Hey,

 

We're perfectly aware that this difference exists.

 

It's because, shockingly, Agents are not Inquisitors.

 

The mirror class for the Agent is the Smuggler, the mirror class for the Inquisitor is the Consular.

 

Just in case it wasn't clear: We have different classes in the game - that means they actually have different abilities, energy systems, costs, etc. In short: It's working as designed.

 

Georg

 

 

edit: fixed a typo where "Consular" should have appeared!

What I think he is trying to say sir, is that the healing capabilities of the classes are different and the Sorc/Sage has the advantage of energy regeneration not necessarily healing capabilities as I have a 50 scoundrel champaign gear healer and he great on the move just have very little burst heal and sometimes fall short of energy when Cool Head/Agent mirror is on CD. Sorc/Sage can sustain heals far greater than the operative/scoundrel and yall know it's true.

And in any normal job, if you choose to "let off some steam" by insulting your customers, YOU GET FIRED. Stress is never an acceptable excuse for this sort of behavior by an employee. But we shouldn't be expecting anything to happen here, since we've never seen anyone else post on these boards and so all complaints (including those people who reported his post) most likely go straight to his desk in the first place.

 

All I'd like is one thing. Just one: the name of a developer who plays a level 50 Operative on a public server. I'd prefer both one DPS Op and one Healer, but at this point I'll settle for one of either. I don't need to know what in-game name he/she uses, what server, what specific build, et cetera. I just want an honest official confirmation that there's someone involved in the development process who is fully aware of our issues through personal experience. When our only point of contact is Georg, there exists the real possibillity that none of our complaints, suggestions, or experiences are ever getting to those people whose job it is to determine game balance. This is supposed to be the entire job of a "community representative", and as far as we can tell it's not being done, at least for our class.

 

Without any kind of information exchange, we're never going to improve. We can complain or suggest whatever we want, and nothing significant might ever be done since all of Georg's "working as intended" statements have supported the view that while there are differences between the classes, they're already factored into the balance assessments. The official position is that barring a couple bugs the classes are well-balanced; there can be no change made as long as this belief persists within the developers' conversations.

Indeed. It's quite possible concerns are being heard and being addressed, but it's also the community representative's job to respond to those concerns and let the playerbase know they are being heard.

Georg's post might have been more well received if we were all in a better mood. But many Operatives/Scoundrels have been feeling neglected, and joking posts with no actual info on what might be done for our class certainly doesn't help matters.

Such pro devs we have working on this game. Their attitude about smugglers/agents and the reason they're the least played makes me want to vomit. Hint: it's not because everyone wants to shoot lightning.

 

Try: horrible looking armor, energy starved classes that are useless after blowing their wad, sniper/gs being the only class that has to deal with shielding and evade chances, the worst set bonuses in the game, buggy cover system, buggy abilities, inferior skill sets, inferior sustained DPS, least mobility, least utility, subpar storyline (at least for smugglers), and I'm sure other smugglers/agents can keep the list going.

Agreed fire them all and get a new armor design team, pvp team, and don't even start about the Ilum team!

And in any normal job, if you choose to "let off some steam" by insulting your customers, YOU GET FIRED. Stress is never an acceptable excuse for this sort of behavior by an employee. But we shouldn't be expecting anything to happen here, since we've never seen anyone else post on these boards and so all complaints (including those people who reported his post) most likely go straight to his desk in the first place.

 

All I'd like is one thing. Just one: the name of a developer who plays a level 50 Operative on a public server. I'd prefer both one DPS Op and one Healer, but at this point I'll settle for one of either. I don't need to know what in-game name he/she uses, what server, what specific build, et cetera. I just want an honest official confirmation that there's someone involved in the development process who is fully aware of our issues through personal experience. When our only point of contact is Georg, there exists the real possibillity that none of our complaints, suggestions, or experiences are ever getting to those people whose job it is to determine game balance. This is supposed to be the entire job of a "community representative", and as far as we can tell it's not being done, at least for our class.

