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Mean Mitigation


Jethsidi

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Let me preface this by saying this guide is based on an average of mitigation across all 3 tanking classes. Meaning if you add up your armor, stats, and health all 3 classes should have roughly the same DTPS per fight (obvious variances not included), achieved by having similar stat percentages. If this is NOT a style of tanking that you believe is viable you can save your time, you will not agree with anything I am about to say.

 

 

This guide is also written using Imperial terms, but I have no doubt that competent Republic players will be able to translate it adequately.

 

Total Stat Pools:

Mitigation – 4003

B-Mods – 3841

Split-Mods – 3895

 

*Split-Mods refers to a combination of Full Mitigation and B-Mods. On Juggernauts and Powertechs this combination is 3 Mitigation and 6 B-Mods. On Assassins this combination is 6 Mitigation and 3 B-Mods.

 

To further clarify before we get into stat pools: the way that I have geared my Juggernaut and Powertech is by having all enhancements Defense Rating and all mods Absorb. This style is different on the Assassin due to how quickly you can reach your Defense Rating goals, but that will be explained further down. Stat differentials are also based on Revanite token drops and B-Mods attained from the Ultimate Comms vendor. Ear piece and Implant stats are based on 198 Token and not Comms. Health computations selected are based on the fact that target health pool for mitigation tanks (not endurance stacking) is generally accepted as being between 53k and 56k, these also assume all Endurance datacrons have been attained.

 

******* THIS POST HAS BEEN UPDATED SINCE THE OP, ALL MATH VALUES HAVE BEEN CORRECTED AND ARE EXACT ***********

 

 

 

Juggernauts

 

Health

- Full Mitigation = 52,132

- B-Mods = 55,156

- Split-Mods = 54,148

 

Stat Distribution (Augment Differential: 10 Shield, 4 Absorb/ 1 Implant Defense, 1 Implant Absorb)

Defense Rating – 1094 = 20.08% (25.08% with Blade Barricade)

Shield Rating – 1720 = 50.2%

Absorb Rating:

- 1027 [b-Mods] = 40.63% (43.63% with Aegis Assault)

- 1189 [Full Mitigation] = 42.99% (45.99% with Aegis Assault)

- 1081 [split Mods] = 41.44% (44.44% with Aegis Assault)

 

Powertech

 

Health

- Full Mitigation = 52,132

- B-Mods = 55,156

- Split-Mods = 54,148

 

Stat Distribution (Augment Differential: 8 Shield, 6 Defense/ Both Implants Defense)

Shield Rating – 1616 = 47.11% (50.11% with Shield Enhancers)

Defense Rating -- 1406 = 24.47%

Absorb Rating:

- 819 [b-Mods] = 41.28% (44.28% with Heat Screens and 66.28% with Heat Blast)

- 981 [Full Mitigation] = 43.92% (46.92% with Heat Screens and 68.92% with Heat Blast)

- 873 [split-Mods] = 42.19% (45.19% with Heat Screens and 67.19% with Heat Blast)

 

 

Assassin

 

Health

- Full Mitigation = 52,998.8

- B-Mods = 55,738

- Split-Mods = 54,026

*B-Mod health pool takes into account 1 Full Mitigation mod to attain Defense Rating.

 

Stat Distribution (Augment Differential: Varies)

Defense Rating – 750 = 24.93 (Both Implants, 1 Full Mit Mod, 1 Enhancement, 1 Augment)

Absorb Rating

- 1793 [Full Mitigation] = 54.25% (8 Augments)

- 1753 [b-Mod] = 53.84% (10 Augments)

- 1791 [split-Mods] = 54.23% (9 Augments)

Shield Rating

- 1460 [Full Mitigation] = 58.34% (5 Augments)

- 1356 [b-Mods] = 57.15% (3 Augments)

- 1408 [split-Mods] = 57.77% (4 Augments)

 

The difference in the Absorb percentages is factored into the average mitigation. So where the Assassin absorbs roughly 10% more damage per shield, the other classes simply take that much less damage at all times due to heavy armor.

 

Relics

- Juggernauts and Assassins are in a unique position due to the new, larger stat pools. Pre-3.0 the generally accepted BiS relic combination was Fortunate Redoubt and Reactive Warding. However, given the Shield percentages that can be attained, Shield Amplification can actually be better mitigation than RW. The technicality of it is that you cannot use Saber Reflect or Force Shroud while it is procced or you have just wasted potential mitigation. So if you are not one who wants to watche their buff bar that closely FR and RW are still going to be the best mitigation you can get.

