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Conquest Feedback and Upcoming Changes

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Conquest Feedback and Upcoming Changes
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SelenaCat's Avatar


SelenaCat
03.26.2018 , 08:12 AM | #521
Quote: Originally Posted by Helgram View Post
  • Take every conquest activity in the game and figure out how many iterations of that activity you want to require to hit the weekly personal goal, divide the goal by that number, and award that number of points, per toon, per iteration.

If you want to foster diversity among conquest events, then create something extra for each conqeust event that rewards additional points, while ensuring that folks can still cap their toons (all their chosen toons, within reason) doing only their chosen activity. For example, Gree operation and Gree dailies for Gree week; Bounty contracts for Death Mark; Bonuses to GSF (above and beyond what's required to cap normally) for Clash in Hyperspace.
This is almost exactly the method I would use to distribute conquest points. Figure out an approximate amount of active playing time you want to require to complete conquest on a single character, and then just multiply whatever fraction of time each activity takes by the total to give a baseline amount of points awarded.

For example, if you choose 10 hours total time base (which would be 4 hours with full stronghold bonus), and kept the old 20k total, you would need to reward approximately 2k conquest points per hour spent. (I personally would use about half that amount of time, doubling all these numbers, but I used it for easier math.)
  • Planetary heroic (approx. 3-4 minutes each): 125 CQ points, or some multiple based on completing the daily planetary. (These likely would be specific to the invasion theme, rather than counting for all heroics)
  • PvP/GSF (approx. 15-20 minutes): 500 CQ points, with some bonus (1.5x or 2x) for a win.
  • Daily flashpoint (approx. 30 minutes): 1k CQ points
  • Daily uprising (approx. 20-25 minutes): 750 CQ points
  • Daily operation (I would assume 30 minutes for this: approximately halfway between the 1 hour it takes for most full runs and the 15 minutes it takes for a lockout. Since ops provide some of the best CXP/loot rewards, so you can afford to be a little stingier in rewards): 1k CQ points

After assigning base values for every week, then provide bonuses for whatever activity you want to highlight for that given invasion. Boost FPs? Give more points for that week. Specific FP's/ops, world bosses, event weeklies, win 10 PvP matches, etc., and base it on the approximate amount of time it takes to complete each activity. That will still allow the "I mostly play SWTOR for one reason" crowd to still participate in CQ (and by extension, participate in endgame activities), while also providing an incentive to vary activities week by week for those that like to participate in a wider variety of activities.

masterceil's Avatar


masterceil
03.26.2018 , 08:57 AM | #522
Quote: Originally Posted by SelenaCat View Post
This is almost exactly the method I would use to distribute conquest points. Figure out an approximate amount of active playing time you want to require to complete conquest on a single character, and then just multiply whatever fraction of time each activity takes by the total to give a baseline amount of points awarded.

Spoiler
I mostly agree with this post, except I wouldn't screw my Guild's hard-working Operation noobies like that. To solve the problem of lockout farming, I think you should just get points for each boss - at around your 15 minute value (500 CQP). Perhaps 250 per boss and just 500 for the last boss in an op if that seems too much for, say, Nefra or Bonethrasher.

Either way, 1000 CQP is too low for a full op, but too high for just farming last boss.
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Quraswren's Avatar


Quraswren
03.26.2018 , 09:27 AM | #523
Quote: Originally Posted by masterceil View Post
I mostly agree with this post, except I wouldn't screw my Guild's hard-working Operation noobies like that. To solve the problem of lockout farming, I think you should just get points for each boss - at around your 15 minute value (500 CQP). Perhaps 250 per boss and just 500 for the last boss in an op if that seems too much for, say, Nefra or Bonethrasher.

Either way, 1000 CQP is too low for a full op, but too high for just farming last boss.
I would love to see it per boss.

I think it would need to be slightly more conquest points as well given you get nothing for losing or the group falls apart which happens. Unlike PVP and the participation reward for just being there.

You could form a group and get nothing, because of that chance at zilch. I think the PVE runs need more points to their base conquest point pay out but per boss would be the best move. Encourage whole ops runs.

