What can I say... Some people just never learn. Of course by some people I mean the developer team. Here is my pearl of wisdom on why you are impotent to make open-world PvP on Illum work, heed it or not the choice is yours. The reason is glaringly simple: human nature. It is what you are failing to take into account, and have done so since before launch. This oversight may go unnoticed in single player games, however, this is an MMO and taking human nature into account is the essence of your job. But then you know that and it's why you ended up firing people left and right.

As it is right now the only reason majority people venture into the southern bowl is to do the two Gree reputation dailies NOT to PvP. Now I feel for the PvPers out there who actually want to PvP, however, what they get is not a challenge but rather wide-eyed PvEers who are desperately trying to get away but end up getting demolished. Now the good PvPers can only stomach so much of this and eventually let it go, but there are those sorry individuals out there, just as in RL, who enjoy inflicting misery on others and it's they that get to truly enjoy this event in the most perverse fashion. Is that really the kind of people you wish to produce content for?

The easy solution to this, and one that has been thrown around so much, is to simply avoid the PvP area if you don't want to get ganged. That is all well and good but it is not human nature to do so, and that's today's word. As developers you have utterly failed your community in not only failing to take human nature into the account, but for not listening to the hundreds of people on both the PvP and PvE side that this was a horrid idea! This is an MMO guys, either start treating it like one or have the guts to throw in the towel and admit that you can only handle single player games, you owe at least that much to your community.

It has been thrown around a lot that one of the worst things about this game is the ungrateful community, but the ugly truth is that the community is simply demanding things that have been a staple in the MMO world for years, and the developers are seemly powerless to provide it. All we want is a good (not the best one out the) MMO set in the SW universe we all enjoy.

Umm I am not asking for advice on how to do quests, I maxed out the weekly reputation in a few hours yesterday. I am simply stating that the event is a failure because the developers failed to take human nature and psychology into account.

I'm going to have to disagree, throwing up your hands and falling back to "it's human nature" is a universal cop-out. There are PvP quests, there are PvE quests. The PvErs (like myself) want the rewards for engaging in a contest they are ill-suited for and expect to be granted those awards without doing anything to win them (not like myself). That's just adolescent entitlement, and giving into that BS is a bad play for a game, long term.

Now, complaining that the rewards for PvP and PvE are wildly out of parity would be completely valid... except that they aren't (at least not that way). The equivalent PvE rewards are easier to get than the PvP rewards, and the biggest rewards are PvE only (the world boss). Any whining about "but I want to solo!" is even dumber. This is an MMO, MMO's are built around group activity. This is the most solo-able MMO i've ever played (and I love that, it's actually *why* I'm still here), quit whining (this is a general statement, not a targeted one).

The event is starting to look like a failure because it's simply BORING, that's all there is to it. There's no real story, nothing unique about the grind (except, perhaps, the extent of FFA PvP activity, but I've been keeping clear of that after getting horribly murdered a few times), it's just more of the same with some (very unimpressive) rewards that are only available for a limited time. That's all this event has really been when you boil it down to the basics: a small list of items that are on limited availability.

Wheee... I can barely contain my ambivalence... er, I mean excitement. Yeah...

I'm going to have to disagree, throwing up your hands and falling back to "it's human nature" is a universal cop-out. There are PvP quests, there are PvE quests. The PvErs (like myself) want the rewards for engaging in a contest they are ill-suited for and expect to be granted those awards without doing anything to win them (not like myself). That's just adolescent entitlement, and giving into that BS is a bad play for a game, long term.

 

Now, complaining that the rewards for PvP and PvE are wildly out of parity would be completely valid... except that they aren't (at least not that way). The equivalent PvE rewards are easier to get than the PvP rewards, and the biggest rewards are PvE only (the world boss). Any whining about "but I want to solo!" is even dumber. This is an MMO, MMO's are built around group activity. This is the most solo-able MMO i've ever played (and I love that, it's actually *why* I'm still here), quit whining (this is a general statement, not a targeted one).

 

The event is starting to look like a failure because it's simply BORING, that's all there is to it. There's no real story, nothing unique about the grind (except, perhaps, the extent of FFA PvP activity, but I've been keeping clear of that after getting horribly murdered a few times), it's just more of the same with some (very unimpressive) rewards that are only available for a limited time. That's all this event has really been when you boil it down to the basics: a small list of items that are on limited availability.