- On Powertechs I will always run FR but post-3.0 my secondary relic has been an activation relic (Shrouded Crusader/Imperiling Serenity), which gives me an additional, fight specific cooldown. However, RW is going to be your best secondary choice if you want dual proc relics.

 

 

If you have read this far I would like to say thank you for your time.

(And before all the comments flood in: yes, I know that my stated PT differential is contrary to what most PT's are running at the moment)

Edited by Jethsidi
I noticed an error in the stat breakdown on Powertech, it has been corrected.
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Interesting post, any chance you can provide HM TOS/Rav DTPS parses on fights to backup your stat distribution choices or are these baselines formed from number crunching? Would be interesting in reference to PT Tanking stat distribution in particular, as I run far less defense than your model, and I feel like my DTPS profile is very easy to heal and mitigation is solid.
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Next time I run the fights I will record my parses. I can tell you that my Juggernaut averages between 1400 and 1500 DTPS per fight (Master/Blaster not included, little guy hits like a damn truck). My record on Bulo was 1059 (achieved 867 with a Sorc healer one time). Distribution on PT's and Assassin's is mainly number-crunching at this point, will run them more thoroughly and update post when applicable.

Also: not intending to argue the way PT's work, well aware of the 3 schools of thought on that tank, but for me it seems to bring them more in line on fights like Underlurker where the main boss is Defense oriented. (Shrouded Crusader relic is incredibly OP during add phases of that fight).

 

*** Have been unable to test Cora/Revan due to obvious reasons.

Edited by Jethsidi
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Next time I run the fights I will record my parses. I can tell you that my Juggernaut averages between 1400 and 1500 DTPS per fight (Master/Blaster not included, little guy hits like a damn truck). My record on Bulo was 1059 (achieved 867 with a Sorc healer one time). Distribution on PT's and Assassin's is mainly number-crunching at this point, will run them more thoroughly and update post when applicable.

Also: not intending to argue the way PT's work, well aware of the 3 schools of thought on that tank, but for me it seems to bring them more in line on fights like Underlurker where the main boss is Defense oriented. (Shrouded Crusader relic is incredibly OP during add phases of that fight).

 

*** Have been unable to test Cora/Revan due to obvious reasons.

Too bad you don't have in fight data for PT Tanking to go with, but I'll supplement info below that might help get the ball rolling. Can't compare Jugg numbers really since their mitigation profile is so different.

 

Similarly, I'm not attempting to start a war over PT theory either, as I'm unlikely to change my opinion or attempt to change yours short of me noticing you're taking wildly less damage on a PT in HM with similar tank roles or something.

To give some food for thought, I'll post some average DTPS numbers. My gear is 595 Defense 1305 Absorb and like...1865 Shield I think? Revanite Ear and Implants Relics are Revanite Reactive and Revanite Fortunate Redoubt, all 198 armorings with 198 offhand 192 mainhand all mods are B mods 198 all enhancements are 198 mean mitigation save for 2 off piece drop 198 enhancements, will upgrade as soon as I get more gear obviously. HP Values at 55899 with buffs, stim. Using Rakata Absorb Adrenal, Purple Medpacs in raid.

 

On the DTPS end, I'm taking... (these are approximate values varying lockout to lockout)

 

1600 Malaphar HM 8 *Strat involves tank taking a few more stacks than ideal for sake of ease of tank swapping at add spawns, could easily take less damage but it's unnecessary when strat makes fight easier overall*

 

1700 Sword Squadron HM 8 *Using a Strat where we taunt from range and stay on our assigned walkers. Would take less damage if we did a positional swap, but again strat preference for raid*

 

1000-1200 Underlurker HM 8 *Variance really has to do with how much cleave I feel like doing as well as proccing close and personal and pyro shield during add spawns*

 

900-1000 Revanite Commanders HM 8 *The damage taken in this fight, outside of add cleave, is basically irrelevant, the only DTPS that matters is how you manage cooldowns in the final burn.*

 

1400-1500 Revan HM 8 (Coincidentally 16 man HM Revan is almost identical DTPS, due to 16 man damage profile being somehow WEAKER in some respects) *Fairly pleased with my DTPS in Revan HM kills*