In saying that I don't have a problem with last boss lockouts though. They take about as long as one PVP match so it's a wash. Plus you can only run them as long as you have alts. Thats a limiting factor when it comes to LO runs as you need healers and tanks in most cases. Unlike in PVP, you can just keep running with the same toon if you want.
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TUXs
03.26.2018 , 09:45 AM | #524
Quote: Originally Posted by Quraswren View Post
I would love to see it per boss.
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vaporousmist's Avatar


vaporousmist
03.26.2018 , 11:46 AM | #525
So after the "revamp" and the accompanying rage i felt at ALL THE THINGS said revamp entailed, i took the rest of my week to chill and have instead been reading what others had experienced/felt with said changes. Many i agree with, several that i don't. Let's discuss
CRAFTING One thing i have found (or found a lack of) is a true understanding of what it is to craft for conquest. The devs obviously don't get it and i would wager it's because they don't participate in it.
Misconceptions about conquest crafting:
  1. It's easy
  2. Crafters don't have to work as hard as me on a weekly basis (mostly heard from PvPers)
  3. Crafting awards too many points and it's pay to win
  4. "crafting was contributing too much to the overall competition of Conquests" ~the devs
Let's talk about why each excuse/reason is wrong.
1: it is NOT easy to compete in a crafting conquest. The smaller the number of true/hardcore crafters you have in your guild, the more prep and lead time it takes. i come from a smaller guild and to prep for conquest against the major guilds takes months full of countless hours of farming not to mention crafting those mats into components.
2: crafters work just as hard as you folks do AND we do it WITHOUT the advantage of consistent rewards for our efforts. for every 15 minutes you spend in a PVP match, you get a reward when you're done with it. for every 15 minutes of crafting i do, i get to SPEND credits on buying/companion missions for white mats to match what i've farmed. Additionally to that, in order to have the credits to buy those white mats, we have to go out and do additional content to farm credits so we can afford the white mats. So in order to participate in a crafting conquest, crafters have to actually work twice as hard as the PVP/Eers in order to be able to craft, which leads directly into item 3.
3: now, i'm biased because i'm obviously a crafter and i think my time spent working in the game should be better rewarded, but crafting should definitely not be considered as overly compensated for points. let's discuss the math involved in crafting. it costs you nothing, save repair costs or gear upgrades, to participate in PvP/E (and as previously mentioned, crafters must also do to earn credits to pay for their mats). SO here's a little crafting math for you. to craft a stack of 100 ea grade 8 and 9 components it costs me, IN WHITE MATS ONLY, 400,000 credits (if i am buying from the vendor and not doing companion missions). and out of those 100 components i get a base return of 25 war supplies. IF i can craft 1000 components in an hour, i am SPENDING 4 million credits to compete in conquest with 250 war supplies. those war supplies will take (at max comp lvl 50 on a single toon) approximately 7 1/2 hours to craft during conquest. so time spend gathering, crafting components and transforming in to war supplies is 10-11 hours with a total return of a BASE of 625000 points. any conquest crafter worth their salt will have sunk millions upon millions of credits into their strongholds to get a point boost of 150%. so let's total this up, 3 hours of lead work (farming and crafting components), 4 million credits, 7 1/2 hrs crafting time DURING crafting week (for a grand total in time of ~11 hours) and a grand total of 937500 points. when was the last time a PVP/Eer spent 11 hours of their time and 4 million credits to participate in conquest. now plug aaaaaalllll that lovely information into an equation that allows you to see how much time and effort your players put into this game to net 70 MILLION points in a single crafting conquest week especially when those are small guilds with 5-10 crafters tops. we as crafters work D**N hard and pay through the nose to participate in conquest. we deserve every. single. point. garnered in this manner.
4: Musco/Keith, you boys have GOT to be kidding. aside from the math i just laid out for you, you have repeatedly nerfed crafting in conquest. we started out with repeatable crafting every week. we were nerfed down to 3 weeks (4 since you've added iokath but that's a joke cuz there's only 1 planet that whole week), nerfed when we had to start crafting components instead of just using base mats. on a non-crafting week we can get 10,000 points MAX PER LEGACY. how is this excessive? you have done your level best to punish crafters and "even the playing field" for the other player styles. This latest nerf is WAY TOO FAR. Crafting weeks are SUPPOSED to cater to the players who enjoy farming and crafting. we don't do it because we HAVE to. we do it because we WANT to. You have obviously made these changes because you don't understand your own content and the effort that this undervalued set of players puts in to your game.

Quote: Originally Posted by Darkgift View Post
Bring back Crafting......the way it was. Maybe change the reason people are exploiting the crafting. Maybe by making the Flash Point/ Ops Difficulty more realistic. If players could get the same reward to time spent ratio for completing and Ops/Flash Point as Crafters did for Farming to Completion they would run more group stuff. Instead you took the Opposite route and made the crafting as difficult as completing Veteran Flash Point. So instead of creating enjoyment, you created anger. (Yes I am saying the problem is not the crafting, It is the Difficulty to Enjoyment ratio of the rest of the game.)