 

Wheee... I can barely contain my ambivalence... er, I mean excitement. Yeah...

Well I didn't even bother talking about how uninspired the event was, because I figured it was self explanatory. But back to my point, the reason it is so boring is precisely because grinding for no reward is contrary to human nature. Take away the carrot and the horse won't be too happy about a dangling piece of string...

As for the "long run" that's why I am taking the time to write this. If the developers don't start treating this as an MMO with everything that entails, and soon, there will be no " long run."

It has been thrown around a lot that one of the worst things about this game is the ungrateful community...

This is about the only part of your post I can agree with.

The problem with these forums is that it is replete with utterances from people who don't realize what they might want from the game is not shared by the other users.

Take, for instance, the disagreements you are having on this very thread: other players -- not BioWare -- disagreeing with you.

I hope we can agree that the more choice for players that BioWare offers, the better this game gets. And if you agree with that statement, accept that a large portion of players are enjoying this event -- myself included. And then choose to not participate in it.

- Arcada

The real problem is that the eaware team put PvE objectives with PvE co-operation involved into a PvP area. Instead of putting in PvP objectives like kill this many players or damage and so on. Who ever thought of that needs to leave or change the PvE to PvP objectives

The orbs thing is PvP in nature, but the droid hunting isn't, you're right. The thing is, if the PvP had been faction vs. faction, then the droid PvP quest *would* have been a great PvP quest (kill the other faction's droids while protecting your own), instead it all feels weird and arbitrary. I don't have a problem with FFA per se, but I feel that it was poorly designed within the Gree event.

This is about the only part of your post I can agree with.

 

The problem with these forums is that it is replete with utterances from people who don't realize what they might want from the game is not shared by the other users.

 

Take, for instance, the disagreements you are having on this very thread: other players -- not BioWare -- disagreeing with you.

 

I hope we can agree that the more choice for players that BioWare offers, the better this game gets. And if you agree with that statement, accept that a large portion of players are enjoying this event -- myself included. And then choose to not participate in it.

 

- Arcada

Selective quoting, my favorite! It's ok to say you don't agree with me on anything, you don't have misquote me. Speaking of disagreement, everyone is entitled to their own opinion and mine simply happens to be that this event fell short because the developers can't seem to get some very fundamental things about they way their customers react to these poorly made events. You would think this is the world's first MMO and they have nothing to go on.

As for giving people more choices, while generally it is a good thing, wasting even five minutes (which coincidentally appears to be how long they spent on thinking this up) on such a uninspired event, when the game is crawling with bugs that have existed since launch and only pile up with every patch, is anything but a good choice.

P.S. Not to be a grammar-nazi but "replete" is almost always used to refer to food, and while these forums are supposed to provide "food for thought" I don't think that's what you meant.

The real problem is that the eaware team put PvE objectives with PvE co-operation involved into a PvP area. Instead of putting in PvP objectives like kill this many players or damage and so on. Who ever thought of that needs to leave or change the PvE to PvP objectives

Exactly, it's like they can't tell PvE and PvP apart... Wait a minute that actually explains everything!

As regards asking for more inspired events, I'm 100% in favor of that.

But the complaint about the cross between PvE and PvP, I don't really get.

I got on last night run the event. Some of my friends were already on Ilum, so we grouped up and did everything including the PvP stuff. We didn't experience any "Lesson on Human Nature" as the OP pontificates.

I suppose had I not had any friends, I would have been demolished going into the PvP area. But seeing as how the PvP portion of the quests are optional, I probably would have skipped over them.

Anyway, sorry I just can't get behind all this fuss on having a world event in a PvP area. Similar complaints came up about the HK-51 quest. Didn't bother me. I just grabbed some friends and safely traversed Outlaw's Den. Did the same quest line on another level 50 early in the morning solo and was safe.

Much Ado About Nothing.

The easy solution to this, and one that has been thrown around so much, is to simply avoid the PvP area if you don't want to get ganged. That is all well and good but it is not human nature to do so, and that's today's word.

Can you elaborate on what you think human nature is?

