range abilities. In such cases, your operative will take the hit from that attack which was launched prior to stealing and immediately un-stealth only 0.3s after he wasted his cd (and it just happened to me with my operative), the assassin, however, will resist the hit due to the force shroud and remain stealthy. Same will even go for sticky grenades if your shroud lasts 4 seconds, they will explode with it still active and u will be stealth, unlike operative who have no way to avoid that dmg for exposing him (and no, sticky grenades are un-purgeable).

About the reflect: you seem to say "waste a utility" a lot so lemme tell you reflect is a total waste for a sin DPS (you still take all the damage normally, but the attacker also takes 50%, yaaaaaay.....), and while arguable about tanks (because they are defensive and reflect 100% of the original damage, so the attacker takes more dmg than u this time) I recommend spending utilities more defensively for them. So "you can't reflect attacks if you stealth out and a good sin won't do that!" couldn't be more wrong. Choosing reflect instead of stealth when stealth is needed is what a good sin would never do...

So instead of you telling me to play a sin (which I do a lot), lemme tell you to play a sin PROPERLY (which you admitted you don't) using the utilities: "Shroud of madness" and "disjunction" to actually make stealth out useful, using "fade" to make it useful often, using "emersion" because you seem to mix things up and not remember it is actually about force-speed breaking roots and slows, definitely NOT using retaliatory grip for DPS and instead using (beside disjunction) either "phasing phantasm" (for additional root breaker + defensive force speed which is a gr8 dmg mitigation with a cd of 15 secs only) or "reaper's rush" (for deception, which already relys on stride for offensive, so make it even more offensive and possibly reduce cd). Of course "avoidance" because all abilities in there better have shorter cd possible and I will leave the few rest up to you, and good luck.

[Do tell me what utilities you are currently using, just so I know where exactly were you standing when you said what you said]

EDIT1: Clarification in case I wasn't clear enough: NO-ONE is immune to anything while in stealth regardless of his utilities, neither operatives nor assassins. All immunities above are for the few 2s or 4s after you use combat stealth!!

You might actually want to play sin so you can learn we are not immune to sniper probe, force storm, all kinds of knockbacks and aoe stuns and mezzes while stealthing out FACT! All those things will pop a sin outa stealth! Where in the 9 hells you got that info is just plain wrong. Maybe if a sin spent a utility point in dark stability which grants 6 secs of stun immunity however, it should be noted that is an utter waste of the ability especially if you have retaliatory grip, you can't reflect attacks if you stealth out and a good sin won't do that! Also going into stealth DOES NOT CLEANSE a dot UNLESS that sin has wasted a utility for it. Most will not give up Dark stability or emersion for the 2 sec shroud. You seem to think sin are invulnerable when we stealth out its just not the case Every ability that you listed will pop a sin outa stealth. What ability grants immunity to all these abilities you list??? It sounds like your key bindings need work if it's taking that long to fire off an AOE.

spoiler alert, both Retaliatory Grip and Dark Stability are bad/not worth it.

You should go with something like this:

Tier1: Avoidance & Electric Bindings

Tier2: Fade & Obfuscation

Tier3: Shroud of Madness & Emersion

Tier4: Phasing Phantasm

This leaves you with 1 utility point, either Haunted Dreams from tier3 or Disjunction from tier4

im not saying those all utilities are the perfect ones, but im pretty certain they are better than Retaliatory Grip and Dark Stability

I main a sin, 2 sins in fact, Darkness and Deception and now you actually admitted you made a very poor choice of utlities Really I chose something that caters to my style of play and its WRONG! This is YOUR OPINION and one I really don't share. and didn't take the one force-shroud upon force cloak known as "Shroud of Madness".

 

Well, of course, all sins need to take that utility (AGAIN YOUR OPINION) unless they plan to use the actual force shroud every time they stealth out! This makes all dots and slows and roots disappear (some buffs such as blood boiler remain, but it doesn't hurt you unless you take a new dot) and grants you immunity for all force/tech (which are all the abilities that I listed) for 2 seconds (WRONG its grants and I quote "Purges all hostile removable effects and increases your CHANCE to resist force and tech attacks by 200% for 3 sec.s" (4 if you also take the Disjunction utility) which is enough time to get out of any aoe currently present in your location and run far away using force speed, so they don't know which way you ran and can't aoe you out once your 4s are over.