Sincerely,
Disgruntled Fan
Disagree on "exploiting" crafting. as detailed above, it's hard work to participate in crafting and no way to exploit it. Agree that crafting is not the problem here, the problem is the perception that crafting is an "easy win" system.

Quote: Originally Posted by olagatonjedi View Post
People want everything to be fast and easy, and that's why the quality of the MMO genre has worsened over the past decade. Keep asking for fast and easy, and you'll get what you want until you dont get anything.
There was nothing fast or easy about conquest, with maybe the exception of NS/Balmorra heroics weeks. There should be equal reward for time spent. work is fine, grind is not. and that's all this revamp is: G-R-I-N-D.

Quote: Originally Posted by Mustercriter View Post
I really never understood what anyone had against crafting week on conquest.
I've read posts that stated crafting your way to the top of the leaderboard is stupid. Why? It's crafting week!! Crafting WAS the main focus, before the changes. Anyone can craft stuff. Anyone.
What was so annoying about the old conquest crafting?
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Quote: Originally Posted by olagatonjedi View Post
You can still play for conquest, and once you are done with one toon, you can actually enjoy doing just the stuff you truly enjoy, rather than the very specific conquest tasks. It's a good change for the game, just maybe not for your personal experience.
This game is all about personal experience. and by revamping in the way they have, the devs have taken personal choice and experience out of the mix. They have decided what content is enjoyable from their perspective. no one HAS to participate in conquest, but for those that do want to and enjoy the direction it gives for their play style on a week to week basis, these changes have crapped all over the idea of getting rewarded for doing the content you enjoy doing.

Every player in this or in any other MMO is a strikingly different individual with their own preferences. In their effort to make conquest more varied, they have done the opposite. Players largely like knowing what objectives are coming so they can plan their play accordingly, as a guild or a solo artist. This new system is pure chaos, with little reward to encourage participation.

Aside from completely rolling back (which the devs have already proven they are unwilling to do given the upcoming patch tomorrow), here a some things that definitely need fixing for conquest to be viable again and save subscriptions:
  • planetary bonuses need to come back. Guilds don't pick planets based on the rewards. they pick planets based on objectives, bonuses and where they think they can/need to win. additionally, if bonuses return, you can keep the point targets for tiered planets at their current levels.
  • Crafting: either roll it back or fix it. fixing it would entail requiring fewer of the lower grade mats to make a single war supply (nerf to 4 down from 6/8) and/or fix the farming for all mats from grades 2-7. there is currently no efficient way to gather these mats in the quantities currently required.
  • If you really need some randomness in your life, include some kind of new random daily objective for conquest with a super bonus that relates to the type of week it is.
  • Legacy objectives: ditch these. part of this game is about alts and you've killed them. again.
  • Fix the UI, too much confusion between was is repeatable and was is once per legacy.

the single compliment i have for the revamp is the guild point target for rewards. It's always frustrating to have worked so hard all week only to get pushed into 11th place at the 11th hour. if your guild puts in the effort, they should reap the reward. so kudos on that point.

Quote: Originally Posted by Darkgift View Post

Bring back repeatable rewards for PVP'ers and Flash Point runners. If that is what they enjoy about the game then why should their game time be less valuable to their guild then a Crafter or Ops runner.

Quit trying to FORCE people to play this game the way YOU want them too. And just allow them to enjoy the parts of it they they enjoy. No matter what you do someone somewhere is going to find an exploit. All you did is force the crafting exploiters to find another exploit. (a.k.a. The Ops Lock Out Exploit.) So quit punishing everyone else who IS NOT using exploits.

Sincerely,
Disgruntled Fan
Every week of conquest pigeonholes a specific type of play style, whether it be ops, pvp, flashpoints, gsf, heroics, crafting or events. No single play style is better than any other. The MMOs that recognize and foster this mentality are the ones that have a lasting player base. The devs cannot continue to depend on the fact that "it's star wars!" to save them and their game. stop forcing people to play the way YOU THINK they should. provide content and availability for all play types and you will consistently have a happy community. Darkgift nails it on the nose. One of my guildies has been with star wars since beta. has been the most positive, persistent, committed player, even through the many frustrations he's experienced in the game and this latest bout of thoughtlessness was too much even for him. I know an entire guild of crafters and pvpers who saw the changes and walked away the same day. Devs, i urge and implore you to make some drastic changes for the better. for the love, listen to your community for once! or own up to what your intentions for this game really are, make the cuts and stop stringing us along. to join with the myriad of other voices who have all said the same thing: i have 15 days left on my sub. please change my mind. i really really want you to. The reason you see so much anger is because your players love the game and hate to see the mottled mess it's become.