If you're a PVEr with no group to help you out, avoiding a PVP area is not only the solution, but also the only logical thing to do. If you don't PVP, why would you go to a place where people PVP? How is that human nature?

If you are referring to the inquisitive part of human nature (that people want to see stuff for themselves instead of just avoiding what might harm them) it does exist but also bear in mind that curiosity killed the cat. And in this case the cat is well aware that going to a specific area will most likely get her killed and can choose to avoid that specific area.

It has been thrown around a lot that one of the worst things about this game is the ungrateful community, but the ugly truth is that the community is simply demanding things that have been a staple in the MMO world for years, and the developers are seemly powerless to provide it.

No.

Actually, the ugly truth is that people have become so self-centered and have such inflated sense of entitlement that anything which doesn't cater to their personal needs is useless, wrong and bad. Never mind that other people are enjoying that thing; if they aren't, no one should. But, quite frankly, bringing "human nature" into the mix doesn't make much sense. This is a product, not the legal system where parameters like human nature should be taken into account. And by the way, it's also human nature to want the best rewards for the minimum amount of work. Should they cater to that need too?

All we want is a good (not the best one out the) MMO set in the SW universe we all enjoy.

Let me show you some of the various different things that translate to a "good" MMO to different people.

All we want is WoW set in the SW universe we all enjoy.

All we want is Pazaak set in the SW universe we all enjoy.

All we want is better crafting set in the SW universe we all enjoy.

All we want is sitting in chairs set in the SW universe we all enjoy.

All we want is SSR set in the SW universe we all enjoy.

All we want is dyes set in the SW universe we all enjoy.

All we want is owPVP set in the SW universe we all enjoy.

etc etc.

"Good" means a whole lot of different things to different people and no matter what Bioware does, they will always fail to be a "good MMO" to those people that don't get exactly what they want. So, they might as well go their own way, choose what they want to put in their product and we always have the luxury of deciding whether those additions are worth our time and money.

Here is the thing. I'm not a PvPer in this game, I go to another game that is more... risky, shall we say than the PvP light this game has. I've done the PvP quests for the gree event. hooked up with three other guys in a pug and we traveled together. We didn't jump anybody, and only once did we get jumped and that was by a group that was larger than us and figured us for easy pickings (we were as they were all war hero geared). We still got our objectives completed, and had some fun as well.

The problem came in when one group decided they were going to prevent anybody (even their own faction) from doing the center pylon at all. I.E. preventing the completion of the quest JUST to be jerks. Not because they got a reward for it other than their jollies out of being the lowest sort of human being, a bully.

Pretty much, in anybodies book, that is wrong unless you are just like them in mindset.

The failure on this event is simply the FFA aspect. I think it's pretty wrong for players to be killing members of their own faction when the idea behind this game is Republic -vs- Empire. NOT republic -vs Republic or Empire -vs- Empire.

Frankly, whichever Dev thought that was a good idea and got it authorized by whichever supervisor... needs to be fired. It completely breaks the games Immersion when you have your own people shooting at you. THAT is the only real issue I have with the event. I don't even mind that some of it is in a PvP area with PvE objectives. Just the FFA aspect. Just dumb.

What can I say... Some people just never learn. Of course by some people I mean the developer team. Here is my pearl of wisdom on why you are impotent to make open-world PvP on Illum work, heed it or not the choice is yours. The reason is glaringly simple: human nature. It is what you are failing to take into account, and have done so since before launch. This oversight may go unnoticed in single player games, however, this is an MMO and taking human nature into account is the essence of your job. But then you know that and it's why you ended up firing people left and right.

 

As it is right now the only reason majority people venture into the southern bowl is to do the two Gree reputation dailies NOT to PvP. Now I feel for the PvPers out there who actually want to PvP, however, what they get is not a challenge but rather wide-eyed PvEers who are desperately trying to get away but end up getting demolished. Now the good PvPers can only stomach so much of this and eventually let it go, but there are those sorry individuals out there, just as in RL, who enjoy inflicting misery on others and it's they that get to truly enjoy this event in the most perverse fashion. Is that really the kind of people you wish to produce content for?