 

Do you think operatives are immune in stealth? DON"T CARE Well here is a news flash: they gotta pick a utility for it too (evasive screen) and then it also stays for only 2s!! Operative immunity is vs range/melee, which means anything that won't hit the sin will hit them, and vise versa: things like lacerate (melee) will hit a sin but not them. So there is no difference in "utility cost" for stealth being effective.

 

Now as for which stealth is usually more effective: let me also inform u that sin stealth out can have a cd of 1m15s with the proper utility while the operative can have a minimum of 1m30s, and these seconds make the difference a lot of time. As I said in my previous post most aoes are force/tech and will hit operatives and not sins (IF THEY HAVE SHROUD OF MADNESS). In addition, many force/tech abilities have a delay before they hit while most melee/range (with the exception of all saber throws) have 0 travel time, that means that you might stealth out while a force/tech ability is traveling (grenade in the air, heatseeker missiles flying, etc.) but it is very unlikely to happen with melee/range abilities. In such cases, your operative will take the hit from that attack which was launched prior to stealing and immediately un-stealth only 0.3s after he wasted his cd (and it just happened to me with my operative), the assassin, however, will resist the hit due to the force shroud and remain stealthy. Same will even go for sticky grenades if your shroud lasts 4 seconds, they will explode with it still active and u will be stealth, unlike operative who have no way to avoid that dmg for exposing him (and no, sticky grenades are un-purgeable).

 

About the reflect: you seem to say "waste a utility" a lot so lemme tell you reflect is a total waste for a sin DPS (you still take all the damage normally, (I do believe that deflection grants 50% to rng/melee defenses ) but the attacker also takes 50%, yaaaaaay.....), and while arguable about tanks (because they are defensive and reflect 100% of the original damage, so the attacker takes more dmg than u this time) I recommend spending utilities more defensively for them. So "you can't reflect attacks if you stealth out and a good sin won't do that!" couldn't be more wrong. (actually that part is right because if you stealth out you are not reflecting anything.) Choosing reflect instead of stealth when stealth is needed is what a good sin would never do...(So I take it you run and hide alot.)

 

So instead of you telling me to play a sin (which I do a lot), lemme tell you to play a sin PROPERLY (which you admitted you don't) (that's your opinion one i don't share) using the utilities: "Shroud of madness" and "disjunction" to actually make stealth out useful, using "fade" to make it useful often, using "emersion" because you seem to mix things up and not remember it is actually about force-speed breaking roots and slows, (NO it's about Delivering the most dmg to the target!) definitely NOT using retaliatory grip for DPS and instead using (beside disjunction) either "phasing phantasm" (I switch between both) (for additional root breaker + defensive force speed which is a gr8 dmg mitigation with a cd of 15 secs only) or "reaper's rush" (for deception, which already relys on stride for offensive, so make it even more offensive and possibly reduce cd). Of course "avoidance" because all abilities in there better have shorter cd possible and I will leave the few rest up to you, and good luck.

 

[Do tell me what utilities you are currently using, just so I know where exactly were you standing when you said what you said] ( what did you have to forgo in order to get avoidance, Fade, Dis junction, Shroud of madness?(SOM))

 

EDIT1: Clarification in case I wasn't clear enough: NO-ONE is immune to anything while in stealth regardless of his utilities, neither operatives nor assassins. All immunities above are for the few 2s or 4s after you use combat stealth!!

I suppose I should have clarified that a sin's cloak is laughable UNLESS he has spent points in SOM and if your play style is to run and hide what you purpose seems like it would work well. That is not my play style I am a DPS as much dmg on target when i pop cloak I ain't lookin to run i'm looking for the 60 sec reduction on recklessness so I can have at it again. Based on what you said you did take it seems your giving up on some other things. what ever if it suits your style of play have at it!

spoiler alert, both Retaliatory Grip and Dark Stability are bad/not worth it.

