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Class Changes: Deception Assassin / Infiltration Shadow

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Classes > Shadow / Assassin
Class Changes: Deception Assassin / Infiltration Shadow
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supertimtaf's Avatar


supertimtaf
10.10.2017 , 08:27 AM | #171
Quote: Originally Posted by Darrahsrhaw View Post
but i dont see 10.7k madness....
Yeah, and that's a problem too, Madness underperforming isn't something new, sadly.

Quote: Originally Posted by Darrahsrhaw View Post
i can do 10 parses on deception each will be higher than 9.7 but we all know how bad u are i think even during arsenal reign u were doing like 9k. even after nerf mercs are good dps for nightmare progression same will be with assassins
Still waiting to see your parses This isn't a contest of "look, I did it so you must suck". If you're basing your judgment by how well you and only you pretend to perform, then I don't see the point of trying to have a discussion with you.

Quote: Originally Posted by olagatonjedi View Post
I'm saying people using starparse and parsely for their argument are making an argument with incomplete data. For example, I parse every time I log in, but I don't upload my log files. Multiply that by thousands of people who play the game, but either don't parse or don't upload their parses, and it's easy to see where the "incomplete data" comes from. I certainly believe that there are players who parse higher and lower than the public parses on those sites. Just because some people like posting their numbers doesn't mean everyone does. Parsely gives a very small sample size of what the class is capable of, but again, it doesn't given the full spectrum of data, so it's not as reliable as people are claiming. I would trust the data of a company who has 100% of the parsing data (and can likely break it down by skill, class, level, gear rating, etc.) over a random collection of a few individually picked parses (remember, not everyone posts every parse they do either, even the people who post top-score parses).

BW has internal metrics that are showing that the classes that are getting nerfed are overperforming, regardless of how many times people come to the forums, using public parses, and state the opposite. And again, BW has stated that they are balancing for the AVERAGE DPS/HPS, which means that more than 1/2 of the players who play each class, regardless of skill, are dpsing/hpsing at a much higher rate than intended (on multiple classes). So while the top 5% of public parses may be either overperforming or underperforming, it doesn't matter - the numbers show the classes themselves, from 1-70, newbie to endgame are overperforming.
Just a quick info, there is actually a nice thing with StarParse, it's that it uploads recorded Parse automatically (I believe it's when you enable the "Raid" option). I think it could be usefull for you to see those as well :

How many character of each class is played per week (with StarParse enabled, ofc).
DPS/HPS/DtPS ratings, you can also adapt for the type of content/boss you want.
If you prefer there is also Raid Challenges, but they mainly are about HM and NiM content, an area where not everybody play, therefore I don't see these metrics as "average".

Still, your sample size jump from (for Shadow/Sin) 3 or 4 player per week to around a hundred per week, I completely agree, it's not much, but it's still a bigger representation than what peoples show on Parsely (This is the main difference between Parsely and StarParse. Parsely is a LeaderBoard, therefore peoples try to upload their best score, where StarParse is just there for the metrics on actual content, I still trust StarParse more than Parsely, even if the sample size stay little).

The point where I disagree with you is when you're saying that nearly half of the players are overperforming in terms of dps, and it is where StarParse can show you that -on its playerbase- (raiders, essentially) most of the shadow/sin players aren't "overperforming" in actual content. And, we're arriving on the "difficult" topic, this is where the major flaw of this system is shown. Just compare the dps shown on Parsely (fight against a dummy, static, no mechanics or defensive) and the dps shown on StarParse (actual boss fight with mechanics and damage), you'll see that there is a huge difference between those two data, because it's not the same content.

The flaw being that BW balance around theorical "target dummy", not actual content. Scoundrel dps have been nerfed for dummy parsing, indeed, because it was overperforming, you can see this on Parsely. Still, when you look at StarParse, on dps rating, you'll see that Scoundrel is still ahead in terms of dps, on a sample size of 220k character (which is more than the ten you see on Parsely). The problem I have with the way those nerfs are handled is not that they are nerfing an overperforming spec, it's more that the way those nerfs are done just show that they don't take actual gameplay into consideration. I'm not again balancing Deception or every other class. I'm against nerf that aren't made with common sense, based on real gameplay. Those change will impact strongly how well Deception can perform in raid, again, what peoples have calculated show a dps loss of about 800. From a PvE point of view, it's just absurd, because the spec isn't exactly way ahead of the others (sure it can perform great on a dummy, but since when a whole game has been represented by a single dummy fight ?). The nerf will just make it fall behind. Sure, the top players on Parsely will still do decent damage, but overall the class itself will lose its interest when compared to other.

I understand your point of view, for now I personally am in a "wait and see" phase. My last two months of sub expires just after server merges. I don't see the point of subbing again if I have to wait another year for a complete, intelligent and fair class balance (especially about those utility, who should have been taken into consideration before changing dps/hps). I just hope that I will be able to enjoy this game like I enjoyed it before. I'll just say that the constant delay or mess up are way funnier to read on the Dev Tracker than the actual game is entertaining for me.