 

Sparky 1400 HM 8 *Fight is a joke, just hit cooldowns and keep tanking, our strat doesn't involve a swap*

 

Bulo 1300-1400 HM 8 *Could improve on DTPS, but it's less about mitigation and more about our tanks grabbing very few barrels and instead AOE taunting pirates, holding threat for mass barrages on add wave 2, 3 and 4 with barrels only grabbed on first and *if still alive* fifth wave. If we grabbed barrels for each, could take 1-200 less DTPS, but again, our strat is extremely clean and repeatable*

 

Torque 1500 HM 8 *Fairly content with damage profile on Torque, I try and get threat on as many of the adds as possible and any variance with my DTPS is how many floor vent ticks I take total*

 

Blaster Master 1800-2000 HM 8 *Boss hits like a truck and the damage profile is not the jam on a PT tank. Sins are gods on this fight. Pleased overall with a 1604 DTPS in the last full run of Rav HM with my group*

 

Coratanni 1700-1900 HM 8 *Definitely want to improve on taking less damage on Coratanni, but overall I'm pleased, as Pearl is a complete jerk that hits like a truck. Another fight where I feel a Sin tank would be superior in my role*

 

I'm always looking to improve on my DTPS logs for fights to make my healer's job easier, but our healers don't complain about our tanks taking too much damage and on most complain about a lack overall. Internally, the Zorz tanks have been discussing PT tank theory, trying to make sure we haven't been lazy in our approach to gearing and mitigation theory. As of now, until I get a large amount of data showing otherwise, I don't see ample need to gear for so much defense, as so much of the IMPORTANT damage (important to our healers and to the overall profile at least) is internal, in addition to the basic ideas that having the opportunity to shield damage, not to mention the healing cooldowns that PT tanks have in their arsenal that are % based and not HP value based (Kolto Overload, in addition to the Shield Cannon heal utility) that give credence to b mods. IDK. I'm very interested in more feedback and discussion because I'm not against the idea of using a different stat distribution.

Edited by justinplainview
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Damage profiles you have listed are very similar to what I am achieving on Olmez (Juggernaut), so I can say with most certainty that he is BiS. Differential breakdown on Assassin also seems to be close to target range.

 

PT's is where I am still working it out. While the Defense rating does help in certain fights, the primary and tertiary cooldowns they have are Defense based (even more so if I put in Imperiling Serenity). On your recommendation I am going to try out dropping Defense and buffing the other stats (probably won't let it drop below 20%, but should be able to take all the augments out at least). What would you have me put the additional points into?

Edited by Jethsidi
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Damage profiles you have listed are very similar to what I am achieving on Olmez (Juggernaut), so I can say with most certainty that he is BiS. Differential breakdown on Assassin also seems to be close to target range.

 

PT's is where I am still working it out. While the Defense rating does help in certain fights, the primary and tertiary cooldowns they have are Defense based (even more so if I put in Imperiling Serenity). On your recommendation I am going to try out dropping Defense and buffing the other stats (probably won't let it drop below 20%, but should be able to take all the augments out at least). What would you have me put the additional points into?

Yeah, with exception to 2 enhancements and a mainhand tank barrel, I am extremely close to (what I presume at least) BiS for a PT Tank.

 

Personally, if I were in your position at ~24% Defense and you wanted to drop to 20% (since you prefer not to drop below), I would drop, whichever the precise stat budget you have available probably 60% of that number into Absorb, since you run fairly low, rest into shield. I haven't tested Imperiling Serenity yet (though I have tested Shield Amp, which is amazing on a few bosses but absolute garbage on most) so I'll definitely be trying out one soon :)

 

On another note, I'm more than willing to test out higher defense levels, just for the sake of argument. It'll take a bit of time to get some more defense gear to work with, but when I can I'll run a 10/10 with a different defense rating (probably wont go much higher than 800) and I'll let you know how my logs vary between the two setups.

 

If we want to go further down the rabbit hole, I may (read that as I definitely will) link this to my cotanks in Zorz and see if they have any extra insight or have any opinions. At the very least, Smugglin can go in more depth than I can into tank theory, as he's more seasoned at it than I.

 

Now, here's the real question. You listed a stat budget for mean mitigation, full b mods, and hybrid b mods. Which do you use for your Jugg?

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First for PT's then for Juggs.