 

The easy solution to this, and one that has been thrown around so much, is to simply avoid the PvP area if you don't want to get ganged. That is all well and good but it is not human nature to do so, and that's today's word. As developers you have utterly failed your community in not only failing to take human nature into the account, but for not listening to the hundreds of people on both the PvP and PvE side that this was a horrid idea! This is an MMO guys, either start treating it like one or have the guts to throw in the towel and admit that you can only handle single player games, you owe at least that much to your community.

 

It has been thrown around a lot that one of the worst things about this game is the ungrateful community, but the ugly truth is that the community is simply demanding things that have been a staple in the MMO world for years, and the developers are seemly powerless to provide it. All we want is a good (not the best one out the) MMO set in the SW universe we all enjoy.

I agree with you on this. Whats worse is that this whole event will do nothing more than to fragment the already stressed community. Before , it was bad enough that Imp , Pub relations on the forums and in the game were stained (as expected faction vs faction) , but now its only gonna get worse as now Imps vs Imps , Pubs vs Pubs in this new pvp FFA area. Both factions are openly attacking each other (as expected in FFA) but then they hold it against each other and guilds are splintering co-operation in pvp (wz's and other areas) because of this. I've seen this splinter communities before.

I also think they should have set a barrior around the pvp/ffa area with a warning that wouldn't let you in if you didn't click ok or something. I've seen so many people (pve'ers) complaining that they didn't know it was a pvp/ffa area (altho its a laugh , i see the point).

All in all , the event doesn't take into effect the need for pvp dailies or rewards for them. Something else should have been done. Something like , make the whole current area pve (with the ability of pvp but random like in the north) and the real pvp area after you get to a certain reputation rank. Then you get to make a selection to go to a pve area or a pvp area where the groups are faction vs faction with valor for kills (or comms) but limited to 4 man groups. Just an idea.

Greetings from The Progenitor server!

We on our server deal with this easily!

WE FORM A LINE!

which then leads to the pylon. players who has the orbs all stand in one and the same line no matter of group. or faction (they guard us and the line. as do we. we guard them and the line). while the others of the team who dont have an orb stand guard around the pylon from any who see them above this! protecting the line and ensuring the line is kept. if you are about to lose the orb due to the time limit you ARE ALLOWED to switch with a a team mate by using standard emotes /point (at teammate) and then you back away. as the orb run out as a sign.

this removed all the stress of having to fight for the daily. YES it is PvP. yet not all want to go throgh the pain of being ganked doing a daily while others are "just" there for the kill. or to make sure others cant get their dailes done. (im watching you Crimson claw members)

All the guards stand around and all wait for the droid boss to spawn as well to provide a "waiting bonus" for everyone's work. killing the droid credit goes to all groups present at the kill. and it ensures the boss can be taken down easily without ganking to get the kill.

the point ot this is. Even in PvP there can be order. There can be a way to solve the agony for a solo player to get the daily done (face it you have been that person at some point) if you are in a bad time zone where you cant get players to join you or you just got off work and everyones already done it and refuse to help. This happend yesterday 13/2 all day on the progenitor. the line was kept for over six hours and long before i joined in. i know i was one of the guards helping to sort this for the last part of the day.

We had members on skype on both side of the faction which helped sort this in the faction /general chats.

Here is the thing. I'm not a PvPer in this game, I go to another game that is more... risky, shall we say than the PvP light this game has. I've done the PvP quests for the gree event. hooked up with three other guys in a pug and we traveled together. We didn't jump anybody, and only once did we get jumped and that was by a group that was larger than us and figured us for easy pickings (we were as they were all war hero geared). We still got our objectives completed, and had some fun as well.

 

The problem came in when one group decided they were going to prevent anybody (even their own faction) from doing the center pylon at all. I.E. preventing the completion of the quest JUST to be jerks. Not because they got a reward for it other than their jollies out of being the lowest sort of human being, a bully.

 

Pretty much, in anybodies book, that is wrong unless you are just like them in mindset.

 

The failure on this event is simply the FFA aspect. I think it's pretty wrong for players to be killing members of their own faction when the idea behind this game is Republic -vs- Empire. NOT republic -vs Republic or Empire -vs- Empire.

 

Frankly, whichever Dev thought that was a good idea and got it authorized by whichever supervisor... needs to be fired. It completely breaks the games Immersion when you have your own people shooting at you. THAT is the only real issue I have with the event. I don't even mind that some of it is in a PvP area with PvE objectives. Just the FFA aspect. Just dumb.