 

Without any kind of information exchange, we're never going to improve. We can complain or suggest whatever we want, and nothing significant might ever be done since all of Georg's "working as intended" statements have supported the view that while there are differences between the classes, they're already factored into the balance assessments. The official position is that barring a couple bugs the classes are well-balanced; there can be no change made as long as this belief persists within the developers' conversations.

I can't disagree with much in this post.

By the way, Spatz...you ever considered stopping by the Healer Forums? We are always looking for people who know how to have decent, useful discussions.

As for GZ....this seems par for the course for him.

I think he is trapped in that he can't comment on the in-depth threads: either it results in him admitting the class is broken (which he can't say regardless of truth), or he reveals something not approved for release. Giving a real, decent response would take time and vetting it past PR and legal. In contrast, shooting down trolls is fast, easy, and makes him feel better.

We did get hints in the Q&A that they know the truth. After dismissing the problem as non-existent and telling us to learn to play, he then admitted there was "room for improvement," which is PR-speak for "broke as hell." He said there are changes coming to Operative/Scoundrel healing, and of those changes, a "sizable chunk" will be in Patch 1.2 with more to follow that weren't completed yet.

That you have to translate and read between the lines just goes to show how badly proper information exchange is severely lacking in this game. Are Operatives viable, yet noncompetitive because they are underperforming? You can't say that because it will tarnish their image and give people reason to exclude them? Fine. Give us some details on these coming changes. Let us see what you think will fix the class. The scale of those changes will let us know how bad you think the problem is, and how seriously you are taking it.

They need to assign some CSRs who are allowed to speak on their boards.

At the very least, these CSRs should come into threads that have suggestions or complaints and simply say "Your concern has been noted, and added to our board." And then actually keep a board where you track class concerns so that they can be looked into, and, if valid, addressed.

Even better would be if they CSRs were kept in the loop and able to say things like "this has been looked into, and is being addressed. I cannot say more at this time" or "Checked. Fixed. This is what's being done and it will be in the next weekly/major patch."

Even better than that would be if they knew enough about the class mechanics to provide real answers. How do the in-house testers balance their energy use on different encounters. GZ claims Surgical Probe is burst, which is laughable, so what rotations are your Operatives really using? Ammo vs Heat? Same on the back-end or is the 33% vs 39% cut-off real? Etc.

In all honesty, the last one is probably a pipe dream, but the first two are what I consider a baseline expectation from customer service.

While I agree that you would get fired for such actions, JD_2020 from Treyarch as well as Garvin and Draakul in SWG did this on a regular basis and they were never fired.

True. The analogy fails when you enter an environment where the corporation honestly doesn't care about what its customers say or do. This actually occurs surprisingly often, as many industries have a near-constant customer base, but it's still not something to be done lightly even when you're absolutely sure there's no possibility of negative consequences. Contrary to the old saying the customer is rarely right, but he IS the one paying the money, and if he has other viable options for that money, "immersion" will not prevent him from leaving no matter what color his lightsaber can be.

In this case, I'm sure they've written off the few vocal Operative critics on these boards as statistical outliers. The problem with this line of thinking is that in an MMO, ALL customer feedback is from a statistical outlier; the vast majority of the players are blissfully unaware of the conversations occurring here, and will begin and end their connection to this game without ever contacting someone in customer relations directly. This is not a good thing; if there IS an imbalance (which is what we've positted) then every Operative is experiencing it on some level and will suffer accordingly. If any significant fraction of these Operatives get fed up with the game and quit, it's unlikely anyone at Bioware will ever be told explicitly WHY those people quit. Hence, the need to at least entertain the possibility that posts on these boards represent the views of a substantial fraction of the playerbase within each class.

Even if the developers are SURE we're just fine, I'd like to see some sort of confirmation that they've actually considered the possibility that the balance is still a bit out of whack for us. More specifically, I'd like to see what makes THEM believe that we're working as intended; is their only contact with the class through "metrics", or have they actually played the game?