 

You should go with something like this:

Tier1: Avoidance & Electric Bindings

Tier2: Fade & Obfuscation (giving up audacity is a DPS loss an extra charge of recklessness that's six Recklessness ....yeah i know it's only 3 but if timed right you pop cloak you got another 3)

Tier3: Shroud of Madness & Emersion

Tier4: Phasing Phantasm

This leaves you with 1 utility point, either Haunted Dreams from tier3 or Disjunction from tier4

 

im not saying those all utilities are the perfect ones, but im pretty certain they are better than Retaliatory Grip and Dark Stability

FYI I run with Phasing phantasm but i have flip back and forth with Retaliatory grip

@Kazz_Devlin, It is not possible to quote a quoted post so I can't find an easy way to respond to you because your response is inside my quote. Therefore I am afraid the best way will be just copy-pasting your responses and responding to them:

"Do you think operatives are immune in stealth? DON"T CARE"

"Really I chose something that caters to my style of play and its WRONG! This is YOUR OPINION and one I really don't share."

Well lemme remind you how did this conversation started as a response to this:

I can see the op a bit but Really sins..... your complaining about Sin's. Here's a secret a Sin stealth's on you just Sneeze or fart hell even the miasma of bioware's epic failure to actually balance the game will pop a Sin outa stealth. Got a dot use it that will pop him/her out, our cloak is the weakest defensive ability we have because 99% of the time it don't work!. A sin cloaks I hit lacerate (AOE MELEE) pops them 99% of the time!

which seems to claim that sin's stealth is crap compared to operative's stealth because sin is easily exposable. I assumed that you meant it "compared to the operative" (due to the yellow part in the last quote) and explained why is this not true (1. operatives need utilities for it too. 2. operatives' stealth is actually less good considering all associated utilities).

I also assumed you meant to say that sin's stealth is crap even with the utilities because if you meant to say "sin can have an awesome stealth but without utilities which I choose not to take it is crap" (which is what you seem to say now) then:

1. You can't complain in such a long seemingly angry paragraph such as the above quote about a thing you can but choose not to change.

2. The quoted part is not true to a post which speaks about the possibility of stealth, because while YOU don't play like this, others might, and therefore are a problem.

3. You wouldn't say the following:

You might actually want to play sin so you can learn we are not immune to sniper probe, force storm, all kinds of knockbacks and aoe stuns and mezzes while stealthing out FACT![Why offensively assume I never played a sin if a sin CAN be as immune as I said and you just CHOSE not to? Isn't it more likely to assume I play with the utilities that you supposedly know about but don't pick?] All those things will pop a sin outa stealth! Where in the 9 hells you got that info is just plain wrong. Maybe if a sin spent a utility point in dark stability which grants 6 secs of stun immunity however, it should be noted that is an utter waste of the ability ... Also going into stealth DOES NOT CLEANSE a dot UNLESS that sin has wasted a utility for it [Here it looks like you didn't know about the following 2 or 4 sec immunity]. Most will not give up Dark stability or emersion for the 2 sec shroudFunny, I thought you said Dark Stability is an utter waste.Though this like actually confused me because you didn't mention Force Shroud, so it seems you know about the immunity, though you seemed not to know about the useful increase to 4s. You seem to think sin are invulnerable when we stealth out its just not the case Every ability that you listed will pop a sin outa stealth. What ability grants immunity to all these abilities you list???[And again the answer is Force Shroud which is triggered upon stealth and last 4s

Basically this whole paragraph gave me the impression that you didn't know to what extent is the shroud useful when you wrote it and didn't know that operatives are in the same boat about having to pick a utility (btw, operatives have a much harder choice because their utilities are awesome), and therefore I made the comparison and mentioned that they need a utility.. But never mind because at least now there is no arguing that you know all that. Therefore if you choose to play with 1/4 the survivability, it is your choice...