Boomdiddy's Avatar


Boomdiddy
03.26.2018 , 11:53 AM | #526
Quote: Originally Posted by Quraswren View Post
I would love to see it per boss.

I think it would need to be slightly more conquest points as well given you get nothing for losing or the group falls apart which happens. Unlike PVP and the participation reward for just being there.

You could form a group and get nothing, because of that chance at zilch. I think the PVE runs need more points to their base conquest point pay out but per boss would be the best move. Encourage whole ops runs.

In saying that I don't have a problem with last boss lockouts though. They take about as long as one PVP match so it's a wash. Plus you can only run them as long as you have alts. Thats a limiting factor when it comes to LO runs as you need healers and tanks in most cases. Unlike in PVP, you can just keep running with the same toon if you want.
The only problem I foresee with this is it will make it significantly harder to get someone to que for in-progress ops when somebody drops from a group. Then you have people who will have lockouts on bosses that won't be able to finish ops because everybody wants full points.
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Quraswren's Avatar


Quraswren
03.26.2018 , 12:00 PM | #527
Quote: Originally Posted by Boomdiddy View Post
The only problem I foresee with this is it will make it significantly harder to get someone to que for in-progress ops when somebody drops from a group. Then you have people who will have lockouts on bosses that won't be able to finish ops because everybody wants full points.
If their goal is to get away from last boss LO, then its the nature of the beast but lowering the points for OPS isn't helping anyone feel like their time is worth it.
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Lhancelot's Avatar


Lhancelot
03.26.2018 , 12:07 PM | #528
Quote: Originally Posted by vaporousmist View Post
So after the "revamp" and the accompanying rage i felt at ALL THE THINGS said revamp entailed, i took the rest of my week to chill and have instead been reading what others had experienced/felt with said changes. Many i agree with, several that i don't.

Let's discuss:

CRAFTING One thing i have found (or found a lack of) is a true understanding of what it is to craft for conquest. The devs obviously don't get it and i would wager it's because they don't participate in it.

Misconceptions about conquest crafting:
  1. It's easy
  2. Crafters don't have to work as hard as me on a weekly basis (mostly heard from PvPers)
  3. Crafting awards too many points and it's pay to win
  4. "crafting was contributing too much to the overall competition of Conquests" ~the devs


Let's talk about why each excuse/reason is wrong.

1: it is NOT easy to compete in a crafting conquest. The smaller the number of true/hardcore crafters you have in your guild, the more prep and lead time it takes.

i come from a smaller guild and to prep for conquest against the major guilds takes months full of countless hours of farming not to mention crafting those mats into components.


2: crafters work just as hard as you folks do AND we do it WITHOUT the advantage of consistent rewards for our efforts. for every 15 minutes you spend in a PVP match, you get a reward when you're done with it.

for every 15 minutes of crafting i do, i get to SPEND credits on buying/companion missions for white mats to match what i've farmed.

Additionally to that, in order to have the credits to buy those white mats, we have to go out and do additional content to farm credits so we can afford the white mats. So in order to participate in a crafting conquest, crafters have to actually work twice as hard as the PVP/Eers in order to be able to craft, which leads directly into item 3.


3: now, i'm biased because i'm obviously a crafter and i think my time spent working in the game should be better rewarded, but crafting should definitely not be considered as overly compensated for points.

let's discuss the math involved in crafting. it costs you nothing, save repair costs or gear upgrades, to participate in PvP/E (and as previously mentioned, crafters must also do to earn credits to pay for their mats).

SO here's a little crafting math for you. to craft a stack of 100 ea grade 8 and 9 components it costs me, IN WHITE MATS ONLY, 400,000 credits (if i am buying from the vendor and not doing companion missions). and out of those 100 components i get a base return of 25 war supplies.