 

Reason I did not feel the need to up Absorb on my PT is the fact that I have 100% uptime on the 3% buff (meaning after I pop Heat Blast I have 3 stacks back before the effect ends). In addition, my average time between when Heat Blast ends and it is re-applied is 2 globals, and the longest delay I have had was 3 (Firestorm was procced). So given the amount of time that 25% buff is up it felt the points could be spent elsewhere to even out my stats.

 

Olmez's current stat pool gives him the equivalent of the Split-Mod configuration.

He also runs Shield Amp/Fort Redoubt and I get bored sometimes so I make sure when a relic is procced or a cooldown is up that I do not use Force Scream until the effect has ended.

 

Side Note: My Assassin is also Split-Mod and runs FR/RW.

Edited by Jethsidi
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The one thing I would caution for Juggernauts is stat distribution. KeyBoardNinja (great man, LOVE what he does) has the Defense rating high in his differential build. While you may get the most % points for your stat value that way, we both know that is not how fights always work (i.e. the reason you don't run high Defense on your PT at the moment). Which is why I run 1094 putting it *perfectly* (point of view) at 25%. Since you don't have to augment Defense like you did previous tier you can put the points into Shield. Now, 1500 is where you start hitting really bad DR on Shield with Juggernauts, but I pushed mine to 1720 to achieve 50%. You may wish to run less than that, in which case more of your augments would be Absorb.

 

If I remember correctly the completely balanced stat percentages were 25% Defense, 47% Shield and 47% Absorb. However, when I did the number crunching on Shield/Absorb ratios (algorithms used were DTPS, hit-to-hit basis, and total damage taken) it seemed that as long as your Absorb was above 40% you actually got more total mitigation out of stacking Shield. That being said 50% Shield 44% Absorb seems to be a better combo than both 47/47 or the attainable 53/40 (Aegis Assault included in those numbers).

Edited by Jethsidi
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Relics

- Juggernauts and Assassins are in a unique position due to the new, larger stat pools. Pre-3.0 the generally accepted BiS relic combination was Fortunate Redoubt and Reactive Warding. However, given the Shield percentages that can be attained, Shield Amplification can actually be better mitigation than RW. The technicality of it is that you cannot use Saber Reflect or Force Shroud while it is procced or you have just wasted potential mitigation. So if you are not one who wants to watche their buff bar that closely FR and RW are still going to be the best mitigation you can get.

 

I have a quick question about this, as the Shield Amplification relic boosts Absorb values, however you mention Force Shroud and Saber Reflect, which protects from Force/Tech powers (which can't be Absorbed or Shielded anyway, from what I understand, however I haven't really played since 1.0X so I could be wrong) So I'm not sure what exactly you mean... Could you clarify this a little bit for me?

Edited by Arbegla
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I have a quick question about this, as the Shield Amplification relic boosts Absorb values, however you mention Force Shroud and Saber Reflect, which protects from Force/Tech powers (which can't be Absorbed or Shielded anyway, from what I understand, however I haven't really played since 1.0X so I could be wrong) So I'm not sure what exactly you mean... Could you clarify this a little bit for me?

 

I apologize for the confusion.

 

To clarify: You are correct that you cannot shield Force/Tech Damage. However, a lot of people do not realize that many Force/Tech Abilities actually do Energy/Kinetic Damage, even though they are labeled as Force/Tech in the Abilities window. So if you are using Parsec or StarParse it will sometimes seem as if you can shield Force/Tech abilities since they are labeled as such (though if you look at the raw logs it will state Energy/Kinetic damage), this is what I was referring to when I mentioned not over-lapping your mitigation windows.

Edited by Jethsidi
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Random Fact: Best relic for PT Tank on Underlurker is Ephemeral Mending. Due to how often AoE damage goes out, its basically a reactive warding with half the cooldown

 

You sir, I believe, have found the only current use for that relic in the game. Thank you.

Edited by Jethsidi
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I have a quick question about this, as the Shield Amplification relic boosts Absorb values, however you mention Force Shroud and Saber Reflect, which protects from Force/Tech powers (which can't be Absorbed or Shielded anyway, from what I understand, however I haven't really played since 1.0X so I could be wrong) So I'm not sure what exactly you mean... Could you clarify this a little bit for me?