/nod

It was my thoughts exactly. Didn't mind the pve nature set in a pvp area. And i even did the first set of dailies solo. I always do new missions solo so i can guage how hard or easy they are , find easy and faster ways to do them and then pass that down to my guild. I had no problems with any of the pve missions solo and only got jumped 4 times trying to do the pvp areas. I'm sniper class , so no , didn't use cloaks. Just used LOS and took back roads and snuck around and jumped those between me and my objectives. I was able to solo the pvp objectives with 210 people on the Ilum instance i was in and the pvp part only took me 30min from start to finish.

The worse part of all was the wait for the pylon and then getting ganked by my own faction just as i'm about to cap , and they didn't even have a need to be there other than to be arses , the work around on the other hand i learned after getting ganked the second time. Always expect to get cloak ganked at the pylon , fake caping , then stun them then cap. Had no problems after that

TRE also seems to have the thing civilized (except few jerks of course).

But yesterday there were no issues with letting anyone complete it.

Riddle me this. Assuming we are talking about a PVE SERVER and not a PVE player who stupidly started on a PVP SERVER.

Why would the DEVS create content that includes any PVP at all? Why is there ANY open world PVP areas on a PVE server? Just take away the OPEN PVP areas out. Give players the option to completely block ANY PVP from ever happening. Make it so if I even try to target a YELLOW enemy player the game wont let me. Make it so my AOE abilities wont even land on the flagged enemy player. Problem solved. This way those that want it can have it and those that don't do not.

To those who are on PVE servers who say they like OPVP all the time and welcome this then I say to you goto a PVP server and play with other full time PVPrs. Don't take advantage of Developer mistakes.

The only thing about "human nature" I see, is a bunch of whining..

If you pick up the quest for PvP and wander out to the PvP area, why would you not expect to get killed?

You dont have to do those quest at all to get teh max. I only did the PvP quests one time, but they took too long IMO and I am already maxed out for the week.

I just dont understand the crying, I love having the pvpers out there because it gives a easy why to quick travel back to turn in my PvE missions when i am done.

If you expect the PvPers to not attack you because your flagged pvp and completing objectives, that's just silly.

Some people, roll on PvP server if you want PvP, maybe people want to do both......I love PvP but i dont want to PvP all the time, I like to choose when I flip the pvp flag on or not.

Alot of people enjoy both kinds of content.

So quit crying and if you dont like the PvP, dont PvP. If you cant look and see the red emblem and wait 5 mins for it turn off again, then who fault is that? Its your own.

I thought "Dark Intelligence" was talking about toons from their own faction capin their own (since it's a FFA zone). It's human nature to be an opertunist-- or something like that, but his lack of understanding of the term just made my brain hurt...

uh PVP, we've covered this before (like a lot). It was broken when they mirror-balanced the classes.

No but seriously, I have yet to read (in any thread), a cogent argument about what someone WANTS from open world PVP instead of flinging crap-logic about what phantom perks they are missing out on because other players stand in their way to achieving ultimate awesomness...

Dark Intelligence: you are hereby demoted to Muddled Inkling

TheNaHash: you are promoted to Imperial Party Planner (nice post dude)

Can you elaborate on what you think human nature is?

If you're a PVEr with no group to help you out, avoiding a PVP area is not only the solution, but also the only logical thing to do. If you don't PVP, why would you go to a place where people PVP? How is that human nature?

If you are referring to the inquisitive part of human nature (that people want to see stuff for themselves instead of just avoiding what might harm them) it does exist but also bear in mind that curiosity killed the cat. And in this case the cat is well aware that going to a specific area will most likely get her killed and can choose to avoid that specific area.

 

 

 

No.

Actually, the ugly truth is that people have become so self-centered and have such inflated sense of entitlement that anything which doesn't cater to their personal needs is useless, wrong and bad. Never mind that other people are enjoying that thing; if they aren't, no one should. But, quite frankly, bringing "human nature" into the mix doesn't make much sense. This is a product, not the legal system where parameters like human nature should be taken into account. And by the way, it's also human nature to want the best rewards for the minimum amount of work. Should they cater to that need too?