Have a great day,
Eliadil - Darkness Assassin Darth Malgus

Feel free to use my referal link if you liked my help ! Free stuff for you and me !

olagatonjedi's Avatar


olagatonjedi
10.10.2017 , 08:52 AM | #172
Quote: Originally Posted by supertimtaf View Post
The flaw being that BW balance around theoretical "target dummy", not actual content.
You don't truly know this, nor do I. I would be more inclined to believe they are using a combination of in-game data in addition to theory-based target dummy metrics.

supertimtaf's Avatar


supertimtaf
10.10.2017 , 10:20 AM | #173
Quote: Originally Posted by olagatonjedi View Post
You don't truly know this, nor do I. I would be more inclined to believe they are using a combination of in-game data in addition to theory-based target dummy metrics.
They said it in their post if I remember correctly. "We don't balance class against content, instead we balance them around specific target dps". Those target are theorical value, otherwise we would have seen a real improvement in the live version for some class (Madness and Hatred received a buff. They are still bad on most fight of the game).
Sure, it may bring a class to its target dps on a dummy parse or on paper (still Carnage Marauder is ahead even after its nerf), but for now the live numbers aren't showing that the balance is made with actual content in mind. ^^ I'm not saying they aren't using in-game data, just that they are not using the correct data for this.
Eliadil - Darkness Assassin Darth Malgus

Feel free to use my referal link if you liked my help ! Free stuff for you and me !

minearne's Avatar


minearne
10.10.2017 , 11:39 AM | #174
And there is the ultimate strategy:

Up the jugg on dps dot, (heavy armor and max cd)
dawn the assassin on ddps, ( light armor and 3 cd's)
don't up assassin on dps dot, ( light armor and 3 cd's and the unique capacity " dead in 3 sec" ( doesn't exist i know !)

And pretending there is a calcul to the "target dps" on dummie ( we all saw you playing eric ... you can't do this ... we know lol !)

And so: darkmuscoe said ! this the way to be a good editor !^^ long life to swtor !!!

You are good to make unfunny joke really ! this is your best plan to reconversion after killing our game ...

Decidion's Avatar


Decidion
10.10.2017 , 07:14 PM | #175
Quote: Originally Posted by BraverDre View Post
Deception can reach 10,5k - 10,7k on a 2.5 mills dummy while most of sustained rDPS are at 9,5-9,8k dps. So nerf is needed.
Perhaps you should take a little more time looking at the leaderboards. There are a number of burst spec classes in the mid 10K range, besides Assassins/Shadows. So no, a nerf was NOT needed. End of story.

FlavivsAetivs's Avatar


FlavivsAetivs
10.10.2017 , 07:22 PM | #176
So I did some parsing (and so did Zannah, was talking to him today) and it seems the class got hit by about a 900 DPS nerf (Zannah went from 10500 to 9600 playing around with crit and alac for optimal stats, I went from about 10K to 9.1/9.2K)

On most bosses in HM, as an average shadow (before the nerf I could pull over 10K DPS), I could do 7500 DPS before the nerf. If I did things right, and worked my butt off, and did my rotation right, I can occasionally pull NiM-capable numbers (8K DPS).

After the nerf, I was doing 6600-6800 DPS on HM bosses tonight. That sucks. I mean that's absolutely abominable. Those are 4.0 numbers.

This was way, way, way too much. As I've said elsewhere, as a single target DPS the only thing Shadow has going for it is raw numbers. This class needs a serious buff to fix it.
A.K.A. Magister Militum Flavius Aetius
Eudoxia Eudoxya
<Aeterna Vigilantia>
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olagatonjedi's Avatar


olagatonjedi
10.10.2017 , 07:50 PM | #177
Quote: Originally Posted by supertimtaf View Post
They said it in their post if I remember correctly. "We don't balance class against content, instead we balance them around specific target dps".
When I read "we dont balance against content, we balance a target DPS", I interpret it as they do not balance DPS off of content that has the highest DPS check ops, such as Styrak. And it makes sense for a couple reasons:
1). Not all content is balanced evenly at this point in the game, so balancing for one specific op encounter could potentially severely unbalance other encounters.
2). Its much easier to balance the class as a whole and then individually tweak ops encounters where their target dps creates an impossibility to complete, such as styrak.

In any case, neither of our interpretations of their statement has been clarified enough to know for sure what source they base their target dps off of.

BraverDre's Avatar


BraverDre
10.10.2017 , 07:58 PM | #178
Quote: Originally Posted by Decidion View Post
Perhaps you should take a little more time looking at the leaderboards. There are a number of burst spec classes in the mid 10K range, besides Assassins/Shadows. So no, a nerf was NOT needed. End of story.
It was needed. End of story

Equeliber's Avatar


Equeliber
10.11.2017 , 03:30 AM | #179
Quote: Originally Posted by minearne View Post
Up the jugg on dps dot, (heavy armor and max cd)
These people who say DPS juggs have max defenses...
Deception sins are much better in DCD department...
Klorea, Sith Marauder Ael Vienne, Sith Sorcerer Eirinn, Sith Juggernaut Darth Malgus
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mrwayn's Avatar


mrwayn
10.11.2017 , 04:02 AM | #180
Quote: Originally Posted by supertimtaf View Post
The parse you linked is good, but not at all representative of what the class usually do. I find it very strange that he had to use saber strike and still reach 10k7 dps, saber strike would mean he messed up his rotation somewhere. But looking at the individual crit, it's no wonder... 75% crit on assassinate ? Srsly ? :') and I'm not even talking about the apm
The answer here is called "alacrity", I'm 99% sure about that. If you stack alacrity realy high (around 15.4%, I think) you'll get an unexpectedly high benefit from it. There is a thread somewhere on the forums talking about the reasons for it, it's mainly aimed at fury marauders, but after reading it, I tried the high-alacrity build on my deception sin. My apm increased by 2-3, damage went from around 9.8k to around 10.2k and yes, I had to use one or two saber strikes aswell, because the energy-regeneration-rate couldn't keep up with the increased apm. Once you reach 30% and can use assassinate it's no longer a problem though.
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