Or, to quote Oliver Cromwell, "I beseech you, in the bowels of Christ, think it possible you may be mistaken."

They need to assign some CSRs who are allowed to speak on their boards.

Not necessarily. They could go the "guide" route, with non-employee players appointed to speak for the customers, which'd remove the need to repudiate an employee who says something wrong. As long as we could be sure our views on balance and design were at least reaching the development team, I'd be happy; right now, the only indication we have that they're aware of any issues are vague phrasings in various statements.

Conversely, the other common option is to pick "class leads" among their internal testers whose job also includes monitoring each class' board and forwarding the most commonly mentioned balance issues to the dev team, but who would never speak to the customers directly. No statements means no PR nightmares. This was why I asked in a previous post for some confirmation that any developer plays a level 50 Operative on a live server; even if that person never had to answer to us directly, we'd at least have some assurance that our concerns were being addressed without having to parse Georg's statements to see if there's anything notable between the lines.

But yes, having more CSRs on here would be a huge improvement.

Not necessarily. They could go the "guide" route, with non-employee players appointed to speak for the customers, which'd remove the need to repudiate an employee who says something wrong. As long as we could be sure our views on balance and design were at least reaching the development team, I'd be happy; right now, the only indication we have that they're aware of any issues are vague phrasings in various statements.

 

Conversely, the other common option is to pick "class leads" among their internal testers whose job also includes monitoring each class' board and forwarding the most commonly mentioned balance issues to the dev team, but who would never speak to the customers directly. No statements means no PR nightmares. This was why I asked in a previous post for some confirmation that any developer plays a level 50 Operative on a live server; even if that person never had to answer to us directly, we'd at least have some assurance that our concerns were being addressed without having to parse Georg's statements to see if there's anything notable between the lines.

 

But yes, having more CSRs on here would be a huge improvement.

Yeah, I'm pretty broad in my use of the term. The practical function is what matters, not the name of the position.

I flagged Georg's post as a troll.

Brilliant. Did the same.

To see that this thread instead of any number of far superior ones got a response at all made me laugh. The content of the post actually angered me. I agree wholeheartedly with all the others who have rightfully pointed out that this response and the attitude it conveys is a slap in the face to the entire operative community.

I encourage anyone else who found GZ's post unacceptable to flag it as a troll post as well and take advantage of the space they give for explanation.

Brilliant. Did the same.

 

To see that this thread instead of any number of far superior ones got a response at all made me laugh. The content of the post actually angered me. I agree wholeheartedly with all the others who have rightfully pointed out that this response and the attitude it conveys is a slap in the face to the entire operative community.

 

I encourage anyone else who found GZ's post unacceptable to flag it as a troll post as well and take advantage of the space they give for explanation.

I did the exact same thing. I can't believe that their "Principal Lead Combat Designer" is actually trolling a customer when there are multiple threads on both the Scoundrel and Operative forums with general concerns with regards to class balance. With only seven responses from any devs on the Agent/Smuggler forums, you would think they would be generally interested with paying customer feedback, but it really is clear to me now they don't truly care about the Smuggler/Agent class one bit.

Hey,

 

[...] shockingly, Agents are not Inquisitors. [...]

 

Just in case it wasn't clear: We have different classes in the game - that means they actually have different abilities, energy systems, costs, etc. In short: It's working as designed.

 

Georg

Yes! Best yellow post I've ever seen on here. No kissing butt. No apologizing. Just tellin' it like it is. Awesome

Operative here. I, for one, appreciate the differences in classes. Rather that than a game with only one class in different skins.

Yes! Best yellow post I've ever seen on here. No kissing butt. No apologizing. Just tellin' it like it is. Awesome

 

Operative here. I, for one, appreciate the differences in classes. Rather that than a game with only one class in different skins.

Yes, exactly what we need... Developers trolling our forums rather than actually responding to any of the constructive threads.