 

 

 

Let me show you some of the various different things that translate to a "good" MMO to different people.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

etc etc.

 

"Good" means a whole lot of different things to different people and no matter what Bioware does, they will always fail to be a "good MMO" to those people that don't get exactly what they want. So, they might as well go their own way, choose what they want to put in their product and we always have the luxury of deciding whether those additions are worth our time and money.

When I say human nature, my friend, I mean the way people interact with a task they are given and with other people that are thrown into the mix, which in our case is inevitable as this is an MMO. My whole point is that the developers did not take this into account and set up the event to fail as a result. The reason for this is that when given a task in a game, MMO or otherwise, people inherently want to complete it, and no one thinks that they will be griefed, even though they should expect it. This much the developers know, what they failed to take into account, however, is the nature of the griefers i.e. that they will keep harassing people because they get a kick out of it. Aka a recipe for disaster.

Oh and FYI, not just to you but to some of the others that have assumed this, I am not complaining about having problems with this, as I said I maxed out the weekly reputation on the first day, in other words I am not "whining". All I am saying is that the developers don't seem to grasp the notions I have described above and as a result create events where griefing is not only bound to happen (which garted sometimes just cant be helped) but even facilitated. And until they start taking human nature into account and treating this as an MMO they will keep making these same mistakes.

So as you can see human nature is very relevant to this.

As for your other point, that the community is somehow "entitled", we can argue until the cows came home. All of these quotes you have only prove my point that people want simple MMO staples and the developers are incapable of offering. Furthermore, even if people were "entitled" they have every right to be, ever hear the phrase "the customer is always right"? I harbor no illusions that anyone is capable of creating something that makes a diverse audience like the one in an MMO entirely happy, but when you are told by hundreds of people that something is a bad idea and you do it anyway... Well you tell me what that deserves.

I thought "Dark Intelligence" was talking about toons from their own faction capin their own (since it's a FFA zone). It's human nature to be an opertunist-- or something like that, but his lack of understanding of the term just made my brain hurt...

 

uh PVP, we've covered this before (like a lot). It was broken when they mirror-balanced the classes.

 

No but seriously, I have yet to read (in any thread), a cogent argument about what someone WANTS from open world PVP instead of flinging crap-logic about what phantom perks they are missing out on because other players stand in their way to achieving ultimate awesomness...

 

Dark Intelligence: you are hereby demoted to Muddled Inkling

 

TheNaHash: you are promoted to Imperial Party Planner (nice post dude)

Might want to read what I wrote in response to your party planner friend.

And ouch! "lack of understanding of the term" haven't heard that... well ever. Kitty has claws!

Self preservation is basic nature which also includes human nature. If you're a PvE player and you're knowingly going into the PvP section, or going to the quest terminal and saying "oh well this is labled PvP, no worries I'll do this anyway" then that PvE player is acting contrary to their nature. At some point people need to understand that you may not enjoy the event, but others do. I think the event is more of a test to see what needs to happen to create a PvP daily area like section X which I am fully in favor of.

Now I don't know if this is even feasible, but my idea on how to better the event in the future is to make it more of a warzone. You create a charging station in each faction's side, allow more than one person to charge the pylon at a time, put 3 nodes out there in contested territory. Drop 6 op groups per instance, and the goal would be you get an orb when you defend the node for 2 minutes or something. Then you have to fight your way back to the charging station (and an enemy team can kill your orb carrier and steal the orb from you). If you're a solo player, maybe it would be an event that could be placed in the group finder.

edit: Rewards would be that you get maybe 1 WZ com successful defense of the node, and another wz comm turning it in, or 1 wz comm for stealing an orb. That way you can play all day, but the rewards aren't so great that it becomes crazy.

Self preservation is basic nature which also includes human nature. If you're a PvE player and you're knowingly going into the PvP section, or going to the quest terminal and saying "oh well this is labled PvP, no worries I'll do this anyway" then that PvE player is acting contrary to their nature. At some point people need to understand that you may not enjoy the event, but others do. I think the event is more of a test to see what needs to happen to create a PvP daily area like section X which I am fully in favor of.

+1.

Every once and a while someone posts something reasonable on these forums. I suppose, "my friend" that is "human nature" and I didn't "take that into account".

- Arcada