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Devs/Mods: Make a Choice


L-RANDLE

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As I look at these airwaves daily, I always see stuff popping up like "nerf this", "buff that", etc, etc. While I try to contribute constructively most of the time, many get frustrated enough with the plight of PvP that constructive things are like needles in a haystack, and the real issue gets masked in a "vortex of horsecrap"(courtesy of Bob Brenly). Simply put, I am requesting this:

 

Make a change in the resolve mechanic/CC [EDIT]and balance some classes[/EDIT] first, before your do any rebalancing.

Whether it's bubble stun, "wrecking ball" maras, "chainstunning/stunlock", OPERATIVES(!), or CC in general, the Resolve mechanic needs to be addressed, again. And, if applied correctly, most of this might actually go away...

 

This is how I see it (a short history of SWTOR):

Operatives and others were adjusted because of "stunlocking"/having too much CC- Instead adjusting the CC affect, you nerf the DPS. (?)

 

People still complained about "stunlocking"- You adjust more DPS and/or change or downright remove procs in some cases. Changing entire playstyles/specs. (?)

 

Complaints about Maras/Sents ensued. Instead of adjusting them, you adjust the entire system to be more "cc friendly" to be able to "stop" them. (?)

 

Pigeon-hole classes into certain specs/ACs because of the above actions (See bubble stun & JK/SW (smash)populations). (?)

 

The CC in this game is WAY too strong/abundant... Always has been. Every class shouldn't have two or three stuns, every class shouldn't have multiple roots, etc, etc. It's too late... They have them now. So what to do?

 

Since "reverting" is rarely, if ever, done, I won't suggest reverting the elimination of "penalization" for overlapping stuns/cc. Instead I say:

 

Change the rate of decay of the resolve timer: While in-combat the rate should be slower than it currently is. Far too often the usefulness of full Resolve, is minor compared to the CC available in a WZ. The gap needs to be closed. Not a ton, but some...

 

Change when the resolve decay is actually active: Any switch to out-of-combat should STOP any resolve decay. This would eliminate any "stun, stun, stun, dead",........ respawn,.........."stun, stun, stun, dead" routine

 

Adjust classes in the new system: Ops, Merc, Sorc and for god's sake, keep the burst(Smash) in the game. Just give other classes the means to do it as well. That is what makes WZ's dynamic, Situational Burst, not CC's.

 

[EDIT] I also should explain what I mean by "situational burst". Prior to 1.2, situational burst was in the form of Relics/Adrenals. While the gap between not having them and having them was large, they did make WZ more dynamic because you had a "surprise up your sleeve." It meant that ANY class could solo a node, whether take, defend, or lose. CC and this nerf now almost makes that impossible (really the ONLY reason it happens now is due to someone being undergeared). That type of stuff enabled static objectives to change hands more frequently, and was 100% player controlled. Maps like VS didn't need a "wall" before the relic/adrenal nerf. I attributed that to the situational burst nerf...

 

I understand why you nerfed it. BioChem/Relic Stats(gear). But there needs to be some form of situational burst in the game.. Smash, while simplified, is something I would call Situational Burst. Whether it happens too often can be debated, but the actual numbers it puts up is about where everyone needs to be. The problem though is that only 1 class has that kind of situational burst, bad, bad, bad.

 

To have the burst to be able to instantly change the tide of a WZ, or knowing when/how to counter it to prevent the tide change is what makes PvP exciting, and (anecdotally) is why pre-1.2 PvP was "better". Again, CC, in it's current form, goes against this notion...[/EDIT]

 

[EDIT]Make Roots/Snares respect Full Resolve, but not increase timers or Resolve QTY in any other situation: Roots/Snares should not be an option against a person with full resolve.[/EDIT]

 

 

I know this will probably end up going by the wayside, but as I was making my change suggestion for Consu/Inquiz to have a viable alternative to bubble stun, I came to the realization that CC has A TON to do with the "nerf this"; "buff that" that the PvP forum is.

 

You really can't balance any of the classes unless this is more reasonable first.