Yes! Best yellow post I've ever seen on here. No kissing butt. No apologizing. Just tellin' it like it is. Awesome

 

Operative here. I, for one, appreciate the differences in classes. Rather that than a game with only one class in different skins.

Yes. You appreciate being inferior to another class.

We get it.

Not necessarily. They could go the "guide" route, with non-employee players appointed to speak for the customers, which'd remove the need to repudiate an employee who says something wrong. As long as we could be sure our views on balance and design were at least reaching the development team, I'd be happy; right now, the only indication we have that they're aware of any issues are vague phrasings in various statements.

 

Conversely, the other common option is to pick "class leads" among their internal testers whose job also includes monitoring each class' board and forwarding the most commonly mentioned balance issues to the dev team, but who would never speak to the customers directly. No statements means no PR nightmares. This was why I asked in a previous post for some confirmation that any developer plays a level 50 Operative on a live server; even if that person never had to answer to us directly, we'd at least have some assurance that our concerns were being addressed without having to parse Georg's statements to see if there's anything notable between the lines.

 

But yes, having more CSRs on here would be a huge improvement.

CSR's have been responding to all of my threads.

Just in case it wasnt clear, the system for the sorc/sage makes them FAR better healers in a team based scenario

And? So? Therefore?

Yes! Best yellow post I've ever seen on here. No kissing butt. No apologizing. Just tellin' it like it is. Awesome

 

Operative here. I, for one, appreciate the differences in classes. Rather that than a game with only one class in different skins.

No one, at least I dont think, wants smugglers/operatives to be more like sages. You can have different ways of accomplishing the same thing, and as long as both ways lead to "equal results" it all works out. I want sages and smugglers to have different ways to do it, but both put forth equal effort and achieve equal results.

The problem most people, myself included, has right now is that sages need far less "effort" to accomplish the same goals than smugglers. All things being equal (gear/player skill/party makeup etc) the sage is going to be the superior choice by sheer simplicity of playstyle and abilities they posses.

Smuggler healers have more things to keep track of, more work involved and get less results from the same effort as a sage. Its not balanced to be that way, and its not fair for people who enjoy playing a smuggler/operative over a sage type healer.

Hey,

 

We're perfectly aware that this difference exists.

 

It's because, shockingly, Agents are not Inquisitors.

 

The mirror class for the Agent is the Smuggler, the mirror class for the Inquisitor is the Consular.

 

Just in case it wasn't clear: We have different classes in the game - that means they actually have different abilities, energy systems, costs, etc. In short: It's working as designed.

 

Georg

 

 

edit: fixed a typo where "Consular" should have appeared!

I think you missed the point of my original post.

Something highlighted in several other threads I have made.

It is a simple fact. Universally accepted. Sorcerers have stronger heals.

They have better utility.

The two main heals for each class.

Operative = Kolto Injection - Costs 25 Energy.

Sorcerer = Dark Infusion - Costs 55 Force (Talent that every Sorcerer healer has reduces that cost to 50 Force.

Operative regeneration rate is variable. Sorcerers regeneration rate is fixed.

It is not fair to compare energy/force regeneration to max resource pool. Instead, compare it to the main heals for each class (Kolto Injection and Dark Infusion).

If our Energy drops below 60 our regeneration rate is 3 energy per second. If our Energy drops below 40 our regeneration rate is 2.5 energy per second. If our Energy drops below 20, our regeneration rate is 2 energy per second.

Comparison between these primary heals for each class as a function of Energy/Force regen.

Operative;

Drop below 60 Energy = 3 Energy/s; Takes us 8.333 seconds to regenerate 25 energy to cast our primary heal.

Drop below 40 Energy = 2.5 Energy/s; Takes us 10 seconds to regenerate enough energy to cast our primary heal.

Drop below 20 Energy = 2 Energy/s; Takes us 12.5 seconds to regenerate enough energy to cast our primary heal.

Sorcerer;

Regardless of their Force level = 8 Force/s; Takes a Sorcerer 6.875 seconds to regenerate the Force required to cast their heal.