 

M/R+K/E = Shieldable and defendable

 

F/T+K/E = Shieldable

 

F/T+I/E = not shieldable, not defendable

 

So Force/Tech damage can be shielded as long as it is not an internal/elemenetal attack

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You sir, I believe, have found the only current use for that relic in the game. Thank you.

 

Pretty sure that Walkers, Revan and Sparky also have enough AoE going out, but i'd have to check. Revan isn't that AoE heavy, but since only 20% of the damage is able to be mitigated, it means the relic can have heaps of downtime and not have to worry about it.

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Pretty sure that Walkers, Revan and Sparky also have enough AoE going out, but i'd have to check. Revan isn't that AoE heavy, but since only 20% of the damage is able to be mitigated, it means the relic can have heaps of downtime and not have to worry about it.

 

If you're implying EM be used on Revan you are on some of that good herb. I'm gonna have to ask you to calm down lol

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If you're implying EM be used on Revan you are on some of that good herb. I'm gonna have to ask you to calm down lol

 

Wait, you're not supposed to have Ephemeral Mending and Primeval Fatesealer as your relics for that fight? :)

Edited by Jethsidi
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You are aware that your Juggernaut defstats are totally different to KBN's numbers?

 

Very much aware. Current stat pool differential he is about 500 Defense rating higher than I am. However at 1094 I have a Defense Chance of 25%. Which on Defense-heavy fight has me deflecting/parrying 47-53% of incoming damage. I found that pushing the percentage higher resulted in a negligible difference in how much I actually defended in these fights (on both my Juggernaut and Assassin). However, putting those 500 points in Shield drastically reduced the amount of damage I take on Shield/Absorb fights. One could make the argument that my Shield is too high and that I need to put some into Absorb, but I like my 50% chance and 44% Absorb seems to be adequate for Juggernauts.

 

Don't get me wrong, KBN has solid math, and his breakdown will no doubt give you the most bang for your buck in terms of raw percentages given the selected stat budget (meaning very little DR across all 3 stats), but that is not how operations bosses usually work. Each tank is different and therefore you will need to push into the DR on certain stats to achieve mean mitigation (the whole theory this is based on), otherwise you would need to be switching which tank you used based on the fight because they are tailored to different things. Juggernauts push in the Shield DR, Assassins go into Absorb, and my current PT configuration is pushing into Defense, but I will be re-assessing that after chatting with justinplainview (probably not going to drop all of it, but I may take it down a couple hundred points).

 

P.S. I prefer to have 1 set that I can use in all fight situations, but if you are one to have different gear sets for different fights you wouldn't be looking at KBN's stats either.

Edited by Jethsidi
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Don't get me wrong, KBN has solid math, and his breakdown will no doubt give you the most bang for your buck in terms of raw percentages given the selected stat budget (meaning very little DR across all 3 stats), but that is not how operations bosses usually work. Each tank is different and therefore you will need to push into the DR on certain stats to achieve mean mitigation (the whole theory this is based on), otherwise you would need to be switching which tank you used based on the fight because they are tailored to different things. Juggernauts push in the Shield DR, Assassins go into Absorb, and my current PT configuration is pushing into Defense, but I will be re-assessing that after chatting with justinplainview (probably not going to drop all of it, but I may take it down a couple hundred points).

 

I think you're misunderstanding how my math works. I'm not optimizing for "minimum effect from diminishing returns"; I'm optimizing for "minimum damage taken". Diminishing returns are a factor in every serious calculation of this sort, but they are far from the dominant factor. For example, if you have a boss where the only non-internal/elemental damage force/tech (e.g. Soa is the classic example of this, but more recent close calls are Brontes and Corrupter Zero), then it doesn't matter what the diminishing returns on shield/absorb vs defense are, defense is still useless! My numbers consider the actual damage ratios in each boss fight and optimize for minimizing total damage taken, respecting tank-specific bonuses (e.g. Blade Barricade, Dark Ward, etc) and diminishing returns.

 

Just looking at a log and saying "well, I guess 10 more points of defense doesn't increase my dodge rate very much" is insufficient. It's too small of a sample size (RNG is going to blow away any specific results from just 10 stat points), and it's failing to take into account the full tradeoff picture. Even if adding 10 points of defense doesn't make you dodge that much more often, how much better is your mitigation going to be adding those 10 points in absorb instead? (remember to scale by your shield chance!) This is why tank mitigation is interesting from a theory crafting standpoint, since the results are quite hard to see when you get down to the level of shuffling a few points around, but they're still very quantifiable in the math.