 

 

TL;DR

Please change resolve, or at least re-examine it...

 

PS: Please sign or bump, if you think this needs to happen ASAP... Part of the "vortex of horsecap" is the fact that people rather argue over what's OP'd, than keeping a thread like this one going. Thanks in advance....

Edited by L-RANDLE
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My suggestion? Make the player immune to CC for 2 seconds after using a breaker.

 

I am not trying to disregard your suggestion, but you should be using your CC breaker at full resolve anyway...

 

There needs to be a global change first,.... then examine those types of issues..

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Nice constructive post, but you need some huge exaggeration with wildly inflammatory comments about how a particular class needs a gigantic nerf in order to hold the attention span here.

 

*Posting in here just so I can say I agree while I think most people will just agree and move on quietly.

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I am not trying to disregard your suggestion, but you should be using your CC breaker at full resolve anyway...

 

There needs to be a global change first,.... then examine those types of issues..

 

This actually isn't the case ( unless you are node guarding). With all the CC in this game, if you want to do the most damage while you are alive it is smartest to break hard stuns if they come at you first.

 

I would rather eat a flash bang and take 0 damage than eat a force stun and die.

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I agree. but if it's a sleep capper, or i'm stun locked. I'm going to use it. especially if I'm holding the huttball and making a push, or they are going to capture a node and then just force lift me.

 

obviously when to use your CC break is highly situational. that is not the issue here.

 

resolve needs to be reworked. plain and simple. there are too many forms of hard/soft CC, and not enough recourse for avoiding them

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I agree. but if it's a sleep capper, or i'm stun locked. I'm going to use it. especially if I'm holding the huttball and making a push, or they are going to capture a node and then just force lift me.

 

Or low HP, and need to pass or prevent a cap... I agree too.

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This actually isn't the case ( unless you are node guarding). With all the CC in this game, if you want to do the most damage while you are alive it is smartest to break hard stuns if they come at you first.

 

I would rather eat a flash bang and take 0 damage than eat a force stun and die.

 

Well it's situational, and I have been insta-breaking chokes lately to avoid smash building, but even Smash might not be so much of an issue if the Resolve issues was not so god-awful at the core of the mechanic. Same thing goes for bubble stun, "teams of stunlocking operatives", stun-range nerf, etc, etc..

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Nice constructive post, but you need some huge exaggeration with wildly inflammatory comments about how a particular class needs a gigantic nerf in order to hold the attention span here.

 

*Posting in here just so I can say I agree while I think most people will just agree and move on quietly.

 

Quit trolling Tech, you noobcake mcbabyface.... Does that work?

 

 

:D j/k

 

You screwed me up with the pic change....

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Well it's situational, and I have been insta-breaking chokes lately to avoid smash building, but even Smash might not be so much of an issue if the Resolve issues was not so god-awful at the core of the mechanic. Same thing goes for bubble stun, "teams of stunlocking operatives", stun-range nerf, etc, etc..

 

Yup I agree with you.

 

That's why I like specs like Deception assassin and gunnery merc because you can lower the time on your breaker by 30 seconds. May not seem like much but it helps you get out of sticky situations.

 

Specs like tactics vanguard and vigilance guardian / jugg should be able to aleviate some of this but they just need a SMALL touch up.

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See my thing is, the PvP in this game always needed to be more like the MMO version of Street Fighter.

 

People in the know, understand the differences between a Ryu v Ken v Akuma v Dan (lol, Dan is like the Jar-Jar of SF though). Then they had toons like Guile & Sagat that were range masters, and the grapplers. It then came down to skill and "burst" (remember when the stars came out after consecutive hard attacks?).

 

CC in this game eliminates that to a degree, but you can't get rid of it, so fix resolve decay..

 

After that, you can balance classes.