So. Tell me how this is fair.

If an Operative does not stop casting to ensure he keeps 60% of his Energy bar filled a Sorcerer regenerates the Force required to cast their heal at a faster rate.

Essentially. Sorcerer has better regen if an Opreative drops below 60 Energy.

8.333s - 6.875s = 1.458s.

So if an Operative drops below 60% energy, Sorcerers regenerate enough force to cast their primary heal 1.458 seconds faster.

10s - 6.875 = 3.125s.

So if an Operative drops below 40% energy, Sorcerers regenerate enough force to cast their primary heal 3.125 seconds faster.

12.5s - 6.875 = 5.625s

So if an Operative drops below 20% energy, Sorcerers regenerate enough force to cast their primary heal 5.625 seconds faster.

This means, that a Sorcerer who has a base pool of 500 (enough to cast Dark Infusion 9 times), has a better regen rates if an Operative uses more than 40 points of Energy.

They get stronger heals.

Much larger resource pool.

And better regeneration rates (relative to the actual cost of their abilities) than an Operative, if that Operative does not make sure he only uses a max of 40 Energy.

Kolto Injection costs 25 Energy; We are given a window of 40 Energy.

That makes no sense.

Sorcerer with 500 base pool gets better regeneration rates than an Operative, if the Operative uses more than 40 Energy.

Pre-pull, you want to get two stacks of Kolto Probe on the tank. Cast Kolto Injection twice to get two stacks of Tactical Advantage. Burn one stack to get Stim Boost.

 

Your main priority is to keep to 2 stacks of Kolto Probe on the tank. Not only does this provide constant healing, it also gives a chance to grant Tactical Advantage. After that the Operative has a lot of options.

 

Any time you have 2 stacks of Tactical Advantage, you want to burn it, so not to waste any Medical Engineering procs. First, refresh Stim Boost if possible. Next use Surgical Probe to heal lowest health person or tank depending on the fight.

 

If someone still needs healing, now is the time to use Kolto Injection.

 

If you have less than 60 energy and no immediate healing needs done, use Diagnostic Scan to heal and recover energy.

 

If you have more than 60 energy and no immediate healing needs done, use corrosive dart or shiv.

 

If the whole group takes damage, use Recuperative Nanotech. All dps have an ability to keep themselves alive long for you to heal the tank up and then worry about them. Whether they use it or not is player dependent.

 

If the tank takes spike damage, you can spam Surgical Probe till above 30% health. Then rotate Kolto Injection and Surgical Probe. After the tank is back at a safe health and still has 2 stacks of Kolto Probe, you will probably need to use Adrenaline Probe to recover energy above 60.

 

I know the above looks a lot like a priority system, but it should not follow it strictly. An Operative needs to use her Crowd Control abilities also. Preventing damage is just as important as healing it. The Operative has Debilitate (4 sec stun), Orbital Strike, Flashbang (blinds up to 5 enemies), and Slice Droid that can be used in combat. While these can’t be used on bosses, bosses often have adds that they will work on. Pre-combat, the Operative has Sleep Dart. Also the Operative has Distraction, an ability interrupt. DPS and tank should cover that but you can’t always rely on them.

You sir understand, the Op however does not. I can't understand how these people don't realise its not about one ability vs another ability its about the mechanics of the class as a whole and utalising them correctly. Of course you cant say oh this ability vs this ability one is better because its about MUCH more than that.

These people who cry for nerfs and talk about 'balance' but don't understand how to play their class are so frustrating.

You sir understand, the Op however does not. I can't understand how these people don't realise its not about one ability vs another ability its about the mechanics of the class as a whole and utalising them correctly. Of course you cant say oh this ability vs this ability one is better because its about MUCH more than that.

 

These people who cry for nerfs and talk about 'balance' but don't understand how to play their class are so frustrating.

I don't understand what?

Do the analysis.