"(I do believe that deflection grants 50% to rng/melee defenses )"

Indeed it does, without wasting a legendary utility though. Keep this utility for something better, deflection is merely a defensive vs people with high M/R DPS such as MM snipers and maras. As I am going to say soon, reflecting is useless.

"(actually that part is right because if you stealth out you are not reflecting anything.)"

You are a DPS right? so again, simple math says reflecting is useless for you. If it is M/R attack the chances for hit are reduced by the main ability, but anything that is lucky enough to hit you will hit totally normally without reflect. If it is a F/T ability it will 100% hit you (unless you use force shroud or other defensives) and will hit for 100% dmg but additionally it will hit the attacker for 50% (Unless he has any kind of defensive). In short, if it is a case in which you are low enough to consider stealthing out, staying with deflection will only buy you a few seconds and in case you are fighting, for example, a concealment operative, 0 seconds because he deals pure tech dmg, which means you will die all the same, but he will take half the dmg you took in the process, then after you have died he will stealth out (if your groupmates are around) and heals this dmg, so the dmg was useless, or he will cap your node if you were a guard (while if you stealthed out succesfully you could troll him for at least 16 more seconds while calling for help).

"(So I take it you run and hide alot.)"

When I am in a good situation, believe me, I deal damage as good as most dps, however when my health is low and I know I will die in 3 seconds accomplishing nothing but 1 more hit unless I stealth, run and hide, I choose to stealth run and hide rather than dealing this useless (up to 27k, but probably half of it) hit and actually dying and running from the spawn, possibly losing my defensive objective or giving the ball to enemy or giving hypergate points or whatever the game is about. I don't feel I should be ashamed of it, and I think those who rather die are stupid. "So I take it" you never had a match in which you took 1.3m damage and survived with 0 deaths without a single healer in your group.

"(NO it's about Delivering the most dmg to the target!)"

I rather survive longer and retaliate than deal little more damage and die, if its objective being alive is always more important than some stupid dmg whenever you are guarding, holding a ball, or not granting enemy hypergate points, and even if u wanna cap its better to stealthout and attack one H2F later than dying and letting enemies recover. In arenas, of course, it is better to give up dmg to stealth and get healed than dying unless you are certain you will get the enemy healer dies.

"That is not my play style I am a DPS as much dmg on target when i pop cloak I ain't lookin to run i'm looking for the 60 sec reduction on recklessness so I can have at it again."

So why did you complain about it being useless, you don't even use that stealth! Anyway, I do suggest you try to sometimes use your stealth defensively, it will give you more combat time.

I understand that you use emersion and DS instead of SOM, I suggest you remove DS and take SOM and see how it works, believe me it will be better. Remind me the 4s shroud immunity will remain even if you break stealth, so you 4s get immunity to most stuns when you stealth + extra cleanse + total F/T immunity (which includes pushes and pulls and slows, DS doesn't include that, and mg of course, and has 1m15s cd) instead of 6s (only stun immunity) when you use deflection (2m cd).

@Kazz_Devlin, It is not possible to quote a quoted post so I can't find an easy way to respond to you because your response is inside my quote. Therefore I am afraid the best way will be just copy-pasting your responses and responding to them:

 

"Do you think operatives are immune in stealth? DON"T CARE"

"Really I chose something that caters to my style of play and its WRONG! This is YOUR OPINION and one I really don't share."

Well lemme remind you how did this conversation started as a response to this:

 

which seems to claim that sin's stealth is crap compared to operative's stealth because sin is easily exposable. I assumed that you meant it "compared to the operative" (due to the yellow part in the last quote) and explained why is this not true (1. operatives need utilities for it too. 2. operatives' stealth is actually less good considering all associated utilities).

I also assumed you meant to say that sin's stealth is crap even with the utilities because if you meant to say "sin can have an awesome stealth but without utilities which I choose not to take it is crap" (which is what you seem to say now) then:

1. You can't complain in such a long seemingly angry paragraph such as the above quote about a thing you can but choose not to change.

2. The quoted part is not true to a post which speaks about the possibility of stealth, because while YOU don't play like this, others might, and therefore are a problem.