 

And I mean with a scalpel, not a guillotine.... *cough 1.2/1.5 *cough

Edited by L-RANDLE
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I don't see the issue here at all and I'm fine with current system. I like the complexity CC and resolve adds to game play. If your getting stun locked by 2 people all you need is a team mate to CC/knock back them. And like you said it's not common to remove features, but a lot of whats being suggested would make them less useful and have the same overall effect of dumbing down game play to a more simple form which to me would be a shame.
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I don't see the issue here at all and I'm fine with current system. I like the complexity CC and resolve adds to game play. If your getting stun locked by 2 people all you need is a team mate to CC/knock back them. And like you said it's not common to remove features, but a lot of whats being suggested would make them less useful and have the same overall effect of dumbing down game play to a more simple form which to me would be a shame.

 

CC in itself dumbs down the gameplay IMO...

 

CC is rarely used situationally(except for HB maybe). And with the move "not to punish overlapping stuns", it's going off all over the place; all the time. It's hard to worry about a teammate getting stunlocked, when you got a Smasher in your face that just rooted you.

 

It is almost an "oh ****" button and takes skill out of the game. While I would fully admit that is somewhat of a generalization, the whole point of PvP is to put the control in the players own hands whether its offense or defense, outnumbered or have an advantage. CC is more of a "I can't stop you, so stop moving for awhile" type of move. Most PvP games don't have that, even if they are objective based...

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The CC in this game is WAY too strong/abundant... Always has been. Every class shouldn't have two or three stuns, every class shouldn't have multiple roots, etc, etc. It's too late... They have them now. So what to do?

 

BW just seems to have a jones for CC. Not sure why, but the Devs really think the existence of massive amounts of CC make PvP super fun. The Devs seem to want CC to play a strategic and tactical role in PvP encounters. Yet as the system is currently designed, CC is simply being spammed for the most part without penalty and without any real tactical consideration.

 

The main problem is simple. The CC in this game is ubiquitous. The counters to CC are not. So I think BW could make two relatively simple changes/additions to combat/gameplay that would make CC more tactical and fun (as intended), without even having to mess with the Resolve mechanic. My suggestions:

 

- Add a craftable Anti-CC consumable (to counter the existence of CC consumables like grenades)

- Reset our CC Breaker when we die.

 

Start with those two changes and then consider lowering the cooldown on everyone's CC breaker.

 

What the Devs must understand is simply this...being grey-bar CC'd is unfun. Not being able to control your toon in any PvP environment is unfun. Give players options. Give them choices. The majority of players don't mind dying if they can go down fighting. Being repeatedly grey-barred with a loss of toon control is not only lame, it's bad game design. It's the only thing related to combat in this game that I don't really like.

Edited by DarthOvertone
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Nice post, and I agree.

 

Were you around when we asked for changes to resolve, much like what you posted today?

Since then EAware gave us Resolve 1.4. based on their "metics", which totally ignored everything the players had suggested.

 

So, my guess is that nobody in charge will read it, respond to it or act upon it.

And the next changes will be the opposite of what we ask for. :(

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CC in itself dumbs down the gameplay IMO...

 

CC is rarely used situationally(except for HB maybe). And with the move "not to punish overlapping stuns", it's going off all over the place; all the time. It's hard to worry about a teammate getting stunlocked, when you got a Smasher in your face that just rooted you.

If your playing against people not using it situationally then they probably suck and whats the big deal they should be easy.........I'm guessing it's "hard" when you play against people who understand how to use it. and in turn want it dumbed down so it's not "hard"

It is almost an "oh ****" button and takes skill out of the game. While I would fully admit that is somewhat of a generalization, the whole point of PvP is to put the control in the players own hands whether its offense or defense, outnumbered or have an advantage. CC is more of a "I can't stop you, so stop moving for awhile" type of move. Most PvP games don't have that, even if they are objective based...

Call it oh Sh^t button if you like but you have on to, and who knows how to utilize it best for the situation wins.......... and what does it matter what other games have or do not? that's a silly argument.

 

but sure it makes it easier

Edited by Pvtcarnage
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but sure it makes it easier

 

IDK Carn...

 

The with the vast quantity of CC available, there is not a need to use it as a tactic currently though. Maybe its just the hard/soft stuns I got a problem with, but CC is the main culprit of PvP being in this miserable state (along with Rank que barriers). With the type of change I propose, it will increase its use as a tactic.