 

I'm not saying that you can't clear content with the stat distributions you list. Tank mitigation is a relatively small component of a raid group's total competency (a decent healing pair will make bad itemization nearly irrelevant, and a bad healing pair will render good itemization insufficient). What I'm saying is that your definition of "optimal" is too shallow, and your raid results will be strictly better following a different gearing strategy.

 

To be clear, I'm not claiming that my numbers are gospel. There are plenty of quantitative reasons to use different stat distributions, particularly in very specific situations or during progression on a certain boss. What my numbers are is optimally tuned with respect to a very quantifiable and measurable set of criteria, and this is ultimately what matters with tank gearing. As long as you can very precisely define what you want out of your gear (more precisely than "MOAR TANK"), then you're in good shape already. My problem with the OP is that it doesn't precisely define this.

 

P.S. I prefer to have 1 set that I can use in all fight situations, but if you are one to have different gear sets for different fights you wouldn't be looking at KBN's stats either.

 

Plenty of people actually do look at my numbers when optimizing for specific fights. This is why I've traditionally had "low/mid/max-MR" profiles in addition to the average. Those profiles aren't up right now because of the forum intern mistake, but they're coming back when I restore the post.

Edited by KeyboardNinja
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@KBN There was a lot in there so I will try to write my replies in the order you listed things.

 

I think you're misunderstanding how my math works. I'm not optimizing for "minimum effect from diminishing returns"; I'm optimizing for "minimum damage taken".

- To clarify, I am not doubting that is how you optimize your math, simply stating when I have geared characters according to it the DR comment is what I noticed. I have no problem with your numbers, and I started all my tanks off with them and then shifted stats to better suit how I perceived I was taking damage.

 

For example, if you have a boss where the only non-internal/elemental damage force/tech (e.g. Soa is the classic example of this, but more recent close calls are Brontes and Corrupter Zero), then it doesn't matter what the diminishing returns on shield/absorb vs defense are, defense is still useless! My numbers consider the actual damage ratios in each boss fight and optimize for minimizing total damage taken, respecting tank-specific bonuses (e.g. Blade Barricade, Dark Ward, etc) and diminishing returns.

- I'm going to couple this with your statement about "10 additional points". If I read this correctly you are stating that if the fight is Shield based it doesn't matter how far into the DR you are it is still better than putting points in Defense. I completely agree. As we all know different fights have different damage profiles. This can be solved by having different gear sets optimized to different fights and switch between them. This is something I prefer not to do. I have my Juggernaut in a place where I am confident his gear can handle any fight. The principle of "more Defense will help you in this fight than Shield" based on damage type is what I was referring to when I mentioned that I did not see and increase in mitigation by going higher than 25% Defense chance. It literally didn't matter either way. You then mention adjusting values by 10 points, and again I agree. A 10 point stat difference is negligible, but we are talking in the hundreds of points stat difference. Five hundred point in Shield vs. 500 points in any other stat will be a noticeable difference, whether good or bad.

 

Tank mitigation is a relatively small component of a raid group's total competency (a decent healing pair will make bad itemization nearly irrelevant, and a bad healing pair will render good itemization insufficient).

- I doubt anyone is going to argue that point.

 

What I'm saying is that your definition of "optimal" is too shallow, and your raid results will be strictly better following a different gearing strategy.

- This is where you have missed the original point entirely. I never said these numbers were "optimal", this thread was created based on a theory where you can attain the same mitigation numbers across all three classes. As most PT's in the game will tell you, they don't run high defense. I do and I don't have any problems with it, but the PT numbers listed are simply there to show you can achieve the same percentages (roughly) as the Juggernaut/Assassin. As far as your definition of "better" raid results, I have to disagree. My average DTPS is between 1200 and 1500 on most fights, never going about 1600 unless I am completely messing something up (obvious exceptions include Master/Blaster and I am sure Revan). During fights where I am just "on" for some reason my numbers go down to just above 1k and if you throw in a Sorc healer that knows what they are doing they can be even lower. Gearing by your numbers would, granted, provide different results, but I maintain that "better" is a point of view at this level of discussion.

 

What my numbers are is optimally tuned with respect to a very quantifiable and measurable set of criteria, and this is ultimately what matters with tank gearing.