IF i can craft 1000 components in an hour, i am SPENDING 4 million credits to compete in conquest with 250 war supplies. those war supplies will take (at max comp lvl 50 on a single toon) approximately 7 1/2 hours to craft during conquest. so time spend gathering, crafting components and transforming in to war supplies is 10-11 hours with a total return of a BASE of 62,500 points.

any conquest crafter worth their salt will have sunk millions upon millions of credits into their strongholds to get a point boost of 150%. so let's total this up, 3 hours of lead work (farming and crafting components), 4 million credits, 7 1/2 hrs crafting time DURING crafting week (for a grand total in time of ~11 hours) and a grand total of 93,750 points.

when was the last time a PVP/Eer spent 11 hours of their time and 4 million credits to participate in conquest. now plug aaaaaalllll that lovely information into an equation that allows you to see how much time and effort your players put into this game to net 70 MILLION points in a single crafting conquest week especially when those are small guilds with 5-10 crafters tops.

we as crafters work D**N hard and pay through the nose to participate in conquest. we deserve every. single. point. garnered in this manner.


4: Musco/Keith, you boys have GOT to be kidding.

aside from the math i just laid out for you, you have repeatedly nerfed crafting in conquest. we started out with repeatable crafting every week.

we were nerfed down to 3 weeks (4 since you've added iokath but that's a joke cuz there's only 1 planet that whole week), nerfed when we had to start crafting components instead of just using base mats.

on a non-crafting week we can get 10,000 points MAX PER LEGACY. how is this excessive? you have done your level best to punish crafters and "even the playing field" for the other player styles. This latest nerf is WAY TOO FAR.

Crafting weeks are SUPPOSED to cater to the players who enjoy farming and crafting. we don't do it because we HAVE to. we do it because we WANT to.

You have obviously made these changes because you don't understand your own content and the effort that this undervalued set of players puts in to your game.


This game is all about personal experience. and by revamping in the way they have, the devs have taken personal choice and experience out of the mix. They have decided what content is enjoyable from their perspective. no one HAS to participate in conquest, but for those that do want to and enjoy the direction it gives for their play style on a week to week basis, these changes have crapped all over the idea of getting rewarded for doing the content you enjoy doing.

Every player in this or in any other MMO is a strikingly different individual with their own preferences. In their effort to make conquest more varied, they have done the opposite.

Players largely like knowing what objectives are coming so they can plan their play accordingly, as a guild or a solo artist. This new system is pure chaos, with little reward to encourage participation.

Aside from completely rolling back (which the devs have already proven they are unwilling to do given the upcoming patch tomorrow), here a some things that definitely need fixing for conquest to be viable again and save subscriptions:

  • planetary bonuses need to come back. Guilds don't pick planets based on the rewards. they pick planets based on objectives, bonuses and where they think they can/need to win. additionally, if bonuses return, you can keep the point targets for tiered planets at their current levels.

  • Crafting: either roll it back or fix it. fixing it would entail requiring fewer of the lower grade mats to make a single war supply (nerf to 4 down from 6/8) and/or fix the farming for all mats from grades 2-7. there is currently no efficient way to gather these mats in the quantities currently required.

  • If you really need some randomness in your life, include some kind of new random daily objective for conquest with a super bonus that relates to the type of week it is.

  • Legacy objectives: ditch these. part of this game is about alts and you've killed them. again.

  • Fix the UI, too much confusion between was is repeatable and was is once per legacy.


the single compliment i have for the revamp is the guild point target for rewards. It's always frustrating to have worked so hard all week only to get pushed into 11th place at the 11th hour. if your guild puts in the effort, they should reap the reward. so kudos on that point.

Every week of conquest pigeonholes a specific type of play style, whether it be ops, pvp, flashpoints, gsf, heroics, crafting or events. No single play style is better than any other. The MMOs that recognize and foster this mentality are the ones that have a lasting player base.

The devs cannot continue to depend on the fact that "it's star wars!" to save them and their game. stop forcing people to play the way YOU THINK they should. provide content and availability for all play types and you will consistently have a happy community. Darkgift nails it on the nose.

One of my guildies has been with star wars since beta. has been the most positive, persistent, committed player, even through the many frustrations he's experienced in the game and this latest bout of thoughtlessness was too much even for him.

I know an entire guild of crafters and pvpers who saw the changes and walked away the same day. Devs, i urge and implore you to make some drastic changes for the better. for the love, listen to your community for once! or own up to what your intentions for this game really are, make the cuts and stop stringing us along.

to join with the myriad of other voices who have all said the same thing: i have 15 days left on my sub. please change my mind. i really really want you to.

The reason you see so much anger is because your players love the game and hate to see the mottled mess it's become.
Fixed the wall of text so I could read it.

Good points.
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ShadowGovernator's Avatar


ShadowGovernator
03.26.2018 , 03:07 PM | #530
Quote: Originally Posted by PorsaLindahl View Post
So unless Eric left out some things for tomorrow's patch, I'll leave you all with a parting gift.
Spot on!!
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