3. You wouldn't say the following:

 

Basically this whole paragraph gave me the impression that you didn't know to what extent is the shroud useful (In my defense at no time did you ever mention shroud you just sad immunity!! I was rather confused because your writing isn't all that coherent at points with run on sentences and such. I was trying to figure out exactly what it was you were talking about because you said immunity and shroud doesn't give immunity save for movement effects. The rest is a chance to resist . (Not to mention I just got off working 12hrs so i was rather tired.) I was going on the assumption what your typical assassin would likely take.) when you wrote it and didn't know that operatives are in the same boat about having to pick a utility (btw, operatives have a much harder choice because their utilities are awesome), and therefore I made the comparison and mentioned that they need a utility.. But never mind because at least now there is no arguing that you know all that. Therefore if you choose to play with 1/4 the survivability, it is your choice... Your a DPS burst your squishy as hell once DCD are gone OWN IT and dish out the death! Running away and heal to full is just lame) Would still like to know what exactly your giving up for all that stealth though. Plus Lacerate still pops a sin outa stealth 9 times outa 10

 

 

"(I do believe that deflection grants 50% to rng/melee defenses )"

Indeed it does, without wasting a legendary utility though. Keep this utility for something better, deflection is merely a defensive vs people with high M/R DPS such as MM snipers and maras. (Which I often engage with now due too influx of I win snipers) As I am going to say soon, reflecting is useless.

 

"(actually that part is right because if you stealth out you are not reflecting anything.)"

You are a DPS right? so again, simple math says reflecting is useless for you. If it is M/R attack the chances for hit are reduced by the main ability, but anything that is lucky enough to hit you will hit totally normally without reflect. If it is a F/T ability it will 100% hit you (unless you use force shroud or other defensives) and will hit for 100% dmg but additionally it will hit the attacker for 50% (Unless he has any kind of defensive). In short, if it is a case in which you are low enough to consider stealthing out, staying with deflection will only buy you a few seconds and in case you are fighting, for example, a concealment operative, 0 seconds because he deals pure tech dmg, which means you will die all the same, but he will take half the dmg you took in the process, then after you have died he will stealth out (if your groupmates are around) and heals this dmg, so the dmg was useless, or he will cap your node if you were a guard (while if you stealthed out succesfully you could troll him for at least 16 more seconds while calling for help).

 

"(So I take it you run and hide alot.)"

When I am in a good situation, believe me, I deal damage as good as most dps, however when my health is low and I know I will die in 3 seconds accomplishing nothing but 1 more hit unless I stealth, run and hide, I choose to stealth run and hide rather Time outa combat vs that 30k crit I just might have landed died respawned an rejoined the fight your way spend more time running and hiding than dealing this useless (up to 27k, but probably half of it) hit and actually dying and running from the spawn, possibly losing my defensive objective or giving the ball to enemy or giving hypergate points or whatever the game is about. I don't feel I should be ashamed of it, and I think those who rather die are stupid. "So I take it" you never had a match in which you took 1.3m damage and survived with 0 deaths without a single healer in your group. (Sure have and that's without cloaking and running)

 

"(NO it's about Delivering the most dmg to the target!)"

I rather survive longer and retaliate than deal little more damage and die, (Imposible for you to know on whether the damage would be little or a lot) if its objective being alive is always more important than some stupid dmg whenever you are guarding, (now your comparing apples to oranges I never said I'd forego tatic's, strategy and common sense over DPS!) holding a ball, or not granting enemy hypergate points, and even if u wanna cap its better to stealthout and attack one H2F later than dying and letting enemies recover. In arenas, of course, it is better to give up dmg to stealth and get healed than dying unless you are certain you will get the enemy healer dies.

 

"That is not my play style I am a DPS as much dmg on target when i pop cloak I ain't lookin to run i'm looking for the 60 sec reduction on recklessness so I can have at it again."

So why did you complain about it being useless, Because it is useless UNLESS you invest points in it!you don't even use that stealth! Anyway, I do suggest you try to sometimes use your stealth defensively, it will give you more combat time. (at what cost?)