 

By 'hard", I mean it's frustrating seeing your healer g-banged by two smashers while you are sitting there stunned, and most of the time, you are almost dead before the stun wears off.. I am not trying to compare other PvP games per se, but what makes PvP "fun" is the fact that players are 100% responsible for their production and skill level. They are never not(I know; double negative) in control of their toon. You really can't even judge a player's "skill" with all the CC flying around. I used Street Fighter as an example because I am "skilled" at that game (well in my circle of friends; but was ranked fairly high in the online rankings in the latest version). I knew my toon and others toons and opponents (yes, even online opponents through rankings) sooo well, that I knew if I did what I was suppose to do, I would be "unstoppable". CC is counter intuitive to this type of notion, competitveness, and teamwork, whether a tactical CC or not.

 

I know I might be dating myself with the whole Street Fighter thing. I been "around the PvP block", and CC is bad design in PvP as a whole. Don't get rid of it, just adjust it. Then talk class balance...

 

 

Thanks for keeping it real as well. Good shtuff, here....

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As I look at these airwaves daily, I always see stuff popping up like "nerf this", "buff that", etc, etc. While I try to contribute constructively most of the time, many get frustrated enough with the plight of PvP that constructive things are like needles in a haystack, and the real issue gets masked in a "vortex of horsecrap"(courtesy of Bob Brenly). Simply put, I am requesting this:

 

Make a change in the resolve mechanic/CC first, before your do any rebalancing.

Whether it's bubble stun, "wrecking ball" maras, "chainstunning/stunlock", OPERATIVES(!), or CC in general, the Resolve mechanic needs to be addressed, again. And, if applied correctly, most of this might actually go away...

 

This is how I see it (a short history of SWTOR):

Operatives and others were adjusted because of "stunlocking"/having too much CC- Instead adjusting the CC affect, you nerf the DPS. (?)

 

People still complained about "stunlocking"- You adjust more DPS and/or change or downright remove procs in some cases. Changing entire playstyles/specs. (?)

 

Complaints about Maras/Sents ensued. Instead of adjusting them, you adjust the entire system to be more "cc friendly" to be able to "stop" them. (?)

 

Pigeon-hole classes into certain specs/ACs because of the above actions (See bubble stun & JK/SW populations). (?)

 

The CC in this game is WAY too strong/abundant... Always has been. Every class shouldn't have two or three stuns, every class shouldn't have multiple roots, etc, etc. It's too late... They have them now. So what to do?

 

Since "reverting" is rarely, if ever, done, I won't suggest reverting the elimination of "penalization" for overlapping stuns/cc. Instead I say:

 

Change the rate of decay of the resolve timer: While in-combat the rate should be slower than it currently is. Far too often the usefulness of full Resolve, is minor compared to the CC available in a WZ. The gap needs to be closed. Not a ton, but some...

 

Change when the resolve decay is actually active: Any switch to out-of-combat should STOP any resolve decay. This would eliminate any "stun, stun, stun, dead",........ respawn,.........."stun, stun, stun, dead" routine

 

Adjust classes in the new system: Ops, Merc, Sorc and for god's sake, keep the burst(Smash) in the game. Just give other classes the means to do it as well. That is what makes WZ's dynamic, Situational Burst, not CC's.

 

 

 

I know this will probably end up going by the wayside, but as I was making my change suggestion for Consu/Inquiz to have a viable alternative to bubble stun, I came to the realization that CC has A TON to do with the "nerf this"; "buff that" that the PvP forum is.

 

You really can't balance any of the classes unless this is more reasonable first.

 

TL;DR

Please change resolve, or at least re-examine it...

 

PS: Please sign or bump, if you think this needs to happen ASAP... Part of the "vortex of horsecap" is the fact that people rather argue over what's OP'd, than keeping a thread like this one going. Thanks in advance....

 

Some seem to get off topic so I thought I would quote this back up, great post, just wish they would listen.

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