You sir understand, the Op however does not. I can't understand how these people don't realise its not about one ability vs another ability its about the mechanics of the class as a whole and utalising them correctly. Of course you cant say oh this ability vs this ability one is better because its about MUCH more than that.

 

These people who cry for nerfs and talk about 'balance' but don't understand how to play their class are so frustrating.

I think its totally about the mechanics as a whole. That is where I see a startling imbalance.

Its not just one ability vs another ability. Its the entire package.

Operatives/smugglers CAN do all content. I dont dispute that. They require VASTLY more effort than a sage does, which is what I have a problem with.

Nerfs or buffs need to be used, so both classes can accomplish the same goal with similar effort, thats all I want.

Considering this post:

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=332481

For example, see the part where kolto cloud (recuperative nanotech) heals the least and costs the most.

In the devs' eyes, operative & scounderal is working as intended.

Considering this post:

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=332481

 

For example, see the part where kolto cloud (recuperative nanotech) heals the least and costs the most.

 

In the devs' eyes, operative & scounderal is working as intended.

Why does sorcerer get better regeneration rates than an Operative, if the Operative drops below 60 Energy, given Sorcerers also get 500 Force.

That is working as Intended?

They get better heals, better overall regeneration and a larger resource pool.

Why does sorcerer get better regeneration rates than an Operative, if the Operative drops below 60 Energy, given Sorcerers also get 500 Force.

 

That is working as Intended?

 

They get better heals, better overall regeneration and a larger resource pool.

I agree with everything that you're saying besides the insinuation that good Operatives ever go below 50 energy without their Adren Probe off cooldown.

The real issue is that Operatives only have ~50 Energy, with a 2 minute cooldown to give them an extra 50. Sorcs have 600 Energy, and will always be able to easily replenish it with procs (6.2% chance not to proc with below average gear).

Hey,

 

We're perfectly aware that this difference exists.

 

It's because, shockingly, Agents are not Inquisitors.

 

The mirror class for the Agent is the Smuggler, the mirror class for the Inquisitor is the Consular.

 

Just in case it wasn't clear: We have different classes in the game - that means they actually have different abilities, energy systems, costs, etc. In short: It's working as designed.

 

Georg

 

 

edit: fixed a typo where "Consular" should have appeared!

Such a Professinal response from a Dev who can't be bothered to respond to a meaningful IA discussion but has no problem trolling the OP here. He was pointing out a desparity between the mechanics of classes not trying to say one was a mirror, it wasn't very hard to see that if you read it, even if I don't totally agree with it, but I guess you were worried that someone was picking on your pet class. I mean you all have done such an outstanding job thus far with running your game and fixing all the bugs I guess it gives you the right to troll the people playing your game, who by the way are providing you with a job, instead of providing a more dignified response to the complaint. You are a Dev and your statements carry more weight than anyone else in these forums and this is how you choose to use it? To make it worse someone higher in Bioware will see this and just erase the thread so it looks like it didn't even happen. If you can't reply in a manner befitting your station you should at least apologize to the OP and maybe after that try responding to some of the meaningful complaints in the IA section. I applaud your professionalism Mr Zoller and I see part of why things don't get done around here, I'll just go ahead and wait for my warning for daring to tell a Dev they were wrong but you're still an ***.

I'm not claiming to know exactly how OPs healing is. I play a powertech dps. I DO have a sorc healer, and a OPs healer alt. I agree at least at low level the sorc is seriously more powerful a healer (than again both my alts are VERY low level).

That aside, I'm presently in a guild that cleared 8 man Nightmare modes and recently move on to 16 mans, clearing both with Unyielding and Infernal titles. We have 3 healers. 1 merc healer and 2 OPs. I hear the merc going over heat about once per fight, and one of the OPs is a dedicated raid healer. I don't know healing assignments, because it isn't my job, but Healing is NEVER an issue.

TL: DR Sorc/sages arent needed. Enjoy the things that are different about each class. And I spoke with my OPs healers and they said they NEVER have energy issues. So whatever you are doing, you are doing it wrong.