 

I understand that you use emersion and DS instead of SOM, I suggest you remove DS and take SOM and see how it works, believe me it will be better. Remind me the 4s shroud immunity will remain even if you break stealth, so you 4s get immunity to most stuns when you stealth + extra cleanse + total F/T immunity (which includes pushes and pulls and slows, DS doesn't include that, and mg of course, and has 1m15s cd) instead of 6s (only stun immunity) when you use deflection (2m cd). I have run with SOM but when i switch out my stun immunity I miss the hell out of it!] [/quote

 

Still wondering what your giving up for that stealth though....

"I was trying to figure out exactly what it was you were talking about because you said immunity and shroud doesn't give immunity save for movement effects. The rest is a chance to resist"

200% chance to resist <=> immunity, because it is practically the same thing.

"Your a DPS burst your squishy as hell once DCD are gone OWN IT and dish out the death! Running away and heal to full is just lame) Would still like to know what exactly your giving up for all that stealth though. Plus Lacerate still pops a sin outa stealth 9 times outa 10 "

I don't care if some would consider it "lame", but I have captured a fair share of turrets using that tactic. Exhaust someone's dcds in a fight you can't win (for example: burst the hell of a sniper who is standing near another sniper, and you can't kill both. He will use dcds because he might still die otherwise before you die). Most importantly make them waste stun-breaker. After that is accomplished stealthout, H2F as soon as possible which is out of sight and kill burst him, this time to quick death, because he has no cds, or cap his turret because he got no breaker.

As for what I am giving up, in terms of utilities: dark stability. First of all because I find SOM for better, and 2nd, because due to so many people using DS, the enemy would usually avoid using a stun on me while in deflection even if though I don't have DS because they don't know I don't have (90% don't look at buffs at the hit of combat). I cant recall even once I was stunned while deflection was one and it was actually important not to be stunned. As for lacerate: well don't stealth in melee range of aoeing ppl

"So I take it" you never had a match in which you took 1.3m damage and survived with 0 deaths without a single healer in your group. (Sure have and that's without cloaking and running)"

Excuse me if I don't believe that. Taking 1.3m at all is a rare thing, doing so without dying is a rare thing, and doing so without dying, without a healer and without cloaking gotta mean you actually killed all your enemies, got out of combat, and regenerated (lets say you have 130k hp), 100 times. There is no way to get more dmg than you hp and survive without healing or regenerating, and without healers in the equation that gotta be regenerating, and regen is possible only out of combat, and out of combat is possible for either stealthing and running (which you say you don't) or killing all enemies. The only possible scenario is an infinite 1-turreted Novare in which you guarded a node and an idiot who is good at dpsing while being terrible at duels attacked you again and again while you were alone guarding a turret, eventually letting you accumulate 1.3m Damage taken while still going off combat each time you kill that guy so you can regen. That or you are suggesting maybe saber overcharge healed you the whole match. So again, excuse me if I find this claim unbelievable

"So why did you complain about it being useless, Because it is useless UNLESS you invest points in it!you don't even use that stealth!"

This comment makes no logical sense if you read my whole sentence. The question remains, if you don't stealth out to remain stealthed out but to refresh a cd, why complain about incompetence?

"I rather survive longer and retaliate than deal little more damage and die, (Imposible for you to know on whether the damage would be little or a lot) if its objective being alive is always more important than some stupid dmg whenever you are guarding, (now your comparing apples to oranges I never said I'd forego tatic's, strategy and common sense over DPS!) holding a ball, or not granting enemy hypergate points, and even if u wanna cap its better to stealthout and attack one H2F later than dying and letting enemies recover. In arenas, of course, it is better to give up dmg to stealth and get healed than dying unless you are certain you will get the enemy healer dies."

Again cutting to soon. In the 2nd half of the paragraph I list several scenarios in which, regardless to DPS calculations, you should attempt stealth rather than death. So I never said that you put damage above objectives, but since stealth IS important to objectives and objectives are important ==> stealth is important and worth investing in. Q.E.D

"I was trying to figure out exactly what it was you were talking about because you said immunity and shroud doesn't give immunity save for movement effects. The rest is a chance to resist"

200% chance to resist <=> immunity, because it is practically the same thing.

 

"Your a DPS burst your squishy as hell once DCD are gone OWN IT and dish out the death! Running away and heal to full is just lame) Would still like to know what exactly your giving up for all that stealth though. Plus Lacerate still pops a sin outa stealth 9 times outa 10 "

 

I don't care if some would consider it "lame", but I have captured a fair share of turrets using that tactic. Exhaust someone's dcds in a fight you can't win (for example: burst the hell of a sniper who is standing near another sniper, and you can't kill both. He will use dcds because he might still die otherwise before you die). Most importantly make them waste stun-breaker. After that is accomplished stealthout, H2F as soon as possible which is out of sight and kill burst him, this time to quick death, because he has no cds, or cap his turret because he got no breaker.

As for what I am giving up, in terms of utilities: dark stability. First of all because I find SOM for better, and 2nd, because due to so many people using DS, the enemy would usually avoid using a stun on me while in deflection even if though I don't have DS because they don't know I don't have (90% don't look at buffs at the hit of combat). I cant recall even once I was stunned while deflection was one and it was actually important not to be stunned. As for lacerate: well don't stealth in melee range of aoeing ppl

 

"So I take it" you never had a match in which you took 1.3m damage and survived with 0 deaths without a single healer in your group. (Sure have and that's without cloaking and running)"

 

Excuse me if I don't believe that. Taking 1.3m at all is a rare thing, doing so without dying is a rare thing, and doing so without dying, without a healer and without cloaking gotta mean you actually killed all your enemies, got out of combat, and regenerated (lets say you have 130k hp), 100 times. There is no way to get more dmg than you hp and survive without healing or regenerating, and without healers in the equation that gotta be regenerating, and regen is possible only out of combat, and out of combat is possible for either stealthing and running (which you say you don't) or killing all enemies. The only possible scenario is an infinite 1-turreted Novare in which you guarded a node and an idiot who is good at dpsing while being terrible at duels attacked you again and again while you were alone guarding a turret, eventually letting you accumulate 1.3m Damage taken while still going off combat each time you kill that guy so you can regen. That or you are suggesting maybe saber overcharge healed you the whole match. So again, excuse me if I find this claim unbelievable

 

"So why did you complain about it being useless, Because it is useless UNLESS you invest points in it!you don't even use that stealth!"

This comment makes no logical sense if you read my whole sentence. The question remains, if you don't stealth out to remain stealthed out but to refresh a cd, why complain about incompetence?

 

"I rather survive longer and retaliate than deal little more damage and die, (Imposible for you to know on whether the damage would be little or a lot) if its objective being alive is always more important than some stupid dmg whenever you are guarding, (now your comparing apples to oranges I never said I'd forego tatic's, strategy and common sense over DPS!) holding a ball, or not granting enemy hypergate points, and even if u wanna cap its better to stealthout and attack one H2F later than dying and letting enemies recover. In arenas, of course, it is better to give up dmg to stealth and get healed than dying unless you are certain you will get the enemy healer dies."

 

Again cutting to soon. In the 2nd half of the paragraph I list several scenarios in which, regardless to DPS calculations, you should attempt stealth rather than death. So I never said that you put damage above objectives, but since stealth IS important to objectives and objectives are important ==> stealth is important and worth investing in. Q.E.D

Among all possible responses including "no response" which would have left a chance that you simply didn't read the message, this is certainly the most childish way to respond to a post which you have no answers for. I actually expected that link to be a video of you being awesome in PVP without stealthing or something, to serve as an actual point, but I suppose I expected too much.

If that is your level, then I don't know why I bothered responding to you in the first place. Have fun getting exposed by lacerate and dying, finishing a match with top damage and top deaths and then cursing BioWare for incompetent stealth systems.