- Last update on your numbers that I saw was posted in 2013. If you have updated numbers based on the new operations' damage profiles I would very much like to see them.

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The principle of "more Defense will help you in this fight than Shield" based on damage type is what I was referring to when I mentioned that I did not see and increase in mitigation by going higher than 25% Defense chance. It literally didn't matter either way. You then mention adjusting values by 10 points, and again I agree. A 10 point stat difference is negligible, but we are talking in the hundreds of points stat difference. Five hundred point in Shield vs. 500 points in any other stat will be a noticeable difference, whether good or bad.

 

25% is an incredibly arbitrary line in the sand. What if I said 26%? 24%? What are your objections to those points instead? What if I gave you a stat budget of 8k? Would you still refuse to go above 25%?

 

How did you measure "mitigation" when you were looking for increases? Clearly not just character sheet, since your character sheet would have shown exactly how much mitigation you gain from defense vs dumping those points in shield or absorb. If you were looking at combat logs, how many did you examine? Remember, RNG washes this stuff out. Even a swing of 500 stat points (still only 12.5% of the total budget!) is going to be hard to pick out from the noise, especially if you're only looking at one or two logs.

 

This is where you have missed the original point entirely. I never said these numbers were "optimal", this thread was created based on a theory where you can attain the same mitigation numbers across all three classes. As most PT's in the game will tell you, they don't run high defense. I do and I don't have any problems with it, but the PT numbers listed are simply there to show you can achieve the same percentages (roughly) as the Juggernaut/Assassin.

 

…why would you want to? You're wasting a lot of points to diminishing returns on defense, trying to make your percentages reach the same levels that a Jugg gets nearly for free with their baseline class bonuses. You're also failing to take advantage of your own bonuses (as a PT). Remember that stat ratings increase percentages additively with intrinsic bonuses, such as Power Screen or Heat Blast. This means that, the bigger the intrinsic bonus for a particular pool, the better that stat becomes. This is why Juggs stack so much defense: they have very large intrinsic defense bonuses.

 

As far as your definition of "better" raid results, I have to disagree. My average DTPS is between 1200 and 1500 on most fights, never going about 1600 unless I am completely messing something up (obvious exceptions include Master/Blaster and I am sure Revan).

 

Have you tanked HM Sword Squadron Unit 1? Heck, even tanking Unit 2, I don't know if I've ever seen a log going below 1600 unless the raid group in question was outright ignoring the tank swap (thus, offloading damage onto Unit 1). Tanking Unit 1 and getting less than 1.7k DtPS would be insane. Even with objectively perfect positioning (only unavoidable damage taken), precisely optimized cooldown usage and some 198 gear, assassin tanks (who take the least damage on that fight) are getting about 1.7k.

 

When you tank HM Torque, do you manage the turrets correctly, or do you allow them to chew on the raid? A corollary to this would be to ask how much damage your melee DPS are taking on that fight, since correct turret tanking represents a swing of about 700 DtPS in a mDPS's log. Tanking HM Torque while correctly managing the turrets is going to push your DtPS up pretty close to 2k, regardless of class (though it should be lowest on a PT).

 

My point is not to criticize you as a player or cast any doubt on your expertise, but your numbers simply do not fall within the realm of plausibility based on what I've seen, both in my own logs and in the logs of many other tanks in other groups.

 

Basically the only thing I can think of that would drop your DtPS down to the levels you're listing is if you're a Jugg (Sonic Barrier) and your group is using a Sorc healer who keeps you bubbled on CD. This artificially deflates DtPS, since you're effectively getting healed without the original damage appearing in the log summary.

 

Gearing by your numbers would, granted, provide different results, but I maintain that "better" is a point of view at this level of discussion.

 

Gearing by my numbers will reduce your DtPS to a minimum. If there is an alternative itemization which reduces DtPS by any amount below what my numbers generate, then something is wrong with my math.

 

You're right though that "better" is a point of view. My point is that you need to be very precise when you say "better". I don't see anywhere in the OP where you define what it is you're looking for exactly. If you can't quantify your goal, then you have no way to objectively pursue it.

 

Last update on your numbers that I saw was posted in 2013. If you have updated numbers based on the new operations' damage profiles I would very much like to see them.

 

The post was deleted. I've updated the numbers four times since 2013, including once in the week following the release of 3.0. I haven't updated for the new operations yet (though I do have 10/10 HM logs, thanks to some members of the community) mostly because I've been absurdly busy IRL.

Edited by KeyboardNinja
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See if this quoting stuff works out, never tried it with multiple parts before.

 

25% is an incredibly arbitrary line in the sand. What if I said 26%? 24%? What are your objections to those points instead? What if I gave you a stat budget of 8k? Would you still refuse to go above 25%?

 

Twenty-six or 24% have no objections, 25% does not mean 25.00000000000%. Current accuracy BiS is 760, but at the 198 level with 5 pieces and 3 augments you are sitting at 756 which is equal to 99.99%, which is effectually the same. Then you keep mentioning I need a "goal" in mind, 25% is a goal. If you go over or under it will have different effects, but as you are stating a couple percentage points is not earth-shattering. Plus, the percentages are listed to show how equal they can be, the stat budget is what truly matters.

 

What if stat budget of 8k? - Really? That's your argument? Obviously with different stat pools comes different math. Because with different stat pools BW/EA are going to change the DR values (Crit is a perfect example of this).

 

…why would you want to? You're wasting a lot of points to diminishing returns on defense, trying to make your percentages reach the same levels that a Jugg gets nearly for free with their baseline class bonuses. You're also failing to take advantage of your own bonuses (as a PT). Remember that stat ratings increase percentages additively with intrinsic bonuses, such as Power Screen or Heat Blast. This means that, the bigger the intrinsic bonus for a particular pool, the better that stat becomes. This is why Juggs stack so much defense: they have very large intrinsic defense bonuses.

 

Why? Really? The first point I make is -

 

Let me preface this by saying this guide is based on an average of mitigation across all 3 tanking classes. Meaning if you add up your armor, stats, and health all 3 classes should have roughly the same DTPS per fight (obvious variances not included), achieved by having similar stat percentages. If this is NOT a style of tanking that you believe is viable you can save your time, you will not agree with anything I am about to say.

 

You also fail to see the logic behind what is being shown. The point I am trying to make is that is it not about what tank you are currently playing, you should be able to achieve the same amount of survivability, before factoring in cooldowns, based on your stats alone. If you go through an entire tier of operations as an Assassin with your Defense rating in the 700's, Shield in the 1400's and Absorb in the 1700-1800's and your survivability is exactly where you want it you can then look at your percentages and try to achieve the same on the other classes, same goes for if you started on a Juggernaut or Powertech, although your stat distribution would be different based on specific DR's to that class (obvious difference is Assassin's have light armor and therefore take more base damage than the other 2, which is balanced by the fact they have roughly the same percentage difference higher in their Absorb rating). Or one could just say 'mean mitigation', it is simpler.

 

And unless I am reading the rest of it wrong (based on your use of 'intrinsic bonuses' and 'better'), I completely disagree with you. Let's take the PT - in your discipline you have bonuses that give you 4% Absorb, 4% Defense. and 2% Shield. You also have Heat Screens, Heat Blast, and Shield Enhancers - these are all flat percentages and none of them care how much of that stat you currently have, they will give you only the flat percentage listed. Could I go up on Shield/Absorb on my PT? yeah, but I could also defend 5% more of the time (on applicable fights). Given the shear amount of up-time I have on Heat Blast's 25% buff I feel my points are better spent elsewhere. Juggernauts stacking Defense - ok, cool, you can hit 30% (ish) with your buffs, but your Shield/Absorb ratings are going to get you annihilated in fights that have very little to defend.

 

Gearing by my numbers will reduce your DtPS to a minimum. If there is an alternative itemization which reduces DtPS by any amount below what my numbers generate, then something is wrong with my math.

 

Did you not also say -

 

To be clear, I'm not claiming that my numbers are gospel.

 

And yet now you are saying your numbers are the best possible numbers in the game to be strived for and achieved? And that the only better mitigation attainable would be if you made an error?

 

The post was deleted. I've updated the numbers four times since 2013, including once in the week following the release of 3.0. I haven't updated for the new operations yet (though I do have 10/10 HM logs, thanks to some members of the community) mostly because I've been absurdly busy IRL.

 

Ok, then why does this post - http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=790085 - by you 3 days ago list to the number the exact same stat differentials as this post - http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=792434 - which quotes you from 2013? I fail to see how that is updated.

Edited by Jethsidi
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