Among all possible responses including "no response" which would have left a chance that you simply didn't read the message, this is certainly the most childish way to respond to a post which you have no answers for. I actually expected that link to be a video of you being awesome in PVP without stealthing or something, to serve as an actual point, but I suppose I expected too much.

 

If that is your level, then I don't know why I bothered responding to you in the first place. Have fun getting exposed by lacerate and dying, finishing a match with top damage and top deaths and then cursing BioWare for incompetent stealth systems.

FYI having invested all those utilities in stealth will do little to prevent lacerate from popping you out its a melee attack not force based so your 200% resist doesn't apply!

I did read what you wrote 200% to resist, and the post I made reflected a humorous response. Didn't know I was breaking some cardinal rule where humor is frowned upon. Seems to me you might want to put the game down and come outa your mom and dads basement for a while! Why so serious? ( it's Jim Carrey for petes sake)

The point i was making yes its a chance and a rather high one too but you can still have it fail that being said technically it's not immunity.

So after working 12 hrs the day I posted this and reading what you wrote about immunity it didn't quite register what you were talking about, I was rather tired you know. To get that upset over a humorous post ..............................................................................sad man, just sad.

FYI having invested all those utilities in stealth will do little to prevent lacerate from popping you out its a melee attack not force based so your 200% resist doesn't apply!

Lacerate is very short ranged, if you don't stealth out close to the enemy assassin it will not expose you, so the solution is to force speed before you stealth out, very simple.

I did read what you wrote 200% to resist, and the post I made reflected a humorous response. [...]

The point i was making yes its a chance and a rather high one too but you can still have it fail that being said technically it's not immunity.

The math behind "resist" is: Your force/tech accuracy rating less the enemy's resist chance equals the chance to hit, failure to hit is a "resist". That means unless the enemy has invested in accuracy and gone other 200% than his chance to hit you with F/T is his accuracy (which is less than 200%) - 200% = less than 0% to hit => absolutely no hit but a resist. So, therefore, it is not "a chance and a rather high one" but it IS technically an immunity.

Didn't know I was breaking some cardinal rule where humor is frowned upon. Seems to me you might want to put the game down and come outa your mom and dads basement for a while! Why so serious? ( it's Jim Carrey for petes sake)

So after working 12 hrs the day I posted this and reading what you wrote about immunity it didn't quite register what you were talking about, I was rather tired you know. To get that upset over a humorous post ..............................................................................sad man, just sad.

Please stop using the "tired after 12h" excuse because I study in University 14h a day and still have enough time to give private lessons for money for up to 2 more hours AND play all aspects of this game (except for RP that doesn't interest me). So much for the stupid assumption, you had about my life when you said "come outa your mom and dads basement" ;P. I didn't make any assumptions about YOUR life, even though at least where I come from, the work day is usually as long as 12h only for the low classes of workers. Let's keep this civilized...

I was not "offended" by your response but you need to realize how it looks when you respond to a long post such as my last one (and even quote it fully, to emphasize that) and your only response is a not-funny joke, implying that even if you did read my post, you didn't bother even thinking about it. Which means that (after a day of 15h, not 12) I spent a time equal to 2 or 3 warzones reading your post and responding to it, which took much longer than normal responses would have taken because I have had to copy-paste all your words because you had written inside unquotable quotes instead of normally responding to them outside of the quotes [Yes, I know the majority of people on earth would need to reread this sentence a few times to understand it ] , and all this to get a completely out of context joke implying my time would be better spent killing assassins with my lacerate after they foolishly stealth out too close to me.

I consider this discussion over unless your next response gets it back on topic. As soon as you admitted assassins CAN have an efficient stealth-out and it is only your own personal preference not to use it, the discussion became irrelevant to the OP's topic. The topic is that both sins and ops can (if they choose to pick the required utilities) troll a match from the very beginning (and not as a last resort for the final 20 secs), and win, which was probably not the intention when acid was developed and needs to be changed... To be honest, even as a last resort I don't think it is quite fair for the opposing team to lose just because they have no stealther to lose, even if I once or twice saw the opportunity and successfully